Official Neteller Update Thread Part 2

[4_2_it]

Let's keep all discussion of Neteller here. If you have questions about stuff prior to July 13, 2007, please check out Part 1 (link below). Your question is most likely addressed there.

Link to Neteller Part 1 (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=law&Number=7868345&page=0 &fpart=10)

[Nathan_2]

Update
1. No money or plan to pay on July 13th.
2. Neteller CEO quits to "concentrate on personal matters."
3. Neteller faces delisting on the AIM stock exchange the week of July 16th.

[BluffTHIS!]

4. You're still bending over while neteller and the Fed stick it in you.

[EscapePlan9]

We're not getting paid on the 13th? What about the 14th? Do any of you have a time machine if they are letting us withdraw on the 14th?

[JBB]

The June update from Neteller, while it included the July 13th date, it also had some language that fund distribution would not commence until the USAO investigation was completed, which they anticipated would be by 7/13 IIRC, but the fact that it is after 7/13 and we cannot request a withdrawl is not contrary to what was said in previous updates.

[Bob Moss]

Here's an update: no one is getting their money back, ever. It was stolen, it's gone.

[Backspin20]

[ QUOTE ]
Here's an update: no one is getting their money back, ever. It was stolen, it's gone.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont like your tone boy!

[Vince.]

Isn't there some deadline for the Neteller stock to be relisted/delisted? I thought it was the 16th...

[beachbum]

[ QUOTE ]
Isn't there some deadline for the Neteller stock to be relisted/delisted? I thought it was the 16th...

[/ QUOTE ]

http://casino.pokernews.com/news/2007/7/neteller-aim.htm

[PokeReader]

I am generally concerned that Neteller must be operating on a huge net loss right now. If they were decent people they would have shut down the day the DOJ raided, and been able to send the money back. However, they have loans and creditors that have been greatly further extended, and it is our money that is collateral for those loans. If Neteller defaults at any point before that money is returned, you will not be the first in line, the bond holders and creditors will be first. I am not entirely hopeful about players getting that money back, I'm afraid.

[yahboohoo]

The assumption that NETeller has "loans" is ridiculous. It's as silly as suggesting that Bank of America needs to get a loan to build a new office tower in New York. Have you EVER heard of a bank getting a loan?

Reviewing the available financial statements for NETeller, it is pretty easy to figure out that NETeller hasn't had to get a loan (for anything) in quite a few years. Their only creditors are the normal vendors needed to run their day-to-day business (phones, Internet provider, utilities, etc.).

Simply put: They owe money for taxes and have accounts payable, just like any other business. The only difference is, they don't need to leverage their company because they are in the cash business.

PokeReader, please limit your comments to things you know about. Posting opinions and assumptions does little to futher our collective knowledge and understanding of this situation, especially when the facts are there for anyone to find. "Our money as collateral for loans." Phhhbbbt...

[bossplayer]

[ QUOTE ]
I am generally concerned that Neteller must be operating on a huge net loss right now. If they were decent people they would have shut down the day the DOJ raided, and been able to send the money back. However, they have loans and creditors that have been greatly further extended, and it is our money that is collateral for those loans. If Neteller defaults at any point before that money is returned, you will not be the first in line, the bond holders and creditors will be first. I am not entirely hopeful about players getting that money back, I'm afraid.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you bother posting this, are you mad that Neteller still has a thread?

[Jeff76]

[ QUOTE ]
please limit your comments to things you know about.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Have you EVER heard of a bank getting a loan?

[/ QUOTE ]Yes. In fact, I work for a bank that specializes in giving loans and other services to other banks.

[BigAlK]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
please limit your comments to things you know about.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Have you EVER heard of a bank getting a loan?

[/ QUOTE ]Yes. In fact, I work for a bank that specializes in giving loans and other services to other banks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right. Banks borrow from other banks and the Federal Reserve all the time, especially short term. But Netteller isn't a bank.

[Jeff76]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
please limit your comments to things you know about.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Have you EVER heard of a bank getting a loan?

[/ QUOTE ]Yes. In fact, I work for a bank that specializes in giving loans and other services to other banks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right. Banks borrow from other banks and the Federal Reserve all the time, especially short term. But Netteller isn't a bank.

[/ QUOTE ]For sure- I didn't mean to imply Neteller has loans, etc. Just pointing out a spot of irony in the post. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[yahboohoo]

Okay jokers, very funny.

Yes, banks do lend each other money, but not in the manner that PokeReader was implying. And yes, NETeller isn't a bank, but that is precisely why it doesn't need to borrow, because it's in the cash flow business. NETeller doesn't make loans itself, nor does it pay interest -- it just collects interest, and it enjoys a tremendous float (e.g., $55 million for seven months...). So, in that capacity, NETeller doesn't need to buy and sell money in the manner that Jeff is referring to.

And back to PokeReader's comment: NETeller did do the appropriate downsizing. They closed their Canadian facility and halved their staff.

[DMoogle]

I just thought of something... what happened to Ryan (you know, "LOL Donkaments meow" Ryan)?

[03 Z4]

My understanding is DOJ froze Neteller "account" so essentially all the money that was there (meaning ours) back in Jan (?) should still be there now. Correct?

[4_2_it]

[ QUOTE ]
My understanding is DOJ froze Neteller "account" so essentially all the money that was there (meaning ours) back in Jan (?) should still be there now. Correct?

[/ QUOTE ]

From what we have been told, our money is still there in segregated accounts.

[Casper05]

4_2_it, so is there a plan in place to get us our money back? I know the "deadline" is passed but haven't seen anything about it.

[BigAlK]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My understanding is DOJ froze Neteller "account" so essentially all the money that was there (meaning ours) back in Jan (?) should still be there now. Correct?

[/ QUOTE ]

From what we have been told, our money is still there in segregated accounts.

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct. The money that was frozen as I understand it was electronic transfers for withdrawls being made by US customers. The money was nabbed in transit after it had entered the US banking system. At that point Netteller suspended transfer of money to and from the US. That "frozen" money would be a very small percentage of total balances at Netteller.

[oldbookguy]

[ QUOTE ]
Correct. The money that was frozen as I understand it was electronic transfers for withdrawls being made by US customers. The money was nabbed in transit after it had entered the US banking system. At that point Netteller suspended transfer of money to and from the US. That "frozen" money would be a very small percentage of total balances at Netteller.

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct and from what I can gather the ACH they were transfered to was JPL Systems/, a company owned by the NT execs. That has since been returned to NT (my funds were frozen in transit) and now are back in my account though like everyone else no way to move them.

obg

[Vince.]

Does anyone have an idea why Neteller is not returning are money at the moment? What are some logical reasons why they couldn't let us withdraw on the 13th and are making us wait longer?

[stoxtrader]

can press release be posted? if not, plz delete.


Press Release
NETELLER Announces Settlement of US Situation

Wednesday, 18 July 2007 - NETELLER Plc (LSE: NLR), the independent global online payments business, today announces that the Company has entered into a Deferred Prosecution Agreement (“DPA”) with the United States Attorney's Office for the Southern District of New York (“USAO”). The DPA represents the resolution of the USAO’s investigation into the Company.

Pursuant to the DPA, the Company has consented to the filing of a criminal information relating to transactions between Internet gambling merchants and persons located in the United States. The USAO has agreed to defer the prosecution of any federal charges and, as a consequence, the Company will not be convicted of any federal crime, as long the Company fulfils the set conditions of the DPA during the two year term of the agreement. At the conclusion of the two year term, the criminal information will be dismissed. The key terms of the DPA are set out in more detail later in this announcement. The United States District Court for the Southern District of New York has approved the deferral of the prosecution. As part of the DPA, the Company has also agreed to forfeit US$ 136 million to the United States. This amount includes the approximately US$ 60 million that the USAO has previously seized.

Additionally the Company announces:

* Following this resolution, the Company will seek to publish its audited annual accounts for 2006 and have its shares restored to trading on AIM as soon as practicable thereafter.

* The Company is using its best efforts to allow withdrawal requests as soon as possible and US customers will be able to sign in to their NETELLER account to request the withdrawal of their funds by no later than 30 July 2007. The exact date upon which US customers will be able to make requests will be communicated to US customers via email and through our website.

Ron Martin, President & CEO, said “This agreement resolves the USAO’s investigation relating to the Company’s former US business activities. We believe that this settlement is in the best interests of NETELLER and its shareholders."

“Our customers, employees and shareholders have all patiently waited for this resolution. We anticipate within the next few weeks that we will have fully implemented the plan for the return of funds to our US customers and are hopeful that, by that time, we will have restored the Company’s shares to trading on AIM. We can now begin to refocus our efforts on building and strengthening the NETELLER business in the growing markets of the European and Asia Pacific regions. I look forward to sharing further information about the Company’s progress over the coming months.”
Key terms of the Deferred Prosecution Agreement

The settlement takes the form of a two year DPA with the USAO. In the DPA, NETELLER has consented to the filing with the United States District Court for the Southern District of New York of a criminal information charging NETELLER with participating in a conspiracy in violation of certain US laws. If NETELLER fulfils its obligations under the DPA, the criminal information will be dismissed, following the two year term.

Specifically, the DPA contains the following main points:

* NETELLER, as detailed in the “Statement of Admitted Facts” attached to the DPA, admits that it had operated in the US an unlicensed money transmitting business and had participated in the performance of financial transactions for the purpose of promoting unlawful transactions between internet gambling merchants and persons located in the US.

* NETELLER agrees that it will pay an amount to the United States totalling US$ 136 million which is disgorgement of certain profits received by NETELLER from the activities described in the Statement of Admitted Facts. This amount includes the approximately US$ 60 million that the USAO has previously seized. NETELLER agrees that it will satisfy the remaining portion of its forfeiture obligation with a payment of US$ 40 million to be paid on or before 15 October 2007, and the remaining balance (approximately US$ 36 million) to be paid on or before 17 January 2008.

* NETELLER agrees to cooperate fully with US authorities in all matters relating to the ongoing investigations by the USAO.

* NETELLER agrees to fully implement procedures and controls to prevent illegal transactions between internet gambling merchants and persons located in the US and to continue to retain Navigant Consulting Inc., a forensic accounting firm, to monitor NETELLER’s compliance with these procedures and controls.

Distribution Plan to be implemented

As announced on 4 June, the Company has agreed to a plan for the distribution of funds to its US customers. The agreed plan details the process and mechanisms by which US customers will be able to initiate the return of their funds after the plan is implemented. NETELLER is using its best efforts to start implementing the plan as soon as possible and, in any event, by no later than 30 July 2007. The Company will communicate to US customers via email and through its website the exact date upon which such customers will be able to make requests.
Restoration of trading to AIM

As stated in the Company’s announcement of 13 July, the Company continues to make progress regarding the ongoing suspension of the Company's shares from trading on AIM. The Company is in discussions with its advisers and AIM and understands that the admission of the Company’s ordinary shares to trading on AIM has not to date been cancelled.

With today’s announcement of a resolution of the USAO investigation, the Company is now focused on finalising and publishing its audited annual accounts for 2006. The Company will endeavour to post the 2006 accounts to its shareholders as soon as practicable following which the Company anticipates that trading in the Company’s ordinary shares on AIM will be restored.

Further details will be announced as and when they become available.

[Numskull21]

Beat me to it. This is great news though!

[thirstyforwater]

"The Company is using its best efforts to allow withdrawal requests as soon as possible and US customers will be able to sign in to their NETELLER account to request the withdrawal of their funds by [b] no later than 30 July [b]2007. The exact date upon which US customers will be able to make requests will be communicated to US customers via email and through our website."

[Mike Cuneo]

YES YES YES YES YES (jerry yang voice)

[farmslicer7]

One can only hope...

[yahboohoo]

I read this part and just about shit my pants... "As part of the DPA, the Company has also agreed to forfeit US$ 136 million to the United States. This amount includes the approximately US$ 60 million that the USAO has previously seized."

[oldbookguy]

VERY good news, though I would 'bet' the date will be July 30, not soooner.

obg

[Professionalpoker]

IRS audits to start.....???

[Vince.]

crucial!

[ifti99]

So, Neteller says they will detail their "plan" no later than July 30. It doesn't say we will get our money on the date; in fact, they seem to imply just the opposite. I'm not holding my breathe.

One thing I have found consistently funny in this is how people feel that because Neteller is publicly traded, they are somehow "reputable". Anyone here familiar with Enron, Worldcom, etc. You gotta be kidding. Plus, the DOJ just confiscated $160MM, and they have already been suspended from the London AIM. I can't believe that anyone outside the US would still do business with these guys.

I hope the funds eventually get returned, but I'm really not very optomistic.

[Vince.]

[ QUOTE ]
So, Neteller says they will detail their "plan" no later than July 30. It doesn't say we will get our money on the date; in fact, they seem to imply just the opposite. I'm not holding my breathe.

One thing I have found consistently funny in this is how people feel that because Neteller is publicly traded, they are somehow "reputable". Anyone here familiar with Enron, Worldcom, etc. You gotta be kidding. Plus, the DOJ just confiscated $160MM, and they have already been suspended from the London AIM. I can't believe that anyone outside the US would still do business with these guys.

I hope the funds eventually get returned, but I'm really not very optomistic.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, it says that they will "implement" their plan by the 30th. Still, I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

[nineinchal]

[ QUOTE ]
I read this part and just about shit my pants... "As part of the DPA, the Company has also agreed to forfeit US$ 136 million to the United States. This amount includes the approximately US$ 60 million that the USAO has previously seized."

[/ QUOTE ]

This is our money, so obviously we are not getting it. I am sure neteller will say "your funds have been forfeited to the USAO, good luck getting it back from those bastards."

I figure that our moneys were part of the $60 million seized.

[Numskull21]

[ QUOTE ]
So, Neteller says they will detail their "plan" no later than July 30. It doesn't say we will get our money on the date; in fact, they seem to imply just the opposite. I'm not holding my breathe.

One thing I have found consistently funny in this is how people feel that because Neteller is publicly traded, they are somehow "reputable". Anyone here familiar with Enron, Worldcom, etc. You gotta be kidding. Plus, the DOJ just confiscated $160MM, and they have already been suspended from the London AIM. I can't believe that anyone outside the US would still do business with these guys.

I hope the funds eventually get returned, but I'm really not very optomistic.

[/ QUOTE ]

US customers will be able to sign in to their NETELLER account to request the withdrawal of their funds by no later than 30 July 2007.

[Tryptamean]

I find this to be encouraging

[bossplayer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I read this part and just about shit my pants... "As part of the DPA, the Company has also agreed to forfeit US$ 136 million to the United States. This amount includes the approximately US$ 60 million that the USAO has previously seized."

[/ QUOTE ]

This is our money, so obviously we are not getting it. I am sure neteller will say "your funds have been forfeited to the USAO, good luck getting it back from those bastards."

I figure that our moneys were part of the $60 million seized.

[/ QUOTE ]

Go post at skyisfalling.com please!

[oldbookguy]

The most interesting aspect of this has been the heavy hand of the USAO / Doj.

Notice when NT pull out of Canada, no funds were frozen, no charges filed. They just made the announcement and the customers withdrew funds and that was that.

Same in Isreal as of today. Turkey some time back.

OUR DoJ / USAO could have done the same, told them to exit this market or else, but NOOOOO, they have to file charges, block funds......Get money. Money they COULD have gotten all along were it properly regulated.

obg

[Richas]

[ QUOTE ]
One thing I have found consistently funny in this is how people feel that because Neteller is publicly traded, they are somehow "reputable". Anyone here familiar with Enron, Worldcom, etc. You gotta be kidding. Plus, the DOJ just confiscated $160MM, and they have already been suspended from the London AIM. I can't believe that anyone outside the US would still do business with these guys.


[/ QUOTE ]

Mainly because my government does not behave like the DOJ.

Neteller saves me about 3% in exchange rate costs whenever I want to move money between sites. I don't need a huge balance there but I do want somewhere to hold dollars for a while.

Neteller are paying out to US customers despite the DOJ stealing $136m of their money. Essentially this money comes from the shareholders.

What I find amusing is that people are still bitching about Neteller rather than their government. Who else do you know that if your money was stolen after it had left them to go toyou, whilst someone else had it, would then pay the thieves more just to be able to pay you back?

I know its been painful but when you get your money I hope you remember to say thanks.

[bossplayer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
One thing I have found consistently funny in this is how people feel that because Neteller is publicly traded, they are somehow "reputable". Anyone here familiar with Enron, Worldcom, etc. You gotta be kidding. Plus, the DOJ just confiscated $160MM, and they have already been suspended from the London AIM. I can't believe that anyone outside the US would still do business with these guys.


[/ QUOTE ]

Mainly because my government does not behave like the DOJ.

Neteller saves me about 3% in exchange rate costs whenever I want to move money between sites. I don't need a huge balance there but I do want somewhere to hold dollars for a while.

Neteller are paying out to US customers despite the DOJ stealing $136m of their money. Essentially this money comes from the shareholders.

What I find amusing is that people are still bitching about Neteller rather than their government. Who else do you know that if your money was stolen after it had left them to go toyou, whilst someone else had it, would then pay the thieves more just to be able to pay you back?

I know its been painful but when you get your money I hope you remember to say thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

The US government is totally at fault here (almost made a mistake and said 'our government')

Something major will have to happen to change it, and this ain't it. America has been VERY messed up for a long time. Over taxation has the potential to cause some stirring because everyone can relate to it, but sheeples take a lot of punishment...

[sightless]

SON OF A GOD DAMN BITCH!
GOD BLESS AMERICA!!!

[ilikeaces86_]

I am so happy since I basically forgot about the 25k I had stuck in there.

[jkpoker]

about time

[Merkle]

It does surprise me how many people seem to "forget" that it was our govt that took the money Neteller was sending us so many months ago. How did they expect Neteller to get the money to us until DOJ agreed not to confiscate it as it entered the country?

Neteller has done what was necessary to get DOJ off their back so they could return our money and yes I am thankful.

I almost wish they had kept my money and told DOJ to fly a kite.

[oldbookguy]

From the press release from the USAO in NY:
94 MILLION is the amout of funds frozen by the NT proecution, "In addition,
NETeller will return to customers in the United States
approximately $94 million which NETeller currently has on deposit in a foreign bank account."

The entire release:
Thanks to ryanbadie at the Yahoo Groups NTCS for posting this.

United States Attorney
Southern District of New York
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE CONTACT: U.S. ATTORNEY'S OFFICE
July 18, 2007 YUSILL SCRIBNER,
REBEKAH CARMICHAEL
PUBLIC INFORMATION OFFICE
(212) 637-2600
ISLE OF MAN-BASED INTERNET PAYMENT COMPANY NETELLER PLC
ADMITS CRIMINAL WRONGDOING AND AGREES TO FORFEIT
$136 MILLION FOR CONSPIRING TO PROMOTE
INTERNET GAMBLING BUSINESSES
MICHAEL J. GARCIA, the United States Attorney for the
Southern District of New York, announced today that NETeller PLC
("NETeller") -- an Internet payment business based in the Isle of
Man and publicly traded on the Alternative Investment Market
("AIM") of the London Stock Exchange -- has admitted to criminal
wrongdoing and has agreed to forfeit $136,000,000 in criminal
proceeds as part of an agreement to defer prosecution of NETeller
for its participation in a conspiracy to promote Internet
gambling businesses and to operate an unlicensed money
transmitting business. A felony Information specifying the
charges against NETeller; a Statement of Admitted Facts by
NETeller; and the Deferred Prosecution Agreement, which was
accepted by United States District Judge P. KEVIN CASTEL, were
filed today in federal court in Manhattan.
The Charges
The felony Information filed today charges that
NETeller participated in a conspiracy, in violation of Title 18,
United States Code, Section 371, to: (i) use the wires to
transmit in interstate and foreign commerce bets and wagers on
behalf of persons engaged in the business of betting and
wagering, in violation of Title 18, United States Code, Section
1084; (ii) conduct illegal gambling businesses, in violation of
Title 18, United States Code, Section 1955; (iii) conduct
international monetary transactions for purposes of promoting
illegal gambling, in violation of Title 18, United States Code,
Section 1956(a)(2)(A); and (iv) conduct an unlicensed money
transmitting business, in violation of Title 18, United States
Code, Section 1960. The Information also contains a criminal
Forfeiture Allegation against all property involved in or derived
-2-
from the criminal wrongdoing, in the amount of at least $1
billion dollars.
The Criminal Wrongdoing
As set forth in the Information and the Statement of
Admitted facts:
In 1999, STEPHEN ERIC LAWRENCE and JOHN DAVID LEFEBVRE
began developing the Internet payment system that was used by
NETeller and its predecessors to provide online payment services
to Internet gambling companies. In April 2004, NETeller became a
public company and listed its shares for trading on the AIM of
the London Stock Exchange. At the time, NETeller openly stated
in its prospectus, issued in connection with its initial public
offering ("IPO"), that its conduct violated the law in the United
States.
At its peak in September 2005, NETeller had a market
capitalization of approximately $2 billion. Over the years,
NETeller and its predecessors processed more than $10 billion in
payment transactions for customers in the United States related
to the Internet gambling industry, and consistently derived
approximately 75% or more of its annual profits from such
transactions.
NETeller's illegal conduct in the United States did not
end until January 2007, when LAWRENCE and LEFEBVRE were arrested
on warrants issued by the United States District Court for the
Southern District of New York. Earlier this month, both LAWRENCE
and LEFEBVRE pleaded guilty to charges that they conspired with
others to operate an unlicensed money transmitting business and
to promote illegal gambling by providing payment services to
enable offshore Internet gambling businesses to access customers
in the United States. LAWRENCE and LEFEBVRE each face a maximum
term of imprisonment of five years and a maximum fine of $250,000
or twice the gross pecuniary gain from the offense. In addition,
LAWRENCE and LEFEBVRE each admitted to forfeiture allegations
requiring them to personally forfeit an additional $100 million
dollars to the United States, which they are expected to pay in
full prior to sentencing. LAWRENCE and LEFEBVRE are currently
scheduled to be sentenced by Judge CASTEL on October 29, 2007.
In its Statement of Admitted Facts issued in connection
with the Deferred Prosecution Agreement, NETeller admitted that
NETeller and its predecessors, through the conduct of certain
officers and directors: (i) knowingly operated an unlicensed
money transmitting business in the United States; (ii) knowingly
-3-
agreed to promote illegal Internet gambling by using the wires
and other means to transmit in interstate and foreign commerce
bets and wagers from customers in the United States to numerous
Internet gambling businesses located outside of the United
States, and payments to customers in the United States from
numerous Internet gambling businesses located outside of the
United States; and (iii) intentionally took steps to avoid
detection and jurisdiction in the United States by operating in
the United States through agents and companies that were not
owned, but were controlled, by NETeller and its predecessors.
The Deferred Prosecution Agreement
As part of the Deferred Prosecution Agreement, NETeller
has agreed to forfeit $136 million in profits from its wrongdoing
to the United States in a civil forfeiture action. In addition,
NETeller will return to customers in the United States
approximately $94 million which NETeller currently has on deposit
in a foreign bank account. NETeller has also agreed to cooperate
fully with the Government. Under the Agreement prosecution of the
criminal charges against NETeller will be deferred for a period
of two years, until July 2009, if specified conditions are met.
At the end of that period, if NETeller has fully complied with
all the terms of the Agreement, the Government will move to
dismiss the Information.
In addition to the foregoing, the Agreement also
imposes permanent restrictions and controls on the operations of
NETeller, including, among other things, that: (i) NETeller will
not participate in illegal gambling transactions involving
persons located in the United States; (ii) NETeller will maintain
procedures and controls designed to prevent its services from
being used to conduct U.S. gambling transactions; and (iii)
NETeller will monitor regularly the effectiveness of its
procedures and controls designed to prevent its services from
being used to conduct U.S. gambling transactions, and will revise
and update its procedures and controls as necessary to achieve
that purpose. In order to ensure NETeller's compliance, the
Agreement also requires NETeller to retain a monitor for a period
of at least eighteen months. The restrictions and controls on
the company's operations in the United States will remain in
effect and the company's cooperation will continue after charges
against the company are dismissed.
Mr. GARCIA said that the decision to file a charge
against NETeller was based on several factors set forth in the
Department of Justice Principles of Federal Prosecutions of
-4-
Business Organizations (the "Principles"), including: (i) the
seriousness and duration of NETeller's conduct involving the
processing of billions of dollars of gambling transactions in
violation of state and federal law, and (ii) the involvement of
senior corporate officers in the company's criminal conduct.
The decision then to enter into the Deferred
Prosecution Agreement with NETeller, Mr. GARCIA continued, was
based on a variety of factors and considerations also set out in
the Principles, including: (i) the company's frank acknowledgment
of its misconduct and its willingness to cooperate with the
investigation; and (ii) the company's remedial actions, including
cessation of its participation in illegal gambling transactions
involving persons located in the United States; implementation of
procedures and controls to prevent its services from being used
to conduct U.S. gambling transactions; retention of a monitor to
ensure compliance with those procedures and controls; and
disgorgement of $136,000,000 in criminal proceeds.
Mr. GARCIA stated, "NETeller moved billions of dollars
offshore, serving as a financial conduit that enabled Internet
gambling businesses to prosper by violating United States laws.
Supporting illegal gambling is not a business risk, it is a
crime, and today's proceedings mark yet another example of the
consequences of engaging in that conduct."
Mr. GARCIA praised the tremendous investigative work of
the Federal Bureau of Investigation in this case.
Assistant United States Attorneys TIMOTHY J. TREANOR,
CHRISTOPHER P. CONNIFF, and SHARON COHEN LEVIN are in charge of
the prosecution.
07-186 ###

obg

[gsolis]

[ QUOTE ]
I almost wish they had kept my money and told DOJ to fly a kite.

[/ QUOTE ]

not sure how that would have taught the DOJ a lesson.

[oldbookguy]

here is the worst part.

94,000,000. @ 5% money market NT will make about $2,400,000.00 on our money over the last 6 months.

Note: you can get that small 5% even at paypal / eBay.

obg

[ilikeaces86_]

[ QUOTE ]
here is the worst part.

94,000,000. @ 5% money market NT will make about $2,400,000.00 on our money over the last 6 months.

Note: you can get that small 5% even at paypal / eBay.

obg

[/ QUOTE ]

Sons of a bitches!

[Legislurker]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I almost wish they had kept my money and told DOJ to fly a kite.

[/ QUOTE ]

not sure how that would have taught the DOJ a lesson.

[/ QUOTE ]

A knock down drag out trial with Neteller, and the two founders all going at once, with the strain the DOJ is under, would have caused considerable inconvenience. But, thats 2-4 years of uncertainty. Backing down served everyone's interests, except ours.

[oldbookguy]

It gets even worse!

Please, a real math whiz figure this out accuratly.

OK, the DoJ alleges NT did 5.1 Billion in transferes in the 1 HALF of 2006, most from the U S.

Lets say, 60% from the U S (I think the estimate was 85% though).

10.2 billion x 60% = 6.06 Billion.

figure 5% profit = 300,500.00 x 25% TAX = 75,125.00 Taxes per year.

Our real smart Senators (Kyl, Frist, et al) now have 136,000,000.00 instead of 75 Million per year for ever, and that is just from Neteller.

If NT made 10% profit, well, the Government smarties got less than ONE year taxes.

obg

[DMoogle]

So... o/u on when the withdraws will be processed and we get our monies? I'd take the over on 3 months.

[oldbookguy]

According to the deal, you / me / we get ONE withdrawal request only, all or nothing.

See the neteller website.

obg

[Ron-Mexico]

"Pursuant to the DPA, the Company has consented to the filing of a criminal information relating to transactions between Internet gambling merchants and persons located in the United States."

Uh.... Can someone explain that in plain english?

[thirstyforwater]

[ QUOTE ]
So... o/u on when the withdraws will be processed and we get our monies? I'd take the over on 3 months.

[/ QUOTE ]

i'd like to take that bet /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[oldbookguy]

Kinda like probation only in this case in 2 years or so if NT does as agreed, the charges are dropped (except the fines) and no other people get arrested or prosecuted.

obg

[yahboohoo]

NETeller's profit margin was a lot more than 5%.

[oldbookguy]

So, at the 10% level, there is a -e/v fine /taxes. so sad.....

obg

[FatalError]

[ QUOTE ]
here is the worst part.

94,000,000. @ 5% money market NT will make about $2,400,000.00 on our money over the last 6 months.

Note: you can get that small 5% even at paypal / eBay.

obg

[/ QUOTE ]

did you read the part where neteller lost ~120 million?

this was lose lose for everyone involved except the us government, that 120 mil is def going to the war on terror and not education funding

[yahboohoo]

Let me get this straight:

1) The DOJ seized $55-60 million in US citizens' funds.
2) The amount seized does not represent all money owed to US citizens by NETeller.
3) The amount NETeller owes to US citizens is $94 million.
4) The $55-60 million seized by the DOJ were funds that US citizens were trying to withdraw in the wake of the arrests of NETeller's founders in January.
5) The remaining $40 million or so was money NETeller's other US customers had left in their accounts.

Here are the two points I'd really like clarified:
6) The DOJ is keeping the $55-60 million they confiscated.
7) NETeller is going to pay those US customers whose money was part of the $55-60 million the DOJ is keeping.
8) NETeller is paying this money out of its own accounts instead of telling US customers "tough luck, take it up with your own government"

Am I interpreting this situation correctly?

EDIT: Essentially NETeller is going to reissue those withdrawal requests that the DOJ confiscated -- out of its own coffers? If so, I think just about everyone in this forum owes NETeller an apology and a big thank you.

[BigAlK]

[ QUOTE ]
Let me get this straight:

1) The DOJ seized $55-60 million in US citizens' funds.

3) The amount NETeller owes to US citizens is $94 million.



[/ QUOTE ]

I think you've got everything straight except I dont' see anyway that these 2 items can be correct regardless of what has been reported. One of the numbers has to be wrong. The only way this can be correct is if US customers requested withdrawls amounting to almost 2/3 of their total account balances in a very short time (somewhere between 1 day and 1 week from when the DOJ stopped the money flow and Neteller realized it and suspended electronic withdrawls to the US). That can't be right.

[Merkle]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I almost wish they had kept my money and told DOJ to fly a kite.

[/ QUOTE ]

not sure how that would have taught the DOJ a lesson.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was referring to their co-operation with the US Govt by providing them copies of all transactions involving US citizens. I would prefer the privacy to the money.

[kidpokeher]

[ QUOTE ]
"Pursuant to the DPA, the Company has consented to the filing of a criminal information relating to transactions between Internet gambling merchants and persons located in the United States."


Uh.... Can someone explain that in plain english?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds to me like the DOJ is making a list.

[yahboohoo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Let me get this straight:

1) The DOJ seized $55-60 million in US citizens' funds.

3) The amount NETeller owes to US citizens is $94 million.



[/ QUOTE ]

I think you've got everything straight except I dont' see anyway that these 2 items can be correct regardless of what has been reported. One of the numbers has to be wrong. The only way this can be correct is if US customers requested withdrawls amounting to almost 2/3 of their total account balances in a very short time (somewhere between 1 day and 1 week from when the DOJ stopped the money flow and Neteller realized it and suspended electronic withdrawls to the US). That can't be right.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't request a withdrawal (I was too late) and I have $23,500 in there. There are many others like me who never requested a withdrawal.

[amaranto]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"Pursuant to the DPA, the Company has consented to the filing of a criminal information relating to transactions between Internet gambling merchants and persons located in the United States."


Uh.... Can someone explain that in plain english?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds to me like the DOJ is making a list.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the filing of a criminal information is just them formally agreeing that they did specific illegal things. It isn't a transfer of information related to their activities. I could be wrong though.

[yahboohoo]

[ QUOTE ]
"Pursuant to the DPA, the Company has consented to the filing of a criminal information relating to transactions between Internet gambling merchants and persons located in the United States."

[/ QUOTE ]

Interpretation for conspiracy theorists: Grab your ankles because Uncle Sam and his Big Brother are coming to get you. They will rape you for not filing FBAR forms, tax evasion, money laundering, violation of the Wire Transfer Act, conspiracy and -- in all likelihood -- aiding and abetting a terrorist organization. You will be locked up in Gitmo within the year.

Interpretation for the reasonably sane: NETeller has agreed to help the DOJ with any other investigations it may have going now or within the next 24 months inasmuch as they concern other online gaming operations that have conducted business in the United States -- specifically sports betting.



But hey, if it's more fun to scare the crap out of yourself and others, and the conspiracy thing cranks your rod, go for it. Personally, I'd be pretty surprised if Bush's beyatch Gonzales got orders to go on a witch hunt in the middle of a supertight election cycle.

[coxquinn]

yahboohoo also deserves a big thanks as he has been a great source of both information and analysis throughout this neteller debacle

[FatalError]

you're overcomplicating the statement

the USAO levied a ~130 mil fine on neteller as part of the deal to settle the case

the USAO is going to make things easy on neteller by just taking the 60 mil they already have and only making neteller send them 70 more

[WarmonkEd]

[ QUOTE ]
Let me get this straight:

1) The DOJ seized $55-60 million in US citizens' funds.
2) The amount seized does not represent all money owed to US citizens by NETeller.
3) The amount NETeller owes to US citizens is $94 million.
4) The $55-60 million seized by the DOJ were funds that US citizens were trying to withdraw in the wake of the arrests of NETeller's founders in January.
5) The remaining $40 million or so was money NETeller's other US customers had left in their accounts.

Here are the two points I'd really like clarified:
6) The DOJ is keeping the $55-60 million they confiscated.
7) NETeller is going to pay those US customers whose money was part of the $55-60 million the DOJ is keeping.
8) NETeller is paying this money out of its own accounts instead of telling US customers "tough luck, take it up with your own government"

Am I interpreting this situation correctly?

EDIT: Essentially NETeller is going to reissue those withdrawal requests that the DOJ confiscated -- out of its own coffers? If so, I think just about everyone in this forum owes NETeller an apology and a big thank you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. How many people here, if they were running neteller, would do the same?

[Legislurker]

I don't understand what rights European stockholders have, but can they sue the managers and board over this?

[bobman0330]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


EDIT: Essentially NETeller is going to reissue those withdrawal requests that the DOJ confiscated -- out of its own coffers? If so, I think just about everyone in this forum owes NETeller an apology and a big thank you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. How many people here, if they were running neteller, would do the same?

[/ QUOTE ]

Everyone? Don't get me wrong, I'm glad they're talking about finally making good, but how much credit do they really deserve for paying their debts 6 months late, in breach of their agreement (I assume, haven't actually researched this), and without interest?

[JPFisher55]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand what rights European stockholders have, but can they sue the managers and board over this?

[/ QUOTE ]

If Neteller was located in the US and the UK was prosecuting it for similar activities, then I believe that the directors and officers of the company would have purused alternative solutions; partly out of fear of shareholder derivative lawsuits.
But in the Isle of Man who knows if shareholder derivative lawsuits have any basis.
Clearly the actions of Neteller and their cooperation with the DOJ were to benefit the arrested founders. I doubt the arrested founders would have received their plea agreement if Neteller had not cooperated with the DOJ and agreed to this fine. This deal clearly harms the public shareholders. Will Neteller ever be listed on the LSE?

[yahboohoo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
EDIT: Essentially NETeller is going to reissue those withdrawal requests that the DOJ confiscated -- out of its own coffers? If so, I think just about everyone in this forum owes NETeller an apology and a big thank you.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree. How many people here, if they were running neteller, would do the same?

[/ QUOTE ]
Everyone? Don't get me wrong, I'm glad they're talking about finally making good, but how much credit do they really deserve for paying their debts 6 months late, in breach of their agreement (I assume, haven't actually researched this), and without interest?

[/ QUOTE ]
NETeller could have easily said, "We paid that debt once. You asked for your money and we sent it -- plain and simple. The fact that you didn't receive it is your problem. And now you're asking us to pay you a SECOND time??? If your money was confiscated by the DOJ, we're sorry but that money is gone. If your money was still on account and not part of the funds confiscated, we'll hang onto it indefinitely."

Call me a cynic, but I think there's more than one among us that would say "F**K you buddy. The gov't screwed me. The gov't screwed you. Boohoo. Besides, what are you going to do about it pal?"

This is about integrity as much as it is about business and legal matters.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
NETeller could have easily said, "We paid that debt once. You asked for your money and we sent it -- plain and simple. The fact that you didn't receive it is your problem. And now you're asking us to pay you a SECOND time??? If your money was confiscated by the DOJ, we're sorry but that money is gone. If your money was still on account and not part of the funds confiscated, we'll hang onto it indefinitely."

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course, they couldn't have, because, again of course, the return of funds to US customers is very likely (I'd say 95%) part of the agreement from the DOJ side of the field.

The DOJ is against us, but they're not evil (and they're also usually acting in concert with the IRS, which doesn't get paid if the money isn't there.)

[bossplayer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
NETeller could have easily said, "We paid that debt once. You asked for your money and we sent it -- plain and simple. The fact that you didn't receive it is your problem. And now you're asking us to pay you a SECOND time??? If your money was confiscated by the DOJ, we're sorry but that money is gone. If your money was still on account and not part of the funds confiscated, we'll hang onto it indefinitely."

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course, they couldn't have, because, again of course, the return of funds to US customers is very likely (I'd say 95%) part of the agreement from the DOJ side of the field.

The DOJ is against us, but they're not evil (and they're also usually acting in concert with the IRS, which doesn't get paid if the money isn't there.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I think this is where being listed on the Exchange probably helped the consumer. It isn't really a viable choice for the company to keep the consumer's money without recourse, and expect more consumers and investors to look to invest money in them in the future.

[PoorLawyer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


EDIT: Essentially NETeller is going to reissue those withdrawal requests that the DOJ confiscated -- out of its own coffers? If so, I think just about everyone in this forum owes NETeller an apology and a big thank you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. How many people here, if they were running neteller, would do the same?

[/ QUOTE ]

Everyone? Don't get me wrong, I'm glad they're talking about finally making good, but how much credit do they really deserve for paying their debts 6 months late, in breach of their agreement (I assume, haven't actually researched this), and without interest?

[/ QUOTE ]

everyone, but I doubt for the reasons you stated. The money owed to customers is separate from their operating account/profits, which is where the fine is coming from. If they don't agree to pay the fine then they have no shot to get re-listed and all of their stocks/options will be even more worthless than they are already. Given the amount of money they make (given calculations above), the fine is relatively small and the chance to get back on the exchange and move forward with a new business model means a great deal in their pockets in terms of future profits.

[yahboohoo]

There are multiple motives NETeller might have had:

* NETeller sees real business opportunities in its remaining markets and wants to demonstrate its trustworthiness and credibility

* NETeller wants to resume trading shares (someday/somehow)

* Repaying NETeller's US customers was mandated by the USAO and DOJ (unlikely, but possible)

* NETeller reasoned that the cost of repaying its customers is less than the cost of lawsuits it might face (reference: NETeller Customer Coalition)

* NETeller has integrity.

* NETeller made a mistake when it promised to return funds to US customers because it didn't yet realize the full consequences it would face (e.g., the seizure of US customers’ $55 million would be permanent)

* NETeller thinks there is a reasonable chance that it will serve the US market again, and this is there way to cushion their reentry.

* Any combination of these reasons and/or others.


And, as someone else pointed out, this could simply be the technical way NETeller and the US gov't worked out the payment of the fine. The DOJ is thinking, "I'll keep the $55 million I've got already and you pay me the balance."

[bobman0330]

[ QUOTE ]
NETeller could have easily said, "We paid that debt once. You asked for your money and we sent it -- plain and simple. The fact that you didn't receive it is your problem. And now you're asking us to pay you a SECOND time??? If your money was confiscated by the DOJ, we're sorry but that money is gone. If your money was still on account and not part of the funds confiscated, we'll hang onto it indefinitely."

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure they could say this. They could also say, "lolz, we're steeling ur moniez!1!" Neither statement provides any kind of justification for not paying, and if they descended into naked theft of customer funds, their business would evaporate almost immediately, then they would be sued, and then Neteller would be liquidated, and then the managers would be out of a job. So I do think any practical-minded person would do exactly what they're doing.

The kind of conduct that would deserve "a big thank you" would include: not telling self-serving lies to customers about when money would be available, recognizing that the interest they've been racking up for the past 6 months rightfully belongs to us, not them, and, most importantly, paying back the [censored] money already.

[bossplayer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
NETeller could have easily said, "We paid that debt once. You asked for your money and we sent it -- plain and simple. The fact that you didn't receive it is your problem. And now you're asking us to pay you a SECOND time??? If your money was confiscated by the DOJ, we're sorry but that money is gone. If your money was still on account and not part of the funds confiscated, we'll hang onto it indefinitely."

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure they could say this. They could also say, "lolz, we're steeling ur moniez!1!" Neither statement provides any kind of justification for not paying, and if they descended into naked theft of customer funds, their business would evaporate almost immediately, then they would be sued, and then Neteller would be liquidated, and then the managers would be out of a job. So I do think any practical-minded person would do exactly what they're doing.

The kind of conduct that would deserve "a big thank you" would include: not telling self-serving lies to customers about when money would be available, recognizing that the interest they've been racking up for the past 6 months rightfully belongs to us, not them, and, most importantly, paying back the [censored] money already.

[/ QUOTE ]

On the note of needing to say 'thanks' I would also only agree if they had been up front on the customer service side. We were out and out lied to repeatedly, especially in the beginning of this fiasco.

What I don't get is what takes two weeks if the investigation has been concluded. Neteller had just made the announcement they were ready to go when the USAO was done. Oh, wait, interest.

Any guesses as to what the stock value will be when they are unfrozen after the first day? My guess is 30.

[oldbookguy]

[ QUOTE ]
NETeller could have easily said, "We paid that debt once. You asked for your money and we sent it -- plain and simple. The fact that you didn't receive it is your problem. And now you're asking us to pay you a SECOND time???

[/ QUOTE ]

One reason they are paying is after the news broke, many, like myself, called NT and the person on the phone stated making the withdrawal in the days that followed was OK and there were no problems when the main office new better.

obg

[yahboohoo]

Lawrence = $100 million
Lefebvre = $100 million
NETeller = $134 million
=========================
TOTAL = $334 million

[Richas]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand what rights European stockholders have, but can they sue the managers and board over this?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not a lot really. The legal risks in the US were disclosed in the float documentation. The managers were running the business they said they were and would, the DOJ has hurt the shareholders not the managers/board.

The loss in value does however count toward possible WTO sanctions but this would not go to NT shareholders.

Neteller shareholders just have to hope that the DOJ settlement sticks and that they can get on with their business elsewhere to make some money. Longer term they could hope to reenter the US market - If they do please remember that the company used its own money to pay you (fortunately they still have some cash and a smaller business left).

PS on interest - your terms and conditions were no interest, that was the deal, just because the DOJ is only stealing $136m and blocking your payments there is no justification for NT shareholders to take another hit.

[JDalla]

Government Says: 'Supporting illegal gambling is not a business risk, it is a crime'

kind of worries me about getting money online in general...

[Mendacious]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Let me get this straight:

1) The DOJ seized $55-60 million in US citizens' funds.
2) The amount seized does not represent all money owed to US citizens by NETeller.
3) The amount NETeller owes to US citizens is $94 million.
4) The $55-60 million seized by the DOJ were funds that US citizens were trying to withdraw in the wake of the arrests of NETeller's founders in January.
5) The remaining $40 million or so was money NETeller's other US customers had left in their accounts.

Here are the two points I'd really like clarified:
6) The DOJ is keeping the $55-60 million they confiscated.
7) NETeller is going to pay those US customers whose money was part of the $55-60 million the DOJ is keeping.
8) NETeller is paying this money out of its own accounts instead of telling US customers "tough luck, take it up with your own government"

Am I interpreting this situation correctly?

EDIT: Essentially NETeller is going to reissue those withdrawal requests that the DOJ confiscated -- out of its own coffers? If so, I think just about everyone in this forum owes NETeller an apology and a big thank you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. How many people here, if they were running neteller, would do the same?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, but I think this is probably part of the DOJ settlement. But the flip side of this is that Neteller obviously never needed the "frozen funds" to pay all of the US customers, so in essence NETELLER held repayment of American customers hostage using our money as a bargaining chip when they could have sent us all checks 5 months ago. Pragmatic, yes, praiseworthy, no.

[gsolis]

Good point, they had the money to pay us but not sure if this could have been done any sooner, on their own grounds, without NT getting in deeper with DOJ.

Not to say DOJ would have made it a point that US customers not get paid as some recourse but yeah NT did play it passive but maybe their only real play.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
Lawrence = $100 million
Lefebvre = $100 million
NETeller = $134 million
=========================
TOTAL = $334 million

[/ QUOTE ]

'jointly and severally liable' means 100M *total*.

also, it's completely different from Neteller, the company.

[WarmonkEd]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


EDIT: Essentially NETeller is going to reissue those withdrawal requests that the DOJ confiscated -- out of its own coffers? If so, I think just about everyone in this forum owes NETeller an apology and a big thank you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. How many people here, if they were running neteller, would do the same?

[/ QUOTE ]

Everyone? Don't get me wrong, I'm glad they're talking about finally making good, but how much credit do they really deserve for paying their debts 6 months late, in breach of their agreement (I assume, haven't actually researched this), and without interest?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, well I admire your faith in your fellow man.

Although I am annoyed at not getting my money for many months. I'm not so much mad at neteller as I am at the attorney at the DOJ who decided to go after neteller.

[yahboohoo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Lawrence/Lefebvre = $100 million
NETeller = $134 million
=========================
TOTAL = $234 million

[/ QUOTE ]

'jointly and severally liable' means 100M *total*.

also, it's completely different from Neteller, the company.

[/ QUOTE ]
Okay, amount fixed. And yes, I understand that NETeller's fine is separate and distinct from the plea deals with Lawrence and Lefebvre. My point is that $234 million is a nice haul for the US government -- but not as lucrative as taxing the online gaming industry. My guess is that the US gov't doesn't take in $234+ million all that often as a result of (tyranical) legal cases.

[Mendacious]

[ QUOTE ]
Good point, they had the money to pay us but not sure if this could have been done any sooner, on their own grounds, without NT getting in deeper with DOJ.

Not to say DOJ would have made it a point that US customers not get paid as some recourse but yeah NT did play it passive but maybe their only real play.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the only argument that can be made is that they had a duty to their shareholders to use every negotiating tool at their disposal against the DOJ. That would include holding our money hostage. I'm not really judging their actions, just pointing out that their proferred reasons for withholding the money were BS.

[holdme]

The USAO might just hold on to the money until all of the US funds are reallocated.

[Merkle]

And how did you expct them to send you checks with the DOJ seizing funds as they enter the US?

[bossplayer]

[ QUOTE ]
And how did you expct them to send you checks with the DOJ seizing funds as they enter the US?

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't pursue this route, I offered to fly over there and collect my balance. They were not doing this, at all.

[03 Z4]

I would say how we all feel about NT/DOJ at the end is if we do or do not get all our $ back. I have no problem w/ NT not paying us when DOJ seized their funds. I would think the concensus all along is NT was making $ transfer mainly for purpose of internet gambling and that's a big NO-NO in US (you may not agree w/ that principle but that's another story).

[03 Z4]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And how did you expct them to send you checks with the DOJ seizing funds as they enter the US?

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't pursue this route, I offered to fly over there and collect my balance. They were not doing this, at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

I may be wrong but my understanding is DOJ would not allow NT to touch this $.

[bossplayer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And how did you expct them to send you checks with the DOJ seizing funds as they enter the US?

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't pursue this route, I offered to fly over there and collect my balance. They were not doing this, at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

I may be wrong but my understanding is DOJ would not allow NT to touch this $.

[/ QUOTE ]

My money was not frozen, if you are referring to the money in transit that was intercepted.

[03 Z4]

^^^ I meant once DOJ froze their account, NT could not return $ to us if they wanted to.

[Mendacious]

Seems pretty clear to me that in retrospect, Neteller had the funds to pay US customers irrespective of the frozen funds-- as they are forfeiting that $60 Mil. + another $70 Mil. as part of their settlement with the DOJ, and they STILL have the funds to pay.

I agree that they could not have paid electronically, but I see no reason whatsoever that they could not have sent cashier's checks to any customers who requested them. I have no doubt that customers would have paid the fees associated with this. Clearly they had the money to do this, and there is no way whatsoever that the US GOV could have prevented it, short of opening every piece of mail in the system. And I think banks would have had to honor cashier's checks.

Obviously there are many possible justifications for this, but Neteller certainly was misleading about it.

[oldbookguy]

The problem Neteller has was the same as a bank in Macau, the U S froze 25M that belonged to N. Korea.
After unfreezing the funds, it took 60 days (supposed to have been less than 30 and finally ONLY the Federal Reserve could do it since the bank was still on a watch list as NT will be) to transfere the money once unfrozen.

Why, after the bank was under investigation, NO ONE would deal with them in the U S until the DoJ signed a non prosecution agreement with the ACH / funds transfer service for fear dealing in any way with that bank would cause them problems later.

Same for ANY bank transfering money / checks for Neteller to the U. S., that bank / company would then have problems.

BTW, look for this to possibly cause delays July 30 as well, NT will have trouble getting someone to handle the transactions unless the DoJ gives them assurances. That or possibly the Federal Reserve will personally handle the transfers (oh no.......).

obg

[WarmonkEd]

[ QUOTE ]
Seems pretty clear to me that in retrospect, Neteller had the funds to pay US customers irrespective of the frozen funds-- as they are forfeiting that $60 Mil. + another $70 Mil. as part of their settlement with the DOJ, and they STILL have the funds to pay.

I agree that they could not have paid electronically, but I see no reason whatsoever that they could not have sent cashier's checks to any customers who requested them. I have no doubt that customers would have paid the fees associated with this. Clearly they had the money to do this, and there is no way whatsoever that the US GOV could have prevented it, short of opening every piece of mail in the system. And I think banks would have had to honor cashier's checks.

Obviously there are many possible justifications for this, but Neteller certainly was misleading about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

So the DOJ froze funds being transferred electronically from Neteller to US customers, and you think they wouldn't have noticed or minded if Neteller started issuing cashiers checks? Of course they wouldn't have been able to physically stopped it, but it would've ment more fines for Neteller.

(edit: would've -> wouldn't)

[bossplayer]

[ QUOTE ]
The problem Neteller has was the same as a bank in Macau, the U S froze 25M that belonged to N. Korea.
After unfreezing the funds, it took 60 days (supposed to have been less than 30 and finally ONLY the Federal Reserve could do it since the bank was still on a watch list as NT will be) to transfere the money once unfrozen.

Why, after the bank was under investigation, NO ONE would deal with them in the U S until the DoJ signed a non prosecution agreement with the ACH / funds transfer service for fear dealing in any way with that bank would cause them problems later.

Same for ANY bank transfering money / checks for Neteller to the U. S., that bank / company would then have problems.

BTW, look for this to possibly cause delays July 30 as well, NT will have trouble getting someone to handle the transactions unless the DoJ gives them assurances. That or possibly the Federal Reserve will personally handle the transfers (oh no.......).

obg

[/ QUOTE ]

Edit your post please!!! We don't need Neteller execs trying to scout out more ways to earn interest. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Little_Luck]

Neteller is not giving us our money because "its the right thing to do". It sounds more like in the terms of the agreement with the US they have to return that money.

Lol @ apologizing to NT.

[kidpokeher]

I still don't understand why the two founders agreed to plead guilty. They hire high-class D.C. lawyers then agree to an (up to) five year jail sentence over a company they originally founded but were only indirectly affiliated with at the time they were arrested? They're being arrested for retroactive crimes based on a law passed in the future. Sounds like something from Minority Report.

[JPFisher55]

Actually the Neteller case is based on the Wire Act not the UIGEA.

[yahboohoo]

NETeller's U.S. FAQs (http://content.neteller.com/content/en/member_businessupdate_us.htm) were updated today. There may be other revisions, but this one is certainly making some people's fur stand up:

What is the Release?
When US members request to withdraw the funds they will be asked to agree to a Release which, in broad terms, is an agreement between NETELLER and the member that each releases the other from potential legal claims. US members do not need to agree to the Release in order to request and receive the payment of funds. However, US members who do not agree to the Release will, in turn, not be released by NETELLER.

Ummm, screw you NETeller? Why should we agree? And what on earth could NETeller sue us for???

[DMoogle]

[ QUOTE ]
NETeller's U.S. FAQs (http://content.neteller.com/content/en/member_businessupdate_us.htm) were updated today. There may be other revisions, but this one is certainly making some people's fur stand up:

What is the Release?
When US members request to withdraw the funds they will be asked to agree to a Release which, in broad terms, is an agreement between NETELLER and the member that each releases the other from potential legal claims. US members do not need to agree to the Release in order to request and receive the payment of funds. However, US members who do not agree to the Release will, in turn, not be released by NETELLER.

Ummm, screw you NETeller? Why should we agree? And what on earth could NETeller sue us for???

[/ QUOTE ]
Hmm... I don't understand. It looks like agreeing to this release is entirely optional. ?

[PoorLawyer]

[ QUOTE ]
NETeller's U.S. FAQs (http://content.neteller.com/content/en/member_businessupdate_us.htm) were updated today. There may be other revisions, but this one is certainly making some people's fur stand up:

What is the Release?
When US members request to withdraw the funds they will be asked to agree to a Release which, in broad terms, is an agreement between NETELLER and the member that each releases the other from potential legal claims. US members do not need to agree to the Release in order to request and receive the payment of funds. However, US members who do not agree to the Release will, in turn, not be released by NETELLER.

Ummm, screw you NETeller? Why should we agree? And what on earth could NETeller sue us for???

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure they could think of a few things. I'm never at a loss when someone comes into my office /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[bossplayer]

I read into it that 'if we decide to rat you out, you can't claim that you didn't know we would.'

[sublime]

[ QUOTE ]
NETeller's U.S. FAQs (http://content.neteller.com/content/en/member_businessupdate_us.htm) were updated today. There may be other revisions, but this one is certainly making some people's fur stand up:

What is the Release?
When US members request to withdraw the funds they will be asked to agree to a Release which, in broad terms, is an agreement between NETELLER and the member that each releases the other from potential legal claims. US members do not need to agree to the Release in order to request and receive the payment of funds. However, US members who do not agree to the Release will, in turn, not be released by NETELLER.

Ummm, screw you NETeller? Why should we agree? And what on earth could NETeller sue us for???

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah wtf?

anyhwo with this posted, it appears payouts should be coming soon.

[Backspin20]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
NETeller's U.S. FAQs (http://content.neteller.com/content/en/member_businessupdate_us.htm) were updated today. There may be other revisions, but this one is certainly making some people's fur stand up:

What is the Release?
When US members request to withdraw the funds they will be asked to agree to a Release which, in broad terms, is an agreement between NETELLER and the member that each releases the other from potential legal claims. US members do not need to agree to the Release in order to request and receive the payment of funds. However, US members who do not agree to the Release will, in turn, not be released by NETELLER.

Ummm, screw you NETeller? Why should we agree? And what on earth could NETeller sue us for???

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah wtf?

anyhwo with this posted, it appears payouts should be coming soon.

[/ QUOTE ]

Anyone not going to try to withdraw on the 30th? Mad house over there that day

[yahboohoo]

[ QUOTE ]
anyhow with this posted, it appears payouts should be coming soon.

[/ QUOTE ]
Also from the FAQ (http://content.neteller.com/content/en/member_businessupdate_us.htm) (linked again): NETELLER will start the process for the distribution of US member funds by 30 July 2007."

[WarmonkEd]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
NETeller's U.S. FAQs (http://content.neteller.com/content/en/member_businessupdate_us.htm) were updated today. There may be other revisions, but this one is certainly making some people's fur stand up:

What is the Release?
When US members request to withdraw the funds they will be asked to agree to a Release which, in broad terms, is an agreement between NETELLER and the member that each releases the other from potential legal claims. US members do not need to agree to the Release in order to request and receive the payment of funds. However, US members who do not agree to the Release will, in turn, not be released by NETELLER.

Ummm, screw you NETeller? Why should we agree? And what on earth could NETeller sue us for???

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah wtf?

anyhwo with this posted, it appears payouts should be coming soon.

[/ QUOTE ]

Anyone not going to try to withdraw on the 30th? Mad house over there that day

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, you're not going to get your money sooner by waiting...

[yahboohoo]

I'm waiting a few days. I want to see/hear what happens. Besides, it's been 6 months. I think I can wait just a few more days. With Navigant making sure NETeller complies with the DPA -- which includes returning funds to U.S. customers -- I don't think there's really any merit to the "better-get-there-quick-before-the-money's-gone" rationale.

Fear, especially when coupled with greed, is a fascinatingly toxic (and apparently contagious) thing.

[Richas]

[ QUOTE ]
Neteller is not giving us our money because "its the right thing to do". It sounds more like in the terms of the agreement with the US they have to return that money.

Lol @ apologizing to NT.

[/ QUOTE ]

Still looks to me that the NT shareholders are paying out $136m to make sure the US customers are paid out in full. They reached the agreement to be able to complete the payouts, that was not a DOJ priority - after all they stopped them it was a NT priority. Now I think they did the right thing for their remaining business as well as for US customers but please don't pretend that those now getting their money have been the main victims NT shareholders have been and the villain is the DOJ not NT.

I did not say apologise to NT I said people should be grateful that NT did not just say stuff the US and the US customers your beef is with the DOJ, sue them for your money.

As for them asking not to be sued after they return your money, for sometthing that was the DOJ's fault - I don't blame them at all.

[PoorLawyer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Neteller is not giving us our money because "its the right thing to do". It sounds more like in the terms of the agreement with the US they have to return that money.

Lol @ apologizing to NT.

[/ QUOTE ]

Still looks to me that the NT shareholders are paying out $136m to make sure the US customers are paid out in full. They reached the agreement to be able to complete the payouts, that was not a DOJ priority - after all they stopped them it was a NT priority. Now I think they did the right thing for their remaining business as well as for US customers but please don't pretend that those now getting their money have been the main victims NT shareholders have been and the villain is the DOJ not NT.

I did not say apologise to NT I said people should be grateful that NT did not just say stuff the US and the US customers your beef is with the DOJ, sue them for your money.

As for them asking not to be sued after they return your money, for sometthing that was the DOJ's fault - I don't blame them at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

well once you have your money back, there is not much to sue for.

As to the waiver, the question to me is that if someone like the DOJ sues us individually under some interpretation of law(though unlikely) the waiver would prevent you from being indemnified by neteller's part in the whole thing.

[yahboohoo]

From Gaming Intelligence Group (http://gamingintelligencegroup.com)

Neteller Shares Resume Trading on AIM (http://gamingintelligencegroup.com/gig/content/view/433/2/)

July 25, 2007

Shares of the online payment processor Neteller Plc. were today returned to trading on the Alternative Investment Market (AIM) following resolution of the company’s legal situation in the United States and the publication of their 2006 annual audited accounts.

Neteller’s shares had been suspended from trading since 16th January following the arrest of the company’s two founders and former directors, John Lefebvre and Stephen Lawrence. Neteller’s shares were due to have been de-listed from AIM following their suspension which lasted for six months, the maximum length of time that shares may remain suspended under AIM rules.

Following the restoration of Neteller’s shares, Daniel Stewart & Co. Plc has been appointed as the company’s nominated adviser and broker.

Ron Martin, President and CEO said: “The restoration of trading in the Company’s shares marks the first step in a new chapter for the Neteller Group following our resolution with the US authorities announced last week.”

“With our vision to provide innovative payment solutions for e-commerce communities, our initial focus will be to dominate payments in our chosen online gaming markets.”

“Online payments in many market sectors are growing rapidly and we believe that the e-wallet will continue to grow in popularity. While there is much work to do and many challenges lie ahead, we believe that the Company is well positioned to benefit from these trends.”

The company also confirmed that it continues to progress its plans to implement the Distribution Plan for the return of approximately $94 million of US customers’ funds by 30 July 2007.

[bossplayer]

[ QUOTE ]
From Gaming Intelligence Group (http://gamingintelligencegroup.com)

Neteller Shares Resume Trading on AIM (http://gamingintelligencegroup.com/gig/content/view/433/2/)

July 25, 2007

Shares of the online payment processor Neteller Plc. were today returned to trading on the Alternative Investment Market (AIM) following resolution of the company’s legal situation in the United States and the publication of their 2006 annual audited accounts.

Neteller’s shares had been suspended from trading since 16th January following the arrest of the company’s two founders and former directors, John Lefebvre and Stephen Lawrence. Neteller’s shares were due to have been de-listed from AIM following their suspension which lasted for six months, the maximum length of time that shares may remain suspended under AIM rules.

Following the restoration of Neteller’s shares, Daniel Stewart & Co. Plc has been appointed as the company’s nominated adviser and broker.

Ron Martin, President and CEO said: “The restoration of trading in the Company’s shares marks the first step in a new chapter for the Neteller Group following our resolution with the US authorities announced last week.”

“With our vision to provide innovative payment solutions for e-commerce communities, our initial focus will be to dominate payments in our chosen online gaming markets.”

“Online payments in many market sectors are growing rapidly and we believe that the e-wallet will continue to grow in popularity. While there is much work to do and many challenges lie ahead, we believe that the Company is well positioned to benefit from these trends.”

The company also confirmed that it continues to progress its plans to implement the Distribution Plan for the return of approximately $94 million of US customers’ funds by 30 July 2007.

[/ QUOTE ]

And the free fall begins!!! Down from 176 to 63 in one day.

[NesOne]

[ QUOTE ]
And the free fall begins!!! Down from 176 to 63 in one day.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, so exciting, isn't it?

[yahboohoo]

I wonder who's buying. NETeller? It would be a cheap way/time to buy back stock. I'm guessing they have the money (probably a lot more cash on hand than some people give them credit for).

[oldbookguy]

A random thought, perhaps we, who are 'stuck' should band together and buy a voting interest with 10% of all our NT funds........kinda like after 9-11, things went way down, then... up, up and away we went!


obg

[FatalError]

the market did not crash 66% after 9-11

a better comparison would be partygaming stock

[Thremp]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
NETeller's U.S. FAQs (http://content.neteller.com/content/en/member_businessupdate_us.htm) were updated today. There may be other revisions, but this one is certainly making some people's fur stand up:

What is the Release?
When US members request to withdraw the funds they will be asked to agree to a Release which, in broad terms, is an agreement between NETELLER and the member that each releases the other from potential legal claims. US members do not need to agree to the Release in order to request and receive the payment of funds. However, US members who do not agree to the Release will, in turn, not be released by NETELLER.

Ummm, screw you NETeller? Why should we agree? And what on earth could NETeller sue us for???

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah wtf?

anyhwo with this posted, it appears payouts should be coming soon.

[/ QUOTE ]

Keep them from dealing with legal BS the Neteller Customer Coalition wants to put together?

I love how they are the "face" of Neteller customers yet can band together 1/940th of the monies that are held.

[Grisgra]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
NETeller's U.S. FAQs (http://content.neteller.com/content/en/member_businessupdate_us.htm) were updated today. There may be other revisions, but this one is certainly making some people's fur stand up:

What is the Release?
When US members request to withdraw the funds they will be asked to agree to a Release which, in broad terms, is an agreement between NETELLER and the member that each releases the other from potential legal claims. US members do not need to agree to the Release in order to request and receive the payment of funds. However, US members who do not agree to the Release will, in turn, not be released by NETELLER.

Ummm, screw you NETeller? Why should we agree? And what on earth could NETeller sue us for???

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah wtf?

anyhwo with this posted, it appears payouts should be coming soon.

[/ QUOTE ]

Keep them from dealing with legal BS the Neteller Customer Coalition wants to put together?

I love how they are the "face" of Neteller customers yet can band together 1/940th of the monies that are held.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again -- what the hell does it mean to not be "released by NETeller"?

[UATrewqaz]

It's pretty clear they want you to basically agree not to sue them in exchange for getting your money back (it's a good deal you should take it).

Why would they want to have such protection?

Simple, there are lots of "reasons" people would think to try to sue Neteller even after they got their money. Just a few I can think of

1. Suing them for lost interest on large balances, aka "I couldn't get to my money and it cost me thousands in lost interest."

2. Suing them for loss of privacy if you are audited by the IRS "I'm getting audited and it's Neteller's fault because they violated my privacy in turning over my financial records to the IRS.

3. Suing them for "mental suffering", aka "I was so stressed out about possibly not getting my money I deserve compinsations"

and so on.

[BigBiceps]

[ QUOTE ]
It's pretty clear they want you to basically agree not to sue them in exchange for getting your money back (it's a good deal you should take it).

Why would they want to have such protection?

Simple, there are lots of "reasons" people would think to try to sue Neteller even after they got their money. Just a few I can think of

1. Suing them for lost interest on large balances, aka "I couldn't get to my money and it cost me thousands in lost interest."

2. Suing them for loss of privacy if you are audited by the IRS "I'm getting audited and it's Neteller's fault because they violated my privacy in turning over my financial records to the IRS.

3. Suing them for "mental suffering", aka "I was so stressed out about possibly not getting my money I deserve compinations"

and so on.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't want any compinations (whatever those are) I just want my money.

[4_2_it]

The big question is what could NT possibly sue a US customer for? I can't see any reason to give up my right to sue unless someone can come up with a concrete reason why NT might see fit to take legal action against its US customer base.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
The big question is what could NT possibly sue a US customer for? I can't see any reason to give up my right to sue unless someone can come up with a concrete reason why NT might see fit to take legal action against its US customer base.

[/ QUOTE ]

absolutely none that I can think of. I'm guessing it's mostly a 'hope this fake threat works so we can deal with slightly less idiots' tactic.

but really, provided we get our money within the next month, there's no reason to sue them and no benefit from it unless you're Isaac Haxton/possibly not even then.

[DMoogle]

Did you guys all miss that it's optional?
[ QUOTE ]
What is the Release?
When US members request to withdraw the funds they will be asked to agree to a Release which, in broad terms, is an agreement between NETELLER and the member that each releases the other from potential legal claims. US members do not need to agree to the Release in order to request and receive the payment of funds. However, US members who do not agree to the Release will, in turn, not be released by NETELLER.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ackbleh]

[ QUOTE ]
The big question is what could NT possibly sue a US customer for? I can't see any reason to give up my right to sue unless someone can come up with a concrete reason why NT might see fit to take legal action against its US customer base.

[/ QUOTE ]

Disclaimer: I'm as far from a lawyer as you can get.

If there is a way they could sue a customer... and I think it's doubtful there is a way and also doubtful they would choose to ... maybe this is the angle:

1) Neteller's terms of service state that the user is reponsible for knowing the laws in his/her jurisdiction and must use Neteller for only legal activities. (I'm too lazy to check to see that this was the case, but it seems to be a standard CYA inclusion these days)

2) The user knew that online gambling was against the law in his/her jurisdiction, yet still used neteller to withdraw/deposit gambling funds in violation of the law

3) As a direct result of the users' actions, Neteller got screwed by the justice department, causing significant financial damages, loss of future business, etc. In theory neteller lost all of their non-gambling customers in the US, if they ever had any.

4) Users are thus responsible for reparations for the fines, lost business, etc caused by their violation of the terms of service.


There would be so many downsides to Neteller taking legal action along these lines that my head hurts thinking about them all. But unless you had some fairly large (six figure+) amount frozen in neteller all this time, it's hard to imagine that an individual could sue and get any kind of judgement that justified legal costs. Class action suits just make lawyers rich and typically result in settlements that get each of us a coupon for a free soda with purchase of a large pizza, or a $5 check if we fill out 30 mins worth of forms, or some stupid crap like that.

I'll agree to the release because I know I've not suffered damages that make it worth my while to sue Neteller, so I'm not giving up anything there. I'm freerolling on any potential gains I get by their release. They, of course, probably feel the same way.

[oldbookguy]

I thought of that angel as well, however, NT knew the chances and laws when offering the service in the U.S., read the prospectus when they went public.

There was something about U. S. laws possibly affecting the business model, though I doubt they actually thought arrest was in the cards.

obg

[ooooo]

Now if we sign the Release and we don't get are money - is that it? we have no way to get it back??

[smartalecc5]

So when do I get my money god damnit

[frommagio]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Neteller is not giving us our money because "its the right thing to do". It sounds more like in the terms of the agreement with the US they have to return that money.

Lol @ apologizing to NT.

[/ QUOTE ]

Still looks to me that the NT shareholders are paying out $136m to make sure the US customers are paid out in full. They reached the agreement to be able to complete the payouts, that was not a DOJ priority - after all they stopped them it was a NT priority. Now I think they did the right thing for their remaining business as well as for US customers but please don't pretend that those now getting their money have been the main victims NT shareholders have been and the villain is the DOJ not NT.

I did not say apologise to NT I said people should be grateful that NT did not just say stuff the US and the US customers your beef is with the DOJ, sue them for your money.

As for them asking not to be sued after they return your money, for sometthing that was the DOJ's fault - I don't blame them at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll agree that DoJ was the major villain. But I found Neteller's total lack of communication with their customers to be completely unacceptable, and that was under their control.

Assuming that the legal obstacles will have been cleared for US citizens at some point, it would still be extremely unlikely that I would never do business with them again. They would need to come up with a very convincing explanation for their behavior, and back it up with solid evidence. Even then, they would need to provide some major benefits for their customers.

It's similar to my feelings about FullTilt - as a corporation, they fall below the minimum ethical standards that I will accept.

A company needs to respect its customers in order to earn my business. Otherwise, I'll walk; even if they're the only game in town.

[frommagio]

[ QUOTE ]
the market did not crash 66% after 9-11

a better comparison would be partygaming stock

[/ QUOTE ]

Hello? The S&P 500 and the Nasdaq indices were both off considerably more than that from their 2000 peaks. Too young to remember, or were you in CDs and bonds?

[yahboohoo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And what on earth could NETeller sue us for???

[/ QUOTE ]
Keep them from dealing with legal BS the Neteller Customer Coalition wants to put together?

I love how they are the "face" of Neteller customers yet can band together 1/940th of the monies that are held.

[/ QUOTE ]
Last time I totaled the declared balances of the NETeller Customer Coalition's members, it was over $4.25 million, which represents 4.5% of the $94 million owed to U.S. customers (or about 1/22).

Of course, I realize you were exaggerating, but you probably only do that a bazillion times a day.

If you want to examine the NETeller Customer Coalition's database of declared frozen sums, you can see it here (http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/NetellerCustomerCoalition/database?method=reportRows&tbl=2), but you have to be a member (which takes about 20 seconds).

Say what you want about the NETeller Customer Coalition, but this is worth noting: Groups like the NETeller Customer Coalition were all but impossible until just recently. For over 800 people to form a customer advocacy group in a such short period of time -- without spending a single penny -- is pretty amazing. Ten or twenty years ago, the cost of forming such a group would have been in the tens of thousands. And the amount of time it would have taken? It probably would have come together too late to make a difference.

And to those who poo-poo the NETeller Customer Coalition for its inability to take action, I’m absolutely positive that had NETeller come out and said, “Sorry, we aren’t paying,” that the members of that group -- myself included -- would have immediately initiated legal action. At least 800 people were concerned enough that they saw value in forming a group should the time or need present itself.

Had the NETeller Customer Coalition taken action prior to that, I can’t say everyone would be in a better place than we are today.

[yahboohoo]

According to NETeller's press release (http://www.neteller-group.com/press/en/137.htm) issued today, "cash available at 30 June was US$ 210.5 million (prior to the Company’s US$ 136 million US settlement)."

$60 million of that amount had been seized by US authorities. The company agreed to give an additional sum of approximately $76 million as part of its settlement with the USAO. Neteller will satisfy the obligation with a payment of $40 million to be paid on or before October 15th 2007, and the remaining balance to be paid on or before the 17th of January, 2008.

Here's my math:
$210.5 million - $136 million (US fines) - $94 million (US customers) = <font color="red">-$19.5 million</font>

You can check out NETeller's full annual report for 2006 (http://www.neteller-group.com/file/26.pdf) which was also published today.

[Thremp]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The big question is what could NT possibly sue a US customer for? I can't see any reason to give up my right to sue unless someone can come up with a concrete reason why NT might see fit to take legal action against its US customer base.

[/ QUOTE ]

absolutely none that I can think of. I'm guessing it's mostly a 'hope this fake threat works so we can deal with slightly less idiots' tactic.

but really, provided we get our money within the next month, there's no reason to sue them and no benefit from it unless you're Isaac Haxton/possibly not even then.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure they can come up with several good violations etc. to countersue for and tie your money (additional also if you're dumb enough to plunk money down to start a legal battle) up for extended periods.

Its basically a covering their ass deal, and seems to be a great deal to me.

[oldbookguy]

True yaboohoo, however, they have been making money since Dec. 31, 2006 and they will make more before all the DoJ notes are due by 2008.

And who knows, they may be granted an extension on the two notes due to the court....

obg

[coloradoslim]

anybody have an useful thoughts on how long till we see the $$$. im kinda hoping for real insight, not "when hell freezes" type answers .

[stoxtrader]

[ QUOTE ]
According to NETeller's press release (http://www.neteller-group.com/press/en/137.htm) issued today, "cash available at 30 June was US$ 210.5 million (prior to the Company’s US$ 136 million US settlement)."

$60 million of that amount had been seized by US authorities. The company agreed to give an additional sum of approximately $76 million as part of its settlement with the USAO. Neteller will satisfy the obligation with a payment of $40 million to be paid on or before October 15th 2007, and the remaining balance to be paid on or before the 17th of January, 2008.

Here's my math:
$210.5 million - $136 million (US fines) - $94 million (US customers) = <font color="red">-$19.5 million</font>

You can check out NETeller's full annual report for 2006 (http://www.neteller-group.com/file/26.pdf) which was also published today.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont think the customer money is included in the group's cash position. Neteller's "cash position" is its OWN cash, not the cash it holds in trust for customers.... see part of the release i have quoted below:

"""""""""The Company has also agreed that it will, as part of the US resolution, implement the Distribution Plan to return approximately US$ 94 million of funds owed to US customers. This amount is currently held in trust accounts with the Group’s European bankers. The repayment of this amount will have no impact on the Group’s own cash position.""""""""""

[famousanus03]

so what is the best option sign the release or not sign the release i dont know what to do and if there will be consequences for either choice

[yahboohoo]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont think the customer money is included in the group's cash position. Neteller's "cash position" is its OWN cash, not the cash it holds in trust for customers...

[/ QUOTE ]
Good point. Could certainly be true.


[ QUOTE ]
anybody have an useful thoughts on how long till we see the $$$. im kinda hoping for real insight, not "when hell freezes" type answers.

[/ QUOTE ]
More than one source over at the NETeller Customer Coalition site has claimed that the turnaround time from when you request your cashout (commmencing no later than July 30) to when you receive your funds will be about 5 days. I only repeat this because more than one person said "they spoke to someone at NETeller" or "knew someone at NETeller" or something along those lines. It may or may not be true. But it sounds reasonable to me. If they're going to process any requests at all, I have to wonder why it would take more than 5 days -- EFT, no gov't interference.

Any hiccups, I expect, will be from US financial institutions who (erroneously?) reject NETeller transactions for whatever reasons.

[Marklar]

so why exactly does Neteller have to pay the US government $136 Million?

[jkpoker]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
According to NETeller's press release (http://www.neteller-group.com/press/en/137.htm) issued today, "cash available at 30 June was US$ 210.5 million (prior to the Company’s US$ 136 million US settlement)."

$60 million of that amount had been seized by US authorities. The company agreed to give an additional sum of approximately $76 million as part of its settlement with the USAO. Neteller will satisfy the obligation with a payment of $40 million to be paid on or before October 15th 2007, and the remaining balance to be paid on or before the 17th of January, 2008.

Here's my math:
$210.5 million - $136 million (US fines) - $94 million (US customers) = <font color="red">-$19.5 million</font>

You can check out NETeller's full annual report for 2006 (http://www.neteller-group.com/file/26.pdf) which was also published today.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont think the customer money is included in the group's cash position. Neteller's "cash position" is its OWN cash, not the cash it holds in trust for customers.... see part of the release i have quoted below:

"""""""""The Company has also agreed that it will, as part of the US resolution, implement the Distribution Plan to return approximately US$ 94 million of funds owed to US customers. This amount is currently held in trust accounts with the Group’s European bankers. The repayment of this amount will have no impact on the Group’s own cash position.""""""""""

[/ QUOTE ]

Their Cash position most likely doesnt include money already seized either. Which was in the 60 million your adding for the 136 million i believe

[farmslicer7]

Because I can't get an EFT (closed bank account), I have to get a check (6 figs).

Any reason to think this may be a problem depositing it into a bank?

[yahboohoo]

[ QUOTE ]
so why exactly does Neteller have to pay the US government $136 Million?

[/ QUOTE ]
Because NETeller agreed to pay. The US gov't "persuaded" NETeller.

[ QUOTE ]
Their Cash position most likely doesnt include money already seized either. Which was in the 60 million your adding for the 136 million i believe

[/ QUOTE ]
NETeller's press release is pretty specific: "Cash available at 30 June was US$ 210.5 million (prior to the Company’s US$ 136 million US settlement)."

[ QUOTE ]
Because I can't get an EFT (closed bank account), I have to get a check (6 figs).

Any reason to think this may be a problem depositing it into a bank?

[/ QUOTE ]
NETeller has said that the ONLY condition under which it will issue a check is if the bank account tied to your NETeller account has been closed (or rejects the transaction, I assume).

[FatalError]

[ QUOTE ]
Because I can't get an EFT (closed bank account), I have to get a check (6 figs).

Any reason to think this may be a problem depositing it into a bank?

[/ QUOTE ]

14 day hold 4 realz

[Wahoo73]

Your misspelling of the word "compensations" notwithstanding, I think your three possible "reasons" are right on target, with #2 IMO being the most likely.

Which brings me to the point of this post: Have any of you who ARE lawyers read the Deferred Prosecution Agreement (http://content.neteller.com/file/NETELLER_DPA.pdf) signed by Neteller and the DOJ? It would be welcome if some of you lawyers could give us your interpretation of this document, especially the section of it that stipulates the extent of Neteller's cooperation with the DOJ (paragraphs 8-10), and how this agreement for Neteller to cooperate with the DOJ could be related to this Release issue.

[Mendacious]

I don't think that there is much nexus between the DOJ/Neteller agreement and the release, other than it appears as though there are foreign disclosure protection laws which Neteller is agreeing to circumvent and might wish a release for.

It appears as though this gives neteller an ongoing duty to cooperate with the DOJ and FBI concerning its investigations of Neteller's business... which I believe means they are looking for Neteller to help it make more cases against offshore online Sportsbetting sites.

That appears to be the purpose of the agreement, however, I would imagine that either the DOJ or FBI could request information which would be used by other agencies of the GOV-- namely the IRS-- which I think a lot of people are concerned about. But I don't think the waiver affects this at all, and it does appear as though the DOJ/FBI interest is in prosecuting other offshore gambling businesses.

[FatalError]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think that there is much nexus between the DOJ/Neteller agreement and the release, other than it appears as though there are foreign disclosure protection laws which Neteller is agreeing to circumvent and might wish a release for.

It appears as though this gives neteller an ongoing duty to cooperate with the DOJ and FBI concerning its investigations of Neteller's business... which I believe means they are looking for Neteller to help it make more cases against offshore online Sportsbetting sites.

That appears to be the purpose of the agreement, however, I would imagine that either the DOJ or FBI could request information which would be used by other agencies of the GOV-- namely the IRS-- which I think a lot of people are concerned about. But I don't think the waiver affects this at all, and it does appear as though the DOJ/FBI interest is in prosecuting other offshore gambling businesses.

[/ QUOTE ]

good post

i think nailing big sportsbetting companies is a higher priority than nailing tax evaders which there are already a lot of checks and balances for.

especially in the wake of the nba ref scandal

[Poker CPA]

If you were using Neteller as a non US customer, would you leave your cash in your account? Or would you move it ASAP, starting on July 1st, based on this deal?

[jkpoker]

[ QUOTE ]
If you were using Neteller as a non US customer, would you leave your cash in your account? Or would you move it ASAP, starting on July 1st, based on this deal?

[/ QUOTE ]

If they do start paying all US players back then i would consider leaving money in it. I dont see why anyone would be leaving any amount in neteller at the moment if you can still use it.

[Jiganti]

Ok, I haven't read the whole thread, what's the most recent update? Someone told me neteller is going to go back up, is this true?

[xxThe_Lebowskixx]

can we buy neteller stock? when it will start trading? do you think its a good deal?

[yahboohoo]

[ QUOTE ]
can we buy neteller stock? when it will start trading? do you think its a good deal?

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ok, I haven't read the whole thread, what's the most recent update? Someone told me neteller is going to go back up, is this true?

[/ QUOTE ]
All your answers are right here (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&amp;Number=11195092&amp;page=0&amp;fpart=1&amp; vc=1).

[Richas]

[ QUOTE ]
If you were using Neteller as a non US customer, would you leave your cash in your account? Or would you move it ASAP, starting on July 1st, based on this deal?

[/ QUOTE ]

I keep it split between sites and Neteller to spread any risk. None carries interest so spread it around. Having said that Neteller may have lost $136m + more and lost half their business but they still have cash rather than debts on their balance sheet so they are OK (just poorer).

[Legislurker]

Is there any talk of shareholder action over this Richas? You're over there and will hear faster/more than we will.

[oldbookguy]

July 26, 2007
For those who wish to listen, tonight around 9:40-9:45 a VP from Neteller will be on www.roundersradio.com (http://www.roundersradio.com)

obg

[oldbookguy]

Listening to the APCW.org interview with Neteller broadcast on rounders radio at 9:45 PM July 26, 2007, OUR MONEY IS IN A U.S. BANK as of today!

Expected funds transfere time, 3 days, after request made for EFT.

Also stated does NOT think the DoJ will be using the info gleened from NT to go after any U S Citizens.

Also stated they are and have been monitoring forums and paying attention to concerns, trouble is / was they were black-listed from doing ANY business in U S, thus they could not return any funds until the OK was given by the USAO.

Will look at returning to U S / Canada as soon as a method that the government is comforable with permits.

This interview will be archived and as soon as available I will post it.

Also reminded us all to NOT respond to links in e-mails due to phishing, log in directly to the site.

obg

[Ron-Mexico]

[ QUOTE ]

Also stated does NOT think the DoJ will be using the info gleened from NT to go after any U S Citizens.


[/ QUOTE ]

Man I hope not :-]

[B00T]

http://forums.eog.com/online-sportsbooks...part-94839.html (http://forums.eog.com/online-sportsbooks-and-gambling-discussion/updated-neteller-news-guaranteed-withdrawals-part-94839.html)

We can login Monday and get our cash supposedly.

[bluey]

* NETELLER will start the process for the distribution of US member funds by 30 July 2007.
* US members will be notified by email when the process starts.
* US members should also check this site for updates.
* NETELLER will issue an email to US members to announce when they can begin requesting funds.
* US members must sign in to their NETELLER accounts to request the release of their funds.
* US members will not be able to request funds from the NETELLER website after January 26, 2008.
* Funds will be delivered by electronic transfer to the bank account on record with NETELLER or by cheque to the member's mailing address.
* NETELLER will not charge withdrawal fees.
* As NETELLER is returning $94 million to hundreds of thousands of US customers, it will take some time for all payments to be processed.
* Please be careful of any phishing scams. Only log in to the neteller.com website to request the return of funds. Remember it must have neteller.com as the top level domain using the https security protocol - nothing else.


http://content.neteller.com/content/en/member_businessupdate_us.htm#10


im guessing they just have seen this link

[muskie]

Hallelujah!!! I already considered this "dead money". I guess I'll believe it when I see it.

[Richas]

Ugh, they have frozen my UK account for security checks....I have to call them...what do you reckon not a hope in hell of getting through?

[coloradoslim]

use their local number. they seem to answer that one, of course it isnt toll free

[yahboohoo]

[ QUOTE ]
of course it isnt toll free

[/ QUOTE ]
NETeller's new tagline?

[DMoogle]

So... should we be signing the release?

[oldbookguy]

There has been alot of discussion on this, the trouble is we only have a basic outline of it from Neteller, we really need to see the whole thing first.

obg

[blainestar]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I dont think the customer money is included in the group's cash position. Neteller's "cash position" is its OWN cash, not the cash it holds in trust for customers...

[/ QUOTE ]
Good point. Could certainly be true.


[ QUOTE ]
anybody have an useful thoughts on how long till we see the $$$. im kinda hoping for real insight, not "when hell freezes" type answers.

[/ QUOTE ]
More than one source over at the NETeller Customer Coalition site has claimed tthat the turnaround time from when you request your cashout (commmencing no later than July 30) to when you receive your funds will be about 5 days. I only repeat this because more than one person said "they spoke to someone at NETeller" or "knew someone at NETeller" or something along those lines. It may or may not be true. But it sounds reasonable to me. If they're going to process any requests at all, I have to wonder why it would take more than 5 days -- EFT, no gov't interference.

Any hiccups, I expect, will be from US financial institutions who (erroneously?) reject NETeller transactions for whatever reasons.

[/ QUOTE ]

UMMMM wait, are you saying i have 1 day to request my money or I'm [censored]?? i was under the impression you couldn't request it UNTILLL the 30th. WTF?! /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[erac22]

I'm planning on signing the release, but then sending an email stating that I only agree to the terms once I receive my money, and thus reserve the right to sue them if they screw me.

[Halstad]

How long is the time period that US members can request their funds?

The plan provides a 180-day period when US members can make an online request for the return of funds using NETELLER's website. This period will commence by 30 July 2007 and ends at 11:59 PM GMT on 26 January 2008.

[AvivaSimplex]

[ QUOTE ]
So... should we be signing the release?

[/ QUOTE ]

IANAL, but I would strongly suggest not signing the release.

1. You get your money either way. If somehow there's a screwup and you don't get your money, having signed a release can only hurt you.

2. There will be a class action lawsuit. I don't know international banking law well enough to judge the merits of it, but Neteller could be liable for violating terms by prohibiting withdrawals. They might need to pay interest and other compensation for freezing our money. Punitive damages are also possible. Yes, the lawyers will do well from this, but you may also get $100 or more if you had a significant sum locked up.

3. What do you get for signing it? Nothing--just a promise that Neteller won't sue you, which will never happen anyway. If a drunk driver rammed into your car from behind, and then his lawyer offered not to sue you if you didn't sue him, would you agree?

[xxThe_Lebowskixx]

[ QUOTE ]
It's pretty clear they want you to basically agree not to sue them in exchange for getting your money back (it's a good deal you should take it).

Why would they want to have such protection?

Simple, there are lots of "reasons" people would think to try to sue Neteller even after they got their money. Just a few I can think of

1. Suing them for lost interest on large balances, aka "I couldn't get to my money and it cost me thousands in lost interest."

2. Suing them for loss of privacy if you are audited by the IRS "I'm getting audited and it's Neteller's fault because they violated my privacy in turning over my financial records to the IRS.

3. Suing them for "mental suffering", aka "I was so stressed out about possibly not getting my money I deserve compinsations"

and so on.

[/ QUOTE ]

LETS FILE A MUTHERFLUCKING CLASS ACTION AGAINST NETELLER

[smartalecc5]

money first plz

[farmslicer7]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's pretty clear they want you to basically agree not to sue them in exchange for getting your money back (it's a good deal you should take it).

Why would they want to have such protection?

Simple, there are lots of "reasons" people would think to try to sue Neteller even after they got their money. Just a few I can think of

1. Suing them for lost interest on large balances, aka "I couldn't get to my money and it cost me thousands in lost interest."

2. Suing them for loss of privacy if you are audited by the IRS "I'm getting audited and it's Neteller's fault because they violated my privacy in turning over my financial records to the IRS.

3. Suing them for "mental suffering", aka "I was so stressed out about possibly not getting my money I deserve compinsations"

and so on.

[/ QUOTE ]

LETS FILE A MUTHERFLUCKING CLASS ACTION AGAINST NETELLER

[/ QUOTE ]

lets just wait until we get our checks/ETFs please /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[GrandMelon]

We have to sign the release to be able to get our money back correct?

[PoorLawyer]

[ QUOTE ]
We have to sign the release to be able to get our money back correct?

[/ QUOTE ]

no.

I also don't know why everyone is so certain they don't want neteller's agreement not to sue you. If they are liable for damages, they would otherwise have every right to go after the people who actually knowingly requested the illegal transactions against their TOC.

[AvivaSimplex]

Was it against their TOC to transfer to gambling sites?

[coxquinn]

anyone know what time this starts? it's already july 30 GMT

[chopstick]

* NETELLER will issue an email to US members to announce when they can begin requesting funds.

--

I eagerly await the first post confirming this email has been sent out.

[jkpoker]

did they say july 30 07 or 08??

[PrimogenitoX]

Withdrawal options are currently suspended for US members.

WTF ITS JULY 30 SHIP IT NOW CRUCIAL

[coxquinn]

[ QUOTE ]
Withdrawal options are currently suspended for US members.

WTF ITS JULY 30 SHIP IT NOW CRUCIAL

[/ QUOTE ]

[smartalecc5]

waiiiiiiiiiiiiitinggggggggggg

[gsolis]

"Now we play the waiting game... aw, the waiting game sucks. Let's play Hungry Hungry Hippos"

[UbinTook]

Just got off chat with NT, i was told that the withdrawl option would be...
"activated some time today, we do not have an further information as to when"

[sonofstev]

Wouldn't you like to be Isaac Haxton right now?

[bluey]

god dammit i want my money.

[ike]

[ QUOTE ]
Wouldn't you like to be Isaac Haxton right now?

[/ QUOTE ]

Being Isaac Haxton is overrated.

[sonofstev]

Haw!
Seriously though, pretty excited?

[Bill Ivey]

[ QUOTE ]
Just got off chat with NT, i was told that the withdrawl option would be...
"activated some time today, we do not have an further information as to when"

[/ QUOTE ]

If this isn't true you are one cruel person

[UbinTook]

Here is a chat i just finished about email...
You are now chatting with 'Robyn'
Robyn: Welcome to our live chat service. How may we help you?

UbinTook: hello, i was just curious...will ALL U.S. customers be receiving an email regarding the withdrawal option being active? (Regardless of marketing preferences previously set in account options)

Robyn: The withdrawal options will be available to all NETELLER customers as of today

UbinTook: ok, but I understood an email was going to be sent out regarding such, is that true and will I receive it?

Robyn: We are not sending out emails unless required

UbinTook: what would make it "required"....any link to the "release" available yet?

Robyn: I am unsure as to what you are requiring?

UbinTook: From the neteller "distribution plan summary" on the update page...

UbinTook: US members will be notified by email when the process starts.

UbinTook: will we or will we not be notified, if, as you say we will be notified only "if required" what circumstance would need to exist in order to MAKE it required?

UbinTook: also...

Robyn: As I said the process will start today. You will need to occasionally check your NETELLER account to see if the withdrawal option has been activated but it will be today

Robyn: Are you requesting to be notified?

UbinTook: ok, sure

UbinTook: I just thought that since it SAYS we will be notified on the FAQ page we would be...that is what I was asking

UbinTook: As to the "release"

UbinTook: From the updates page...

UbinTook: What is the Release? When US members request to withdraw the funds they will be asked to agree to a Release which, in broad terms, is an agreement between NETELLER and the member that each releases the other from potential legal claims. US members do not need to agree to the Release in order to request and receive the payment of funds. However, US members who do not agree to the Release will, in turn, not be released by NETELLER.

UbinTook: Is that release available to be viewed so as to be able to make an informed decision on whether to accept or deny said release?

Robyn: I do not have any further information beyond what has been released in the July 18 press release

UbinTook: ok thank you...will I be notified by email when the withdrawal option is activated?

Robyn: No. It will be available today (this after she asked if i was requesting to be notified)



So it seemswe arent getting notified by email...unless "required", whatever THAT means.

[kioshk]

[ QUOTE ]
Here is a chat i just finished about email...
You are now chatting with 'Robyn'
Robyn: Welcome to our live chat service. How may we help you?

UbinTook: hello, i was just curious...will ALL U.S. customers be receiving an email regarding the withdrawal option being active? (Regardless of marketing preferences previously set in account options)

Robyn: The withdrawal options will be available to all NETELLER customers as of today

UbinTook: ok, but I understood an email was going to be sent out regarding such, is that true and will I receive it?

Robyn: We are not sending out emails unless required

UbinTook: what would make it "required"....any link to the "release" available yet?

Robyn: I am unsure as to what you are requiring?

UbinTook: From the neteller "distribution plan summary" on the update page...

UbinTook: US members will be notified by email when the process starts.

UbinTook: will we or will we not be notified, if, as you say we will be notified only "if required" what circumstance would need to exist in order to MAKE it required?

UbinTook: also...

Robyn: As I said the process will start today. You will need to occasionally check your NETELLER account to see if the withdrawal option has been activated but it will be today

Robyn: Are you requesting to be notified?

UbinTook: ok, sure

UbinTook: I just thought that since it SAYS we will be notified on the FAQ page we would be...that is what I was asking

UbinTook: As to the "release"

UbinTook: From the updates page...

UbinTook: What is the Release? When US members request to withdraw the funds they will be asked to agree to a Release which, in broad terms, is an agreement between NETELLER and the member that each releases the other from potential legal claims. US members do not need to agree to the Release in order to request and receive the payment of funds. However, US members who do not agree to the Release will, in turn, not be released by NETELLER.

UbinTook: Is that release available to be viewed so as to be able to make an informed decision on whether to accept or deny said release?

Robyn: I do not have any further information beyond what has been released in the July 18 press release

UbinTook: ok thank you...will I be notified by email when the withdrawal option is activated?

Robyn: No. It will be available today (this after she asked if i was requesting to be notified)



So it seemswe arent getting notified by email...unless "required", whatever THAT means.

[/ QUOTE ]

My guess is that Robyn has no idea what she's talking about.

[chopstick]

[ QUOTE ]
Just got off chat with NT, i was told that the withdrawl option would be...
"activated some time today, we do not have an further information as to when"

[/ QUOTE ]

I think Vegas has the line set at 11:59pm tonight.

[xxThe_Lebowskixx]

have any 2+2 lawyers given an offical opinion on whether to sign or not to sign that contract?

[sightless]

[ QUOTE ]
have any 2+2 lawyers given an offical opinion on whether to sign or not to sign that contract?

[/ QUOTE ]

[PoorLawyer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
have any 2+2 lawyers given an offical opinion on whether to sign or not to sign that contract?

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

WOOOHOOOOO I just withdrew!!!!!

[Nick Rivers]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
have any 2+2 lawyers given an offical opinion on whether to sign or not to sign that contract?

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

WOOOHOOOOO I just withdrew!!!!!

[/ QUOTE ]
That's great, but did you sign the release or not?

[tangled]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
have any 2+2 lawyers given an offical opinion on whether to sign or not to sign that contract?

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

WOOOHOOOOO I just withdrew!!!!!

[/ QUOTE ]
That's great, but did you sign the release or not?

[/ QUOTE ]


I did and screen said it should take up to 3 business days to hit my account

[ooooo]

ok there open

did sign it..(I'm not suing anyone...are u kidding me? i don't have the time or even care!) GL to me on getting my money back!!! /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[oldbookguy]

Same, same, now lets hope the three days is a correct time estimate!

obg

[mo42nyy]

just withdrew
did not sign the release as I had a very large balance and lost a ton of money in neteller fees when i did peer to peer xfers as well as in interest lost and once I get this money I want to look into my other options.

[tangled]

[ QUOTE ]
just withdrew
did not sign the release as I had a very large balance and lost a ton of money in neteller fees when i did peer to peer xfers as well as in interest lost and once I get this money I want to look into my other options.

[/ QUOTE ]

How long did it say about getting ur $ back?

[mo42nyy]

it said it should be processed in 3 business days

[tangled]

then you were smarter than me

[mo42nyy]

im not sure what you had in their but if I had a lot less in there I would have accepted the agreement since I wouldnt be able to sue for anything worthwhile if I chose to go that route.

[LL2318]

Withdrew!!!!!!

Had around 1.5k, signed release

[toddxlogan]

My account is still closed. Am I the only one like this?

[BigAlK]

[ QUOTE ]
My account is still closed. Am I the only one like this?

[/ QUOTE ]

I may also have this problem. Tried to log-on to request a withdrawl and got an error saying my account was closed. I was able to log in a few weeks ago. I'm out of the country right now, hopefully that didn't cause a problem.

[farmslicer7]

Just withdrew, and like mo42Nyy did not sign the release (had a large amount in there)

[MrWookie]

I just got my 3k out. I didn't sign the release.

[gsolis]

Just withdrew, signed, &lt;5K, 3 biz days it said to process.

One second after I withdrew, I got notification email from NT.

" The NETELLER Plc Group has announced that the distribution of funds to its US members will begin on July 30, 2007.

You are receiving this e-mail because our records reflect that you are a US member who may request funds from NETELLER. As of July 30, you will be able to make a request for funds on NETELLER&amp;#146;s website by signing in to your account. In the meantime, you should visit our online FAQs for more information about the distribution plan.

Please note that US members will not be able to request funds from the NETELLER website after January 26, 2008.
NETELLER Plc Group"

[Triumph36]

hm i didn't realize you could get the money out without signing the release

o well, that's a beat - hopefully i don't get screwed

[briton]

[ QUOTE ]
hm i didn't realize you could get the money out without signing the release

o well, that's a beat - hopefully i don't get screwed

[/ QUOTE ]

I do not understand how we could get screwed? Anyone have any idea?

[repulse]

Withdrew, did not sign.

It seems very unlikely that they would offer the option of this release if they were planning on bringing any legal action against their customers, which I think is an unlikely thing to begin with. Some sort of class-action suit or the potential need to involve Neteller in a DOJ/IRS attack on the individual online poker player, on the other hand, seem very slightly more likely.

[astarck]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My account is still closed. Am I the only one like this?

[/ QUOTE ]

I may also have this problem. Tried to log-on to request a withdrawl and got an error saying my account was closed. I was able to log in a few weeks ago. I'm out of the country right now, hopefully that didn't cause a problem.

[/ QUOTE ]

After talking to support about a month ago they said to email them a copy of your driver's license and a copy of your bank statement. Unfortunately, I forgot where they said to send the email and I haven't felt like paying to make another international phone call. I sent my first email to support@neteller.com about a week ago and haven't gotten a response. This morning I sent the same email to admin@neteller.com.

[toddxlogan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My account is still closed. Am I the only one like this?

[/ QUOTE ]

I may also have this problem. Tried to log-on to request a withdrawl and got an error saying my account was closed. I was able to log in a few weeks ago. I'm out of the country right now, hopefully that didn't cause a problem.

[/ QUOTE ]

I, too, am out of the country. In Australia for the next 5 months. Wonder if this is the issue?

[oldbookguy]

From the Neteller update FAQ's

Can US members log in from a country other than the United States to initiate a withdrawal?
No. This will result in the account being closed. Closed accounts can only be reopened by NETELLER Fraud and Security.

obg

[Valhalla1]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My account is still closed. Am I the only one like this?

[/ QUOTE ]

I may also have this problem. Tried to log-on to request a withdrawl and got an error saying my account was closed. I was able to log in a few weeks ago. I'm out of the country right now, hopefully that didn't cause a problem.

[/ QUOTE ]

I, too, am out of the country. In Australia for the next 5 months. Wonder if this is the issue?

[/ QUOTE ]

the FAQ page says if you login from overseas to a USA account it will be closed and can only be re-opened by Neteller Fraud and Security

[BigAlK]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My account is still closed. Am I the only one like this?

[/ QUOTE ]

I may also have this problem. Tried to log-on to request a withdrawl and got an error saying my account was closed. I was able to log in a few weeks ago. I'm out of the country right now, hopefully that didn't cause a problem.

[/ QUOTE ]

I, too, am out of the country. In Australia for the next 5 months. Wonder if this is the issue?

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe just coincedental, no way to know for sure. It gives a phone number to call for closed accounts. However I doubt mine is actually close because I just got the email from Netteller everyone else is getting so I don't have any other explanation. Will get home tonight so I'm planning on trying again tomorrow from there.

[Skipbidder]

Just withdrew. Amount suspiciously close to 10K without quite reaching it. (Hello structuring?)

Did not sign the release. Maybe I'll get $5 in the future from a class action suit.

Went through the transaction history and have a question...

Anybody know which site would be listed as Best Pay Financial as the debit?

[BigAlK]

[ QUOTE ]

From the Neteller update FAQ's

Can US members log in from a country other than the United States to initiate a withdrawal?
No. This will result in the account being closed. Closed accounts can only be reopened by NETELLER Fraud and Security.

obg

[/ QUOTE ]

Dam. Wish I'd thought of this first. Hopefully this will prevent someone else from making the same mistake.

[Wahoo73]

I just did my Neteller withdrawal. Although I still have the same bank account associated with Neteller that I have always had, and I never had any difficulty prior to January 18th in making electronic deposits or withdrawals, the bank information that was presented to me for verification today was inaccurate. The bank account number that Neteller showed me was missing two digits and the routing number was completely wrong. As much as I would have preferred receiving my money via EFT, I opted for Neteller to send me a check.

A word to the wise: make absolutely certain that the account information that Neteller asks you to verify is 100% accurate!

[NewTeaBag]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

From the Neteller update FAQ's

Can US members log in from a country other than the United States to initiate a withdrawal?
No. This will result in the account being closed. Closed accounts can only be reopened by NETELLER Fraud and Security.

obg

[/ QUOTE ]

Dam. Wish I'd thought of this first. Hopefully this will prevent someone else from making the same mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep. They screwed me on this one as well.
I now live in Thailand. Of course they don't answer their phone or reply to emails.

[UATrewqaz]

Withdrew 7.5K, did not sign the release, said ~3 days like everyone else.

[Domeo]

4.6k, did not sign...3 days it said

[SNGplayer24]

anyone know how long checks will take? im assuming the 3 days of processing, then how long?

[Triumph36]

[ QUOTE ]
I just did my Neteller withdrawal. Although I still have the same bank account associated with Neteller that I have always had, and I never had any difficulty prior to January 18th in making electronic deposits or withdrawals, the bank information that was presented to me for verification today was inaccurate. The bank account number that Neteller showed me was missing two digits and the routing number was completely wrong. As much as I would have preferred receiving my money via EFT, I opted for Neteller to send me a check.

A word to the wise: make absolutely certain that the account information that Neteller asks you to verify is 100% accurate!

[/ QUOTE ]

[censored] - i didn't check on this - any ideas on what might happen if the numbers end up being inaccurate?

[SackUp]

Withdrew, signed.

I'd rather just be done with them. Plus, after a cursory review it doesn't look like anything they do post withdraw is released, so if they try to eff us by selling our information or anything else later on then they are not released from that liability.

[sightless]

withdrew ~5k did not sign the release
will take 3 business days..

[smartalecc5]

Ok I accepted... I hope I didn't screw myself... I just wanted to be done with em

[EGO]

If the transfer didn't process yet, then you can always cancel the withdrawal and check your account info.

[By-Tor]

I initiated my withdrawal this morning like everyone else. Signed the disclaimer. Site did not appear to be bogged down at all.


In previous times, when I would request a withdrawal before 11am PST, by midday the button to cancel the transaction would be replaced with 'pending' and my funds would be in my bank the next day.

This is also the behavior with todays transaction and I think that there is a fairly good chance I will have my funds tomorrow.

I have always received 'as expected' service from them and I'm actually going to miss Neteller if they never re-enter the US market.

If they do, I will give them my business again despite the past year+ troubles.


Thanks again for all the updates on this.

[ooooo]

nice spot..mine says pending all ready too...!!

[MotorBoatingSOB]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I just did my Neteller withdrawal. Although I still have the same bank account associated with Neteller that I have always had, and I never had any difficulty prior to January 18th in making electronic deposits or withdrawals, the bank information that was presented to me for verification today was inaccurate. The bank account number that Neteller showed me was missing two digits and the routing number was completely wrong. As much as I would have preferred receiving my money via EFT, I opted for Neteller to send me a check.

A word to the wise: make absolutely certain that the account information that Neteller asks you to verify is 100% accurate!

[/ QUOTE ]

[censored] - i didn't check on this - any ideas on what might happen if the numbers end up being inaccurate?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm kind of glad I looked at this closely. My routing number was correct but the account number was wrong.

Anybody have any guesses as to what happens if they have incorrect info and you go through with the transfer?

[el pez grande]

Yeah, the last 4 or 5 digits on my routing number were completely wrong as well so keep an eye out for this shady [censored].

[peatr999]

at this point is there any reason not to withdraw immediately? I'm paranoid everyone withdrawing at the same time will jam up the system and cause problems freezing my money.

[mo42nyy]

i didnt pay very close attetnion to the acct # listed- it looked right but I didnt double check it
Were most peoples acct numbers correct?

[gsolis]

I checked routing/bank acct and they were correct for me. will post when i get home if this is already "Pending"...

[mo42nyy]

mine says pending as well
is there any way to check what bank info was used now?

[farmslicer7]

Yo, I just got my tracking number (I requested a check) and the fedex says it'll be here tomorrow. I wasn't expecting this kind of turnaround. anyone else get a tracking number already?

[toddxlogan]

I just called NT Australia. Talked to Security. She opened my account, walked me through the process, and I got to withdraw via EFT before she locked my account again.

I highly recommend calling the locally listed toll free office. If that doesn't work, hell, call Australia.

Can't believe it worked that easily.


[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

From the Neteller update FAQ's

Can US members log in from a country other than the United States to initiate a withdrawal?
No. This will result in the account being closed. Closed accounts can only be reopened by NETELLER Fraud and Security.

obg

[/ QUOTE ]

Dam. Wish I'd thought of this first. Hopefully this will prevent someone else from making the same mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep. They screwed me on this one as well.
I now live in Thailand. Of course they don't answer their phone or reply to emails.

[/ QUOTE ]

[xxx]

Requested EFT, routing/acct # OK, didn't sign.

C'MON NETELLER!
ONE TIME BABY, ONE TIME!

[chopstick]

Just put in my request.

Did not agree to the release.
Routing &amp; Account numbers were correct.
Got the "about 3 days for your EFT" response.

Screenshot of the first page (the bulk of it) of the Release Agreement, thumbnailed to keep the thread from scrolling.

http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/1318/netellerwdfinalreleasefi0.th.jpg (http://img216.imageshack.us/my.php?image=netellerwdfinalreleasefi0.jpg)

Full text of the release for those interested:


Release

You and NETELLER Plc Group (each, a “Releasing Party”) mutually release, waive, and discharge each other (each, a “Released Party”) from any and all manner of actions, causes of action, suits, promises, damages, judgments, executions, claims, counterclaims, demands, and any other form of liability whatsoever, in law or equity, known or unknown, that the Releasing Party ever had, now has, or hereafter can, shall, or may have against the Released Party from the date You opened Your Account to the Effective Date with respect to Your request to receive funds under the Distribution Plan and Your Account.

The additional definitions below apply to this release:

“You” or “Your” refers to you and any of your assigns, heirs, executors, agents, or anyone else acting on your behalf or in your capacity.

“NETELLER Plc Group” means NETELLER plc and its predecessors, successors, present and former affiliated companies, subsidiaries, assigns, officers, directors, stockholders, employees, and agents.

“Your Account” means your online stored value account with the Neteller plc Group, or any of them, which holds electronic money.

“Distribution Plan” means the distribution plan announced by NETELLER Plc Group on 4 June 2007 pursuant to agreements with the United States Attorney’s Office for the Southern District of New York and Navigant Consulting, Inc.

“Effective Date” means the date on which You successfully withdraw funds from Your Account under the Distribution Plan.


---

gg Neteller

[1meandog4u]

[ QUOTE ]
I just did my Neteller withdrawal. Although I still have the same bank account associated with Neteller that I have always had, and I never had any difficulty prior to January 18th in making electronic deposits or withdrawals, the bank information that was presented to me for verification today was inaccurate. The bank account number that Neteller showed me was missing two digits and the routing number was completely wrong. As much as I would have preferred receiving my money via EFT, I opted for Neteller to send me a check.

A word to the wise: make absolutely certain that the account information that Neteller asks you to verify is 100% accurate!

[/ QUOTE ]

I used to be an operation's officer with BofA. Many branches of that bank, specifically in California, changed their bank routing numbers. I called BofA's wire transfer department today to verify a few things.

BTW, my info was correct, just calling for others. They said that if the routing number was incorrect, it would be rejected within 24 hours and returned to the sender (Neteller or Navagant??) and they would have to either correct it, or in our case they are supposedly going to issue a check.

[gsolis]

[ QUOTE ]
I checked routing/bank acct and they were correct for me. will post when i get home if this is already "Pending"...

[/ QUOTE ]

Mine is Pending, cancel option gone...anxiously awaiting tomorrow now.

[FatalError]

the money is already in my account, thats pretty god damn amazing

[DeuceHigh80]

same here... $2k requested yesterday about 10:00am, in my account (Chase) this morning.

[DVDA4life]

I also just received 14k ~17 hours after withdrawing.

[mo42nyy]

[censored] yea
just checked my credit union account and its in there
Im gonna go to their with a wheel barrow take it all out in singles, dump it all over floor and swim around in it like scrooge macduck then bring it back tomorrow.

[ChexNFX]

What do all of your Neteller withdrawal request status say? I'm curious if they say "pending" with the people that received their money already.