uNL do this more [Archive] - Two Plus Two Newer Archives

fees

07-16-2007, 03:51 AM

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

BB ($41.60)
UTG ($27.10)
MP ($48.50)
CO ($56.80)
Button ($125)
Hero ($126.10)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
1 fold, MP raises to $2, 2 folds, Hero calls $1.75, 1 fold.

Flop: ($4.50) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $3.6, Hero raises to $9.25, MP folds.

Final Pot: $11.70

Results in white below: 
No showdown. Hero wins $11.70. 

Villian is lag/tag player who will regularly cbet

zesi

07-16-2007, 04:15 AM

pure bluffs at uNL OOP?.. I can't imagine this is profitable.

Lego05

07-16-2007, 04:23 AM

Ah...I do that sometimes....when I do it's usually against TAG's who know how to fold and who c-bet a lot. This one was at 100NL actually though:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

SB ($151.55)
Hero ($101)
UTG ($341.35)
MP ($108.90)
Button ($155.10)

Preflop: Hero is BB with T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
2 folds, Button raises to $3, 1 fold, Hero calls $2.

Flop: ($6.50) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $4, Hero raises to $14, Button folds.

Final Pot: $14.50

Results in white below: 
No showdown. Hero wins $14.50.

zesi

07-16-2007, 04:49 AM

I guess I'd rather 3bet PF against a frequent stealer, to take it down right there.. most of the time. A preflop semibluff.

well.. what are pros and cons of each move?
I'm thinking about that right now..

problem with calling PF is that you let your opponent see a flop with a possibly speculative steal hand like SCs or AXs etc. and then pull a pure bluff on him..

if you 3bet and he calls you though.. you're in a somewhat big pot OOP with a speculative hand yourself. But that's just the problem with semibluffs in general.

Fiksdal

07-16-2007, 04:51 AM

I do this all the time againt the regs when they raise from CO/BTN. This move is a lot harder to re-re-steal against than a preflop 3bet. Even if they get an idea of whats going on, they cant get themselves to do something about it.-

K䲰䮥n

07-16-2007, 04:52 AM

BBV?

ama0330

07-16-2007, 04:54 AM

Bluff someone who is likely to be bluffing himself... sounds standard?

A10Chief

07-16-2007, 04:55 AM

I suppose this is like a PF float. I usually just 3-bet, but it's a line worth taking against the right player, if you have history with them I guess.

fees

07-16-2007, 05:39 AM

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Bluff someone who is likely to be bluffing himself... sounds standard?

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winnar

ciro bonano

07-16-2007, 05:42 AM

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Villian is lag/tag player who will regularly cbet

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What were your stats / observed hands on Villain? The few times I've tried this at 50NL at a laggy Villain they simply won't fold so I'm only doing this when I do have a hand.

jk1986

07-16-2007, 05:47 AM

[ QUOTE ]
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

BB ($41.60)
UTG ($27.10)
MP ($48.50)
CO ($56.80)
Button ($125)
Hero ($126.10)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
1 fold, MP raises to $2, 2 folds, Hero calls $1.75, 1 fold.

Flop: ($4.50) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $3.6, Hero raises to $9.25, MP folds.

Final Pot: $11.70

Results in white below: 
No showdown. Hero wins $11.70. 

Villian is lag/tag player who will regularly cbet

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oop I don't like this, it's gonna get messy when he has an ace and you have no idea whether he does or not, since you gotta assume he'd bet it as well as air + draws.

Triggerle

07-16-2007, 06:55 AM

I think position doesn't really matter here as the hand will be over for us when called.

djh860

07-16-2007, 07:20 AM

I think the idea for this type of play is to have outs. You don't seem to have and outs

Gelford

07-16-2007, 07:51 AM

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I think the idea for this type of play is to have outs. You don't seem to have and outs

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Checkraising A-high flops is the money - El Diablo Theorem

ciro bonano

07-16-2007, 08:37 AM

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Checkraising A-high flops is the money - El Diablo Theorem

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The only place where I can find that version of El Diablo's theorem is where you name it yourself (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Number=10485344&page=0&vc=1 ) instead of the original El D theorem (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Number=6959351&page=0&vc=1) /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Chomp

07-16-2007, 08:59 AM

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Checkraising A-high flops is the money - El Diablo Theorem

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The only place where I can find that version of El Diablo's theorem is where you name it yourself (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Number=10485344&page=0&vc=1 ) instead of the original El D theorem (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Number=6959351&page=0&vc=1) /images/graemlins/smile.gif

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Gowned

TheSalche

07-16-2007, 10:06 AM

Bluffing cbetters is pretty profitable ... one reason for me to not give out my stars name on 2p2 =)

dawade

07-16-2007, 03:38 PM

I'm always looking for new wrinkles to add to my game to add value, but I'm not so sure this is one unless we have a read.

XHitman014

07-16-2007, 04:20 PM

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What were your stats / observed hands on Villain? The few times I've tried this at 50NL at a laggy Villain they simply won't fold so I'm only doing this when I do have a hand.

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Warning bells should go off now in your head. Just don't overdo it and resist the urge to do it against fishies...save it for the regulars who c-bet 70-80% of all flops.

jonyy6788

07-16-2007, 04:22 PM

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I'm always looking for new wrinkles to add to my game to add value, but I'm not so sure this is one unless we have a read.

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we don't need much of a read, either he has the ace, set, or he doesn't

dry flops are goot b/c they nvr have a draw and they can't put you on a draw....just as long as you do this with AK sometimes it's not exploitable (not that anybody at NL50 is trying to exploit flop c/r's)

Kasane

07-16-2007, 04:22 PM

It's good to occasionally do this with complete air and monsters -- trick is to do it only against good players who can fold. I don't know about doing it more, because it needs to be balanced by monsters that we're unlikely to get action from in a bet-3bet move like this one (HU, A high flop, two-tone, but flush draw is unlikely to be nut one, no overs, only 2 sets).

hennnerz

07-16-2007, 04:31 PM

I do this alot. Specifically against players with very high flop aggression ratings. Obviously it depends on image and amount of times ive done it to villain...

robinmbuk

07-16-2007, 04:36 PM

I'd like this alot more if you had K/images/graemlins/spade.gifQ/images/graemlins/spade.gif

derosnec

07-16-2007, 04:38 PM

i would rarely c-bet those flops anyway

fees

07-16-2007, 06:32 PM

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i would rarely c-bet those flops anyway

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u should cbet more

Reup Gang

07-16-2007, 06:37 PM

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I'd like this alot more if you had K/images/graemlins/spade.gifQ/images/graemlins/spade.gif

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or, even better, 22!

Lego05

07-16-2007, 09:02 PM

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I'd like this alot more if you had K/images/graemlins/spade.gifQ/images/graemlins/spade.gif

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or, even better, 22!

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I don't like this with 22....it's alright, but I prefer just leading.

Reup Gang

07-16-2007, 09:22 PM

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I'd like this alot more if you had K/images/graemlins/spade.gifQ/images/graemlins/spade.gif

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or, even better, 22!

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I don't like this with 22....it's alright, but I prefer just leading.

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are you restealing here?

4_2_it

07-16-2007, 09:28 PM

This is a good tool to have in the arsenal, but you have to have the right conditions for it to be profitable. Villain has to be a c-betting machine who you know is capable of laying down a weak ace or worse. If you use it and it does work, be prepared for the inevitable play back that he will make in the next 20 hands.

Xanta

07-16-2007, 09:33 PM

Infrequently checkraising 22-77 (non-sets, obv) on Ace high flops allows me to call with that range preflop profitably when I might not have the implied odds to play them strictly for set value.

Gets my thumbs up. Beware that it tilts the [censored] out of people to have their cbets check/raised, so keep careful track of when you do it and have a hand the next time that you do.

Lego05

07-16-2007, 09:40 PM

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I'd like this alot more if you had K/images/graemlins/spade.gifQ/images/graemlins/spade.gif

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or, even better, 22!

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I don't like this with 22....it's alright, but I prefer just leading.

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are you restealing here?

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What do you mean? I'm leading with 22 here because I'm hoping he'll raise me and then I 3bet all-in with my set of 2's.

Kasane

07-16-2007, 09:48 PM

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Infrequently checkraising 22-77 (non-sets, obv) on Ace high flops allows me to call with that range preflop profitably when I might not have the implied odds to play them strictly for set value.

Gets my thumbs up. Beware that it tilts the [censored] out of people to have their cbets check/raised, so keep careful track of when you do it and have a hand the next time that you do.

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Very, very true. Third time's the charm, though, in my opinion.

Reup Gang

07-16-2007, 10:48 PM

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What do you mean? I'm leading with 22 here because I'm hoping he'll raise me and then I 3bet all-in with my set of 2's.

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my "resteal" reference was seeing if you were trying to out level me. apparently not.

a nice sized donkbet from a TAG who doesn't do it very often is see-through for me, and likely most good TAGs. he's cbetting with air often so he'll simply fold to the donkbet many a time. and when he doesnt and has, say, AK, do you really think he's foldign it either way? but b3bAI gives him a better chance to fold it than C/R his cbet -- he's not going to get away from his TPTK so easily then.

Lego05

07-16-2007, 10:50 PM

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What do you mean? I'm leading with 22 here because I'm hoping he'll raise me and then I 3bet all-in with my set of 2's.

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my "resteal" reference was seeing if you were trying to out level me. apparently not.

a nice sized donkbet from a TAG who doesn't do it very often is see-through for me, and likely most good TAGs.

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Most villians aren't good TAG's. Plus I do the same thing with combo draws.

Reup Gang

07-16-2007, 10:59 PM

you realize that your sets / combo draws in such a position as this are going to be so rare that as far as any ABC villain TAG is concerned, it's an exceedingly rare thing to do and they aren't going to be able to say, "well, HE DOES THIS WITH COMBO DRAWS TOO!"

i still stand by donking into him being -EV than CRing him like you would normally do, simply because you're going to be pulling off the CRs more often and thereby widening your range when you do have a set or even your combo draw.

jonyy6788

07-16-2007, 11:02 PM

any decent TAG that we think is a good candidate to c/r Axx is prolly not gonna stack of to a b/3b on a rag flop when you have a set

also, any "decent TAG" that we think is good candidate to c/r Axx, will also fire a c-bet almost 100% against you (provided you are a decent TAG urslef and not a TAGfish). They're gonna know you aren't playing a ton of hands OOP and that you're likely playing fit/fold.

Reup Gang

07-16-2007, 11:05 PM

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They're gonna know you aren't playing a ton of hands OOP and that you're likely playing fit/fold.

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a very valid point as well

Lego05

07-16-2007, 11:05 PM

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you realize that your sets / combo draws in such a position as this are going to be so rare that as far as any ABC villain TAG is concerned, it's an exceedingly rare thing to do and they aren't going to be able to say, "well, HE DOES THIS WITH COMBO DRAWS TOO!"

i still stand by donking into him being -EV than CRing him like you would normally do, simply because you're going to be pulling off the CRs more often and thereby widening your range when you do have a set or even your combo draw.

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Yea I know that. I rarely ever check raise them on the flop either though....I'm starting to increase the frequency but its still pretty rare. The point is even most TAG's aren't good enough to fold AK or maybe even AQ there unless a scare card shows up on the turn or river. Against people I've identified as good TAG's I may vary my play a little and it also depends on board texture.

Reup Gang

07-16-2007, 11:06 PM

a lot of tags will fold AK/AQ for stacks v another tag on the flop itself. i think you're overestimating your implied odds.

Lego05

07-16-2007, 11:10 PM

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a lot of tags will fold AK/AQ for stacks v another tag on the flop itself. i think you're overestimating your implied odds.

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A lot of good TAG's...nowadays a lot of people play TAGish but still have no real clue what they're doing postflop and AK on a K or A flop is still the nuts.

You are right though, but the good oenes prolly wouldn't put too much more in if anything after the check raise either. It's just hard to get hands paid off by a TAG in general....just one of the reasons I try to avoid tables with these players on them.

holdme

07-16-2007, 11:14 PM

i will exploit all of you 2+2 c/r tards
thanks for the heads up

derosnec

07-16-2007, 11:25 PM

none of you will have a chance to c/r me because i'm open pushing pf.

Lego05

07-16-2007, 11:26 PM

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i will exploit all of you 2+2 c/r tards
thanks for the heads up

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Lol...actually that's exactly why I decided to use a different s/n here than I do at the poker site after a few hundred posts when I had the same s/n.

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none of you will have a chance to c/r me because i'm open pushing pf.

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Works every time but one. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

fees

07-17-2007, 12:46 AM

The point is that he will be folding enogh here to make this profitable because its unlikely that he has an ace in his hand, and that he would continue. The benefit is doing this and then folding later because then it widens you up and sets, etc get paid off. If u only play 1 ay and only raise here with a set or something, you aren't utilizing max ev