HAL LUBARSKY. BLIND MAN TO GO ALL THE WAY [Archive]

wheels25

07-13-2007, 10:04 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I read this story yesterday and was a bit surprised that they are letting someone do this. I guess they would not want the negative press that would come with telling a handicapped person that they cannot play because of their disability. It's still like 100x better than the guy with no arms who was looking at his hole cards with his feet. I'm sorry but that was just gross.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, that guy last year was not funny to watch.

chicken10der

07-13-2007, 10:06 AM

I have absolutely no idea what to think about this situation.

nvarner

07-13-2007, 10:08 AM

This proves how ridiculous Harrah's is and maybe it is because of the concern for receiving negative PR. But you can't speak a foreign language at the table and you can't have an IPhone, but someone can whisper in your ear what other players are doing and possibly how to play your hand? Don't get me wrong I feel bad that he's blind, but this shouldn't be allowed.

wheels25

07-13-2007, 10:08 AM

Would it really be good for poker if the blind man would make it real deep in the ME?

Honestly, I don`t know about that.

Austiger

07-13-2007, 10:29 AM

Wow you guys are dicks. The guy is f-ing blind. Give him a break. Do you really think this is some blind poker strategy expert and his tell-master prodigy assistant teaming up to gain an unfair advantage? Oh, and sory you were so grossed out by the guy with no arms. He should definitely not be allowed in a casino.

SossMan

07-13-2007, 10:32 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Wow you guys are dicks. The guy is f-ing blind. Give him a break. Do you really think this is some blind poker strategy expert and his tell-master prodigy assistant teaming up to gain an unfair advantage? Oh, and sory you were so grossed out by the guy with no arms. He should definitely not be allowed in a casino.

[/ QUOTE ]

seriously, wtf?
I can gaurantee you that that guy's feet were cleanter than 99% of poker players' cum stained hands.

Bdidd

07-13-2007, 10:37 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Wow you guys are dicks. The guy is f-ing blind. Give him a break. Do you really think this is some blind poker strategy expert and his tell-master prodigy assistant teaming up to gain an unfair advantage? Oh, and sory you were so grossed out by the guy with no arms. He should definitely not be allowed in a casino.

[/ QUOTE ]

seriously, wtf?
I can gaurantee you that that guy's feet were cleanter than 99% of poker players' cum stained hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

I LOLed

ACG2x

07-13-2007, 10:39 AM

If Harrah's did ban him from playing, they could be getting a call from the ACLU or some other such group due to violation of some part of the Americans with Disabilites Act. If the guy has 10K and wants to put it up to play and only requires "reasonable accomodations", then Harrah's has to let him play.

Having a person sit behind him and tell him his hole cards and the action while revealing nothing else is a reasonable accomodation. Letting a guy pick up his cards with his feet instead of his hands is absolutely a reasonable accomodation.

Plus the PR Harrah's would get if they said no when the blind guy already had his own reasonable accomodation lined up (i.e.- he brought his own hole card reader) is way outweighed by just letting him play.

Now if the guy signed up and said Harrah's had to provide him with a hole card reader or something like that, I can see them saying no.

zerocarb

07-13-2007, 10:39 AM

hamsamich

07-13-2007, 10:53 AM

AC...I totally agree that Harrah's let him play to avoid bad press. To be fair, what about the one player per hand rule? As gross as I think the guy reading his cards with his feet was, at least he was able to play his own hand with no assistance. If the blind guy can get someone to tell him his cards why couldn't that poor bastard get someone to tell him what his cards were instead of flashing his nutsak to everyone at the table every hand?

Jeff76

07-13-2007, 10:56 AM

[ QUOTE ]
But you can't speak a foreign language at the table and you can't have an IPhone, but someone can whisper in your ear what other players are doing and possibly how to play your hand?

[/ QUOTE ]Are you seriously worried that this guy is cheating somehow? IPhones and foreign languages are banned to prevent people from having information they shouldn't- do you really think Lubarsky is playing with information he shouldn't have? How is he gaining this extra information- it's not like his assistant is privy to more information than anyone else.

nvarner

07-13-2007, 11:02 AM

I'm just saying that rules are rules - there shouldn't be exceptions. This was done to make Harrah's look better and for ESPN to have a nice story for TV. At least the guy with no arms was actually playing his cards without any assistance (except from the dealer moving chips in and out of the pot). I'm not saying he's cheating or that he would.

hamsamich

07-13-2007, 11:06 AM

I totally disagree. Poker is a game played by one person per hand. Any deviation from that gives that player an edge (even if very small) over the other people at the table. I am not saying he is cheating or getting information that is not available to the other players, but the way in which his hand is being played *could* provide him with an edge that is not available to the other players. He has one less thing to concern himself with at the table and that could be developed into an edge.

TMTTR

07-13-2007, 11:42 AM

Personally, I think that the card readers should have been provided by Harrahs and rotated in and out at random times by the TDs. It is not that Lubarsky would or could cheat, it is the appearance of fairness. I don't know the logisitics being used, but other than the precise cards in the blind player's hand, I would think that it would be "more fair" for the reader to announce all other action aloud so everyone heard exactly what the blind player heard.

Aside: I have played low stakes poker with a guy who was legally blind in Atlantic City. He was able to see his own cards, but had to hold them up to his face. The dealer would announce the board cards and the action to the entire table so that everyone heard the same information. The player sat in the one seat so that he could hear the dealer clearly over the other sounds of the poker room. He wasn't very good anyway...

Jack Bando

07-13-2007, 11:46 AM

How about they just record what the reader says?

"The guy in seat 2 is named Mike, he folded." okay
"Mike scrunched his eyebrows when the flop came out." okay
"Mike's probably got you beat." no.

Number27

07-13-2007, 11:50 AM

I can't believe some of you are worried about the card reader violating the one player per hand rule. It's not like Phil Ivey is his assistant (although that would be a funny mspaint). If the guy were good enough at cards to coach a blind guy through the main event don't you think he would be playing the event himself?

NCAces

07-13-2007, 12:02 PM

I believe he does a little more than just read the board. For example, someone in a previous thread said that he was describing the people around him and described the 2+2r as "Avalanche" because of his large stack of chips. Now, I know that is just an objective description, but what if he said, "Seat 4 is playing weak, tight" or some other comment that is more subjective? Would that be allowed?

I am for letting the guy play because (1) it is likely required by law, (2) the right thing to do, and (3) the guy has been a regular for years in Vegas (it isn't as if this is some publicity ploy). But, the idea that the whisperer be someone he doesn't know sounds reasonable if that person is only supposed to be giving objective information like reading the board.

An interesting side note ... we have a person in our monthly tournament who is losing his sight. We read him the board. I was talking to him the other day about tells, and he is aware of how he asks what the board is may let us know the strength of his hand. He tells me he sometimes asks for information that he already knows/remembers so as to throw us off.

NCAces

hamsamich

07-13-2007, 12:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
How about they just record what the reader says?

"The guy in seat 2 is named Mike, he folded." okay
"Mike scrunched his eyebrows when the flop came out." okay
"Mike's probably got you beat." no.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jack....I hope you are kidding.
I would love to be able to enter a tourney and have someone concentrate on player reaction while I crunch numbers. Tell ya what. I'll play you heads up with my eyes closed the whole time but I get to have someone whispering to me the whole time following your rules of what is OK and what is not.
Sound good?

whodeyflyer

07-13-2007, 12:17 PM

I heard he has a small group of supporters known as the braille-birds.

Dunkman

07-13-2007, 12:22 PM

Crunch numbers? What the hell are you talking about? (If poker math is that hard for you I'm gonna suggest no 10k buyin tourneys.) This is ridiculous, the blind guy is still at a disadvantage, obviously the card reading person isn't going to offer as much information as someone with his experience would be able to see. I honestly don't know what the hell is wrong with you guys, thinking he has some enormous advantage by being blind. If it's so great, go stab your eyes out and get the monies.

bravos1

07-13-2007, 12:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm just saying that rules are rules - there shouldn't be exceptions. This was done to make Harrah's look better and for ESPN to have a nice story for TV. At least the guy with no arms was actually playing his cards without any assistance (except from the dealer moving chips in and out of the pot). I'm not saying he's cheating or that he would.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL.. NO, this one done because he has every legal right to play.

To those that have played with him, how and when is his partner relaying info. Ex. He tells him his hole cards, and then what? I'm just wondering if he just whispered the hole cards and everthing else was verbal enough for everyone else to hear (action, stack sizes, etc.) or if he whispered that info as well.

Do you guys really think he is getting MORE information by having his assistant there? Are you kidding me? He is getting at least 10x LESS info.

hamsamich

07-13-2007, 12:39 PM

From the WSOP Rules....
The one-player-to-a-hand rule will be compulsory.

Someone PLEASE tell me how this guy is not violating this rule. I don't give a rats ass about his personal situation. I could come with 100 other situations that would make it impossible for someone to play without violating this rule. Does that mean they should all be permitted to play too just because they have the 10k? Having the buy-in is only a PART of the requirement to play in this event. The other is being able to play the game with no assistance.

Rainbow Warrior

07-13-2007, 12:41 PM

Braille cards!!??
...and the dealer announcing the board and the bets?

Damn...
...braille chips??

KHALI

07-13-2007, 12:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Final proof that live tells are indeed overrated??

[/ QUOTE ]

Even though he cant see there are still plenty of tells for him to "see" so to speak.
He may actualy have an advantage in reading people's voice inflections,pacing, speech patterns etc... as I am assuming he would be more in tune with that. Would it be possible to play against him stating you are mute so you dont have to speak so he cant pick up on it? MAybe the Humberto thumbs up sign to raise then slide chips in silently.

And my two cents I would rather sit with the guy who plays with his feet than that smelly British guy or some fat bastard who stinks like ass and takes up 3 seats with half his gut hanging over your lap.

SuperUberBob

07-13-2007, 12:44 PM

Couldn't this guy fake being blind and have somebody help him out with his hand? Or did he have to show medical documentation to prove that he was blind?

truthadair1

07-13-2007, 12:46 PM

I'm just wondering if he just whispered the hole cards and everthing else was verbal enough for everyone else to hear (action, stack sizes, etc.) or if he whispered that info a no just the hole cards are whispered the rest is so the table can hear what is said

Austiger

07-13-2007, 12:48 PM

What if he won the event and his assistant pulled off his mask "Mission Impossible" style and it was ZeeJustin?

hamsamich

07-13-2007, 12:57 PM

Just a little taste from one of the many articles about this.....

And the readers do let little details slip through. When Lubarsky's reader told him two young men across the table were doing chip tricks, flipping the disks through their fingers, Lubarsky knew he was dealing with hot shots. Amateurs. Showoffs. He took this into consideration when he played his hand , and beat them both.

Now you can have whatever opinion you want about the value, or lack thereof, of that information. That's not the point. The point is that this second individual IS influencing how the hand is being played by seat #x and that violates the rules.

bravos1

07-13-2007, 12:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
What if he won the event and his assistant pulled off his mask "Mission Impossible" style and it was ZeeJustin?

[/ QUOTE ]

And then Hal also pulls off his mask and he too is ZeeJustin!

AngusThermopyle

07-13-2007, 01:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The point is that this second individual IS influencing how the hand is being played by seat #x and that violates the rules.

[/ QUOTE ]

Did his assistant say "You have two hotshots across from you, play them this way..."?

Or did he just report the facts, like your two functioning eyes do for you?

Sponger.

07-13-2007, 01:01 PM

Ok who wants to pay his assistant $50,000 to tell him the wrong hand so it causes him to bust out.

hamsamich

07-13-2007, 01:05 PM

I'm starting to think Lubarsky may only be sightless while so many others are the ones who are truly 'blind'.

sirtimo

07-13-2007, 01:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I heard he has a small group of supporters known as the braille-birds.

[/ QUOTE ]

can't believe this didn't get more love..... NH lol

revots33

07-13-2007, 01:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I would love to be able to enter a tourney and have someone concentrate on player reaction while I crunch numbers. Tell ya what. I'll play you heads up with my eyes closed the whole time but I get to have someone whispering to me the whole time following your rules of what is OK and what is not.
Sound good?

[/ QUOTE ]

So u are saying you would play poker better if you were blind and had someone whispering your hole cards to you? Why? Wouldn't you rather be able to see your opponents for yourself and make your own judgments rather than rely on someone else's eyes?

The idea that this is some huge advantage for the blind guy is silly. Bottom line: he cannot play unless someone tells him what cards he has. It is wrong to deny him the chance to play when a simple adjustment ("reasonable accommodation" in ADA terms) can allow him to participate.

And as for the guy who played with his feet... if u lost your arms tomorrow u think you should be banned from poker tournaments because some random opponent thinks feet are "gross"?

bravos1

07-13-2007, 01:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Would it be possible to play against him stating you are mute so you dont have to speak so he cant pick up on it? MAybe the Humberto thumbs up sign to raise then slide chips in silently.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you want to do this you can...you do not have to speak.. just put your chips in the pot if you want to raise. You don't have to say a word. Is it probably in your best interest to state your actions, sure, but not required.

Dunkman

07-13-2007, 01:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
From the WSOP Rules....
The one-player-to-a-hand rule will be compulsory.

Someone PLEASE tell me how this guy is not violating this rule. I don't give a rats ass about his personal situation. I could come with 100 other situations that would make it impossible for someone to play without violating this rule. Does that mean they should all be permitted to play too just because they have the 10k? Having the buy-in is only a PART of the requirement to play in this event. The other is being able to play the game with no assistance.

[/ QUOTE ]

The Americans with Disabilities Act makes this a moot point. If you have a rule that doesn't provide reasonable accommodations for someone with a disability, you have to change it. End of story. I mean you can just say no, but Hal would take more than first place in the ME with the civil suit that would follow. So, instead of changing the rule, the Harrah's has apparently just made some exceptions on a case by case basis. Their choices are to make accommodations or get the [censored] sued out of them. They chose the former.

hamsamich

07-13-2007, 02:00 PM

I know that's what they did. That doesn't make it right.
I think next year I will make it my business to have a medical diagnosis of my agoraphobia on hand and demand to play the entire tourney in a private room. Let's see how many people line up behind me in support.

You guys are blowing the edge I've mentioned wayyyy out of proportion. I never said he had a huge edge, or any edge at all for that matter. I simply said that the potential for one is there and IMO the tournament rule of one player to a hand is being compromised here. I never said that the guy shouldn't be permitted to play, I just don't care for the solution.

I wonder how early this guy registered? I mean, if he showed up super early so that a good solution could be worked out that's cool. If he came in last minute I would think it's at least possible that he's angling for the lawsuit and that's pretty low.

Dynasty

07-13-2007, 02:14 PM

Some of you guys are being foolish.

Hal has been a semi-pro (maybe full pro) in Las Vegas for longer than most of you have been playing poker. He doesn't need or want anybody to help him play his hands. His assistant almost certainly plays worse than Hal. He just needs somebody to help him see.

I was actually sitting back to back with Hal a couple weeks ago. I was in a 20-40 limit game at the Mirage and he was playing 2-5 no-limit. I could occassionally hear what was being said and it was all basic information such as hole cards (which I never heard), board cards, stack sizes, and bets.

Austiger

07-13-2007, 02:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I heard he has a small group of supporters known as the braille-birds.

[/ QUOTE ]

can't believe this didn't get more love..... NH lol

[/ QUOTE ]

I hope he doesn't get blinded out.

chicken10der

07-13-2007, 02:26 PM

OHHHH NOOOOOO!!!!

hamsamich

07-13-2007, 02:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I heard he has a small group of supporters known as the braille-birds.

[/ QUOTE ]

can't believe this didn't get more love..... NH lol

[/ QUOTE ]

I hope he doesn't get blinded out.

[/ QUOTE ]

He already has a bracelet anyway...He won the $500 Blind Mans Bluff event

chicken10der

07-13-2007, 02:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
OHHHH NOOOOOO!!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

Cornell Fiji

07-13-2007, 02:31 PM

Los Feliz Slim

07-13-2007, 02:31 PM

This should only be allowable if the assistant is deaf.

Fermion5

07-13-2007, 02:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I heard he has a small group of supporters known as the braille-birds.

[/ QUOTE ]

can't believe this didn't get more love..... NH lol

[/ QUOTE ]

I hope he doesn't get blinded out.

[/ QUOTE ]

finally some one liners. I wonder if he ever says "I see your 50 and raise you 100."

Los Feliz Slim

07-13-2007, 02:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I wonder if he ever says "I see your 50 and raise you 100."

[/ QUOTE ]

He's blind, not stupid.

Bidz

07-13-2007, 02:46 PM

"Lubarsky checks in the dark ..."

BradleyT

07-13-2007, 02:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What if he won the event and his assistant pulled off his mask "Mission Impossible" style and it was ZeeJustin?

[/ QUOTE ]

And then Hal also pulls off his mask and he too is ZeeJustin!

[/ QUOTE ]

This one was good.

Swede

07-13-2007, 02:49 PM

No hate. Go Hal!

Los Feliz Slim

07-13-2007, 02:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
"Lubarsky checks in the dark ..."

[/ QUOTE ]

lol

EdCota

07-13-2007, 02:53 PM

Hal, if you're reading this, I want you to know I'm pulling for you.

eimajination

07-13-2007, 02:55 PM

"i'll call you blind."

Jeff76

07-13-2007, 03:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't give a rats ass about his personal situation.

[/ QUOTE ]Clearly.

It turns out, however, that many other people DO care about his personal situation. In fact, enough people care that we collectively have decided that a disabled person should have accommodation's made so that he can participate in events like this. That is why the law is what it is. And unlike SOME laws, I'm willing to bet the disabilities act actually represents the will of the people fairly well.

You not caring about his personal situation does not change the law. You might think about what it says about you, though.

chicken10der

07-13-2007, 03:02 PM

less outrage, more double entendres

revots33

07-13-2007, 03:03 PM

he just wants to see the flop

mtgordon

07-13-2007, 03:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
What if he won the event and his assistant pulled off his mask "Mission Impossible" style and it was ZeeJustin?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm late to the party but I was definitely expecting something like this on the 1st page.

Jeff76

07-13-2007, 03:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I know that's what they did. That doesn't make it right.

[/ QUOTE ]Making reasonable accommodation's so that a disabled person can play in their tournament isn't right? Even when it does not violate the SPIRIT of the rule you keep bringing up (which is to prevent people from having an unfair advantage in the game)?

What wouldn't be right is excluding people with physical disabilities from a game of psychology and logic. What wouldn't be right is having a society where people who physically are different from the majority are treated like 2nd class citizens and cannot enjoy activities available to the masses without good reason.

And no, citing the "one player per hand" rule (which is in place to prevent people having an unwarranted advantage) is not a good reason, especially when there is no way Lubarsky has an advantage due to the special accommodation's made.

RobAtticus

07-13-2007, 03:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I know that's what they did. That doesn't make it right.

...

You guys are blowing the edge I've mentioned wayyyy out of proportion. I never said he had a huge edge, or any edge at all for that matter. I simply said that the potential for one is there and IMO the tournament rule of one player to a hand is being compromised here. I never said that the guy shouldn't be permitted to play, I just don't care for the solution.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, it does make it right. The ADA requires they make reasonable changes to allow him to play. If you built a building that needs to be accessed by wheelchair bound people but did not make ramps, you need to fix your building. You cannot say "Sorry, it would hurt our budget." -- you have to do it.

It's discrimination to not allow him to play because he is blind and is just asking for somebody to act as his eyes. It seems that the information he is getting, besides the hole cards, is at least audible to the people around him. I think if his assistant was giving him information that is not allowed, it would have been brought up by now.

Everyone is getting so upset that he is getting all the same information you guys are allowed to get, and he is probably still missing a lot. His assistant tells him that two people are doing chip tricks, and you guys are all upset? Why is he not allowed to know this but everyone else is? Hal might have heard this information and gone "Cool." or he might have made some judgments about the people, but his assistant did not provide him with those judgments. Hal is a perfectly competent poker player, he knows how to evaluate information just fine.

Austiger

07-13-2007, 03:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
"i'll call you blind."

[/ QUOTE ]

Lon McEchern called and you're due in the green room.

Black Aces 518

07-13-2007, 03:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What if he won the event and his assistant pulled off his mask "Mission Impossible" style and it was ZeeJustin?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm late to the party but I was definitely expecting something like this on the 1st page.

[/ QUOTE ]

you really are late to the party if you regged in 05 and this wasn't on the 1st page for you

seriously, it's amazing this guy has the results he has, being one of the blinds on every hand

secretprankster

07-13-2007, 03:47 PM

Over/under on minutes ESPN devotes to this?

Synergistic Explosions

07-13-2007, 04:09 PM

Anyone who doesn't understand the importance of equal access to opportunities for the disabled must be cold hearted snobs.

People with disabilities live a hard life on the most part. Give them a break and try to understand that all they want is an equal chance. They don't want your pity, they just want an equal chance. Having a man whisper the cards into a blind mans ear is not giving him an unfair advantage.

So quit the moaning.

imjoshsizemore

07-13-2007, 04:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Over/under on minutes ESPN devotes to this?

[/ QUOTE ]

5-10 on one of the regular episodes, prolyl more if he gets further. WHICH I HOPE HE DOES! GO HAL!!

Zetack

07-13-2007, 04:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I know that's what they did. That doesn't make it right.

...

You guys are blowing the edge I've mentioned wayyyy out of proportion. I never said he had a huge edge, or any edge at all for that matter. I simply said that the potential for one is there and IMO the tournament rule of one player to a hand is being compromised here. I never said that the guy shouldn't be permitted to play, I just don't care for the solution.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, it does make it right. The ADA requires they make reasonable changes to allow him to play. If you built a building that needs to be accessed by wheelchair bound people but did not make ramps, you need to fix your building. You cannot say "Sorry, it would hurt our budget." -- you have to do it.
.
It's discrimination to not allow him to play because he is blind and is just asking for somebody to act as his eyes. It seems that the information he is getting, besides the hole cards, is at least audible to the people around him. I think if his assistant was giving him information that is not allowed, it would have been brought up by now.
.
Everyone is getting so upset that he is getting all the same information you guys are allowed to get, and he is probably still missing a lot. His assistant tells him that two people are doing chip tricks, and you guys are all upset? Why is he not allowed to know this but everyone else is? Hal might have heard this information and gone "Cool." or he might have made some judgments about the people, but his assistant did not provide him with those judgments. Hal is a perfectly competent poker player, he knows how to evaluate information just fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its been stated a lot in this thread as fact that the ADA requires a resonable accomodation. I'm hoping somebody with some knowledge on the subject can weigh in on the subject and say whether that's true.

My knowledge of the ADA could be described as cursory at best, and non-existant at worst, but I'm under the impression that while it clearly requires that a casino wold have to make reasonable accomodation to allow a disabled person into the building, rooms, showers, gambling area's, etc. I'm not at all clear that it requires reasonable accomodation to play in a poker tournament.

Does anybody know for sure if it does?

--Zetack

Cat

07-13-2007, 04:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would love to be able to enter a tourney and have someone concentrate on player reaction while I crunch numbers. Tell ya what. I'll play you heads up with my eyes closed the whole time but I get to have someone whispering to me the whole time following your rules of what is OK and what is not.
Sound good?

[/ QUOTE ]

So u are saying you would play poker better if you were blind and had someone whispering your hole cards to you? Why? Wouldn't you rather be able to see your opponents for yourself and make your own judgments rather than rely on someone else's eyes?

The idea that this is some huge advantage for the blind guy is silly. Bottom line: he cannot play unless someone tells him what cards he has. It is wrong to deny him the chance to play when a simple adjustment ("reasonable accommodation" in ADA terms) can allow him to participate.

And as for the guy who played with his feet... if u lost your arms tomorrow u think you should be banned from poker tournaments because some random opponent thinks feet are "gross"?

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT. I just cannot believe how many disgusting and selfish responses there are in this thread. So Hal and the guy who used his feet should just stay at home because they offend you? You are [censored] revolting excuses for human beings. /images/graemlins/mad.gif /images/graemlins/mad.gif /images/graemlins/mad.gif

Chump Change

07-13-2007, 04:52 PM

Chump Change

07-13-2007, 05:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
"Seat 4 is playing weak, tight" or some other comment that is more subjective? Would that be allowed?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why wouldn't it be?

What would be the difference between that one player razzing another player, for all the table to hear, about playing too tight?

Hal already has the 'weak, tight' read based on the previous action, the assistant doesn't need to reiterate said information.

Black winter day

07-13-2007, 05:03 PM

Does he have to post the blinds?

Austiger

07-13-2007, 05:04 PM

It would be great if he was a trash-talker. Anybody seen that Curb Your Enthusiasm with the blind guy that gets Larry and Richard Lewis to move his furniture?

Chump Change

07-13-2007, 05:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Crunch numbers? What the hell are you talking about? (If poker math is that hard for you I'm gonna suggest no 10k buyin tourneys.) This is ridiculous, the blind guy is still at a disadvantage, obviously the card reading person isn't going to offer as much information as someone with his experience would be able to see. I honestly don't know what the hell is wrong with you guys, thinking he has some enormous advantage by being blind. If it's so great, go stab your eyes out and get the monies.

[/ QUOTE ]

Beat me to the punch, well said sir.

Chump Change

07-13-2007, 05:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
It would be great if he was a trash-talker. Anybody seen that Curb Your Enthusiasm with the blind guy that gets Larry and Richard Lewis to move his furniture?

[/ QUOTE ]

Bwahaha dude is a world class hustler. He became an regular character later on.

TMTTR

07-13-2007, 05:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Its been stated a lot in this thread as fact that the ADA requires a resonable accomodation. I'm hoping somebody with some knowledge on the subject can weigh in on the subject and say whether that's true.

My knowledge of the ADA could be described as cursory at best, and non-existant at worst, but I'm under the impression that while it clearly requires that a casino wold have to make reasonable accomodation to allow a disabled person into the building, rooms, showers, gambling area's, etc. I'm not at all clear that it requires reasonable accomodation to play in a poker tournament.

Does anybody know for sure if it does?

[/ QUOTE ]

Caveat: I am a lawyer but I am not an expert on the ADA. This is not legal advise and should not be relied on as such. [Now doesn't that sound lawyerly.]

I think this would be similar to Casey Martin's case against the PGA. Casey Martin was afflicted with a degenerative muscular disease (I believe) and he wanted to use a golf cart. PGA said no -- walking was a requirement on the professional golf tour. Supreme Court found for Martin and allowed him to use the golf cart.

The law found applicable in the Martin case (and is likely to be equally applicable of Lubarsky and Harrahs) is Title III of the ADA. That section requires an entity operating "public accommodations" to make "reasonable modifications" in its policies "when... necessary to afford such...accommodations to individuals with disabilities, unless the entity can demonstrate that making such modifications would fundamentally alter the nature of such...accommodations."

Allowing someone to whisper the cards to a blind man and provide him other objective information (I do not believe he should be describing players reactions to cards, but can describe stack sizes, etc.) is a reasonable modification which does not fundamentally alter the tournament. (Some will argue that the one-player-to-a-hand rule is fundamental, but based on the reasoning in the PGA case, that argument is likely to fail.)

Chump Change

07-13-2007, 05:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Does he have to post the blinds?

[/ QUOTE ]

I wish there was an accurate visual of the 'ba-dum-crash' drum fill.

Srrsrly, I don't think i'd have to stick to games with just antes.

Shrug

07-13-2007, 05:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm starting to think Lubarsky may only be sightless while so many others are the ones who are truly 'blind'.

[/ QUOTE ]
/images/graemlins/heart.gif

jimmytrick

07-13-2007, 05:14 PM

Poker players are the world's foremost cripple shooters and they don't want a blind man to play?

Borgland

07-13-2007, 05:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hal, if you're reading this, I want you to know I'm pulling for you.

[/ QUOTE ]

*groan* /images/graemlins/cool.gif

Chump Change

07-13-2007, 05:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
takes up 3 seats with half his gut hanging over your lap.

[/ QUOTE ]

With the right perspective, that might be kinda cozy.

Austiger

07-13-2007, 05:18 PM

TMTTR- I thought of the Casey Martin case too, but IMO that is different because golf is an athletic event and players obv. would have an edge if they got to use a cart. Martin was asking to be excused from a part of the game that takes energy out of you. (Granted, he is afflicted with an energy-draining disease already, but anyway...) A blind man being "excused" from having to look at the action himself by having it relayed to him, really doesn't give him any advantage, and none of the other players would have an advantage if they were allowed an assistant to relay the action to them. It's merely a question of "is he using the assistant for more than relaying the action." So as long as Hal is playing by the rules and not using his assistant for advice and such, he has no advantage.

TMTTR

07-13-2007, 05:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
TMTTR- I thought of the Casey Martin case too, but IMO that is different because golf is an athletic event and players obv. would have an edge if they got to use a cart.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with that. It just makes the blind poker player's case better than Martin's... and Martin won his case on every level.

Austiger

07-13-2007, 05:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
TMTTR- I thought of the Casey Martin case too, but IMO that is different because golf is an athletic event and players obv. would have an edge if they got to use a cart.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with that. It just makes the blind poker player's case better than Martin's... and Martin won his case on every level.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I don't think it's even debatable that the guy should be allowed to play, morally, ethically, legally, or anything else. I couldn't imagine anyone challenging it, although reading this thread...

Chump Change

07-13-2007, 05:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I couldn't imagine anyone challenging it, although reading this thread...

[/ QUOTE ]

You once were blind but now you see?

doublejoker

07-13-2007, 06:08 PM

The guy with is feet is William Rockwell. He is a solid player and sterilizes his feet prior to playing. What is wrong with this?

Dynasty

07-13-2007, 06:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hal, if you're reading this, I want you to know I'm pulling for you.

[/ QUOTE ]

*groan* /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Hal's sight was better a few years ago and didn't use an assistant. He simply had extreme difficulty seeing.

He may still have enough sight to read. But, it seems his vision is getting much worse over time.

pacino

07-13-2007, 06:41 PM

Go Hal, screw the haters

Temp Hutter

07-13-2007, 06:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hal, if you're reading this, I want you to know I'm pulling for you.

[/ QUOTE ]

*groan* /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Hal's sight was better a few years ago and didn't use an assistant. He simply had extreme difficulty seeing.

He may still have enough sight to read. But, it seems his vision is getting much worse over time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Did he use to hold the cards right up in front of his nose to see them? I played with a guy that did this a few years ago. He was legally blind and had very thick glasses. I wonder if this is the same guy.

PokeReader

07-13-2007, 06:58 PM

Likewise, go Hal. It's riduculous to say it's not still harder for him.

Synergistic Explosions

07-13-2007, 07:02 PM

When are they going to start calling him 'The Big Lubarsky'?

Dynasty

07-13-2007, 07:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Did he use to hold the cards right up in front of his nose to see them? I played with a guy that did this a few years ago. He was legally blind and had very thick glasses. I wonder if this is the same guy.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think so. In fact, I don't remember Hal ever wearing glasses.

Hal appears to be in his forties and is "Greg Raymer shaped".

DevilJax

07-13-2007, 07:55 PM

http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/sun/2007/jul/07/566650951.html?LUBARSKY

Story has photos of Hal and his assistant. GO HAL!

wheels25

07-13-2007, 07:57 PM

btw, he is out of the ME.

PokeReader

07-13-2007, 07:59 PM

Nice run, gg. Bad last hand though, no draw, no hand, what were you doing???

RobAtticus

07-13-2007, 08:04 PM

He had a gutshot draw -- not much, but still better than no draw. Might have thought his ace was live too

Black winter day

07-13-2007, 08:09 PM

Elliminated...If pokernews were correct in describing the hand, he played it pretty bad.
Unless, he floated the flop and bluff raised the turn, thinking the villain would fold anything except a set?

daryn

07-13-2007, 08:27 PM

i wonder if he checks in the dark a lot

GroundFloor

07-13-2007, 08:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hal appears to be in his forties and is "Greg Raymer shaped".

[/ QUOTE ]

gives new meaning to the term "big blind"...

cero_z

07-13-2007, 09:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How about they just record what the reader says?

"The guy in seat 2 is named Mike, he folded." okay
"Mike scrunched his eyebrows when the flop came out." okay
"Mike's probably got you beat." no.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jack....I hope you are kidding.
I would love to be able to enter a tourney and have someone concentrate on player reaction while I crunch numbers. Tell ya what. I'll play you heads up with my eyes closed the whole time but I get to have someone whispering to me the whole time following your rules of what is OK and what is not.
Sound good?

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow I'm getting to this thread late but you are a [censored] joke. "Crunch numbers," huh? Yeah there are some pretty heavy-duty computations that have to happen at the poker table, and it would be a monstrous advantage to be able to focus all your energy on the all-important number crunching.

Also, I can't recall if it was you or some other jagoff who complained about the guy with no arms playing, but I think it's also terrible that we let people with wheelchairs come to the table and make us scoot over. How am I supposed to crunch numbers with these selfish quadriplegics taking up the space reserved for my abacus?

pdk

07-13-2007, 10:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]

And as for the guy who played with his feet... if u lost your arms tomorrow u think you should be banned from poker tournaments because some random opponent thinks feet are "gross"?

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm sure david williams would help him out

Biggle10

07-13-2007, 11:35 PM

http://plusev.net/d/20070305.html

nath

07-13-2007, 11:38 PM

psyduck

07-14-2007, 12:28 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How about they just record what the reader says?

"The guy in seat 2 is named Mike, he folded." okay
"Mike scrunched his eyebrows when the flop came out." okay
"Mike's probably got you beat." no.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jack....I hope you are kidding.
I would love to be able to enter a tourney and have someone concentrate on player reaction while I crunch numbers. Tell ya what. I'll play you heads up with my eyes closed the whole time but I get to have someone whispering to me the whole time following your rules of what is OK and what is not.
Sound good?

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow I'm getting to this thread late but you are a [censored] joke. "Crunch numbers," huh? Yeah there are some pretty heavy-duty computations that have to happen at the poker table, and it would be a monstrous advantage to be able to focus all your energy on the all-important number crunching.

Also, I can't recall if it was you or some other jagoff who complained about the guy with no arms playing, but I think it's also terrible that we let people with wheelchairs come to the table and make us scoot over. How am I supposed to crunch numbers with these selfish quadriplegics taking up the space reserved for my abacus?

[/ QUOTE ]

lolololol owned in the face

beaver

07-14-2007, 12:34 AM

SB BB???? BB/HR?

Ckrad

07-14-2007, 01:49 AM

very solid run.

Daliman

07-14-2007, 02:14 AM

[ QUOTE ]
This proves how ridiculous Harrah's is and maybe it is because of the concern for receiving negative PR. But you can't speak a foreign language at the table and you can't have an IPhone, but someone can whisper in your ear what other players are doing and possibly how to play your hand? Don't get me wrong I feel bad that he's blind, but this shouldn't be allowed.

[/ QUOTE ]
I played with him for over 3 hours on Day 1D, and as soon as I sat down, I was wondering what I would do if I saw his seeing-eye man whisper in his ear while he was in a hand after telling him his cards. It never came up, and it seems they both know pretty well what is kosher and what is not. When we played together, the only time the SEM would whisper in his ear other than to tell him what his hand was was when a new player sat at the table, he'd tell him what he looked like, stack size, etc.

GAMB00L

07-14-2007, 03:59 AM

[ QUOTE ]
It's not like Phil Ivey is his assistant (although that would be a funny mspaint).

[/ QUOTE ]

http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/2856/ivey3ao9.jpg

davebwell

07-14-2007, 06:25 PM

The Absurdist

07-14-2007, 08:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How about they just record what the reader says?

"The guy in seat 2 is named Mike, he folded." okay
"Mike scrunched his eyebrows when the flop came out." okay
"Mike's probably got you beat." no.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jack....I hope you are kidding.
I would love to be able to enter a tourney and have someone concentrate on player reaction while I crunch numbers. Tell ya what. I'll play you heads up with my eyes closed the whole time but I get to have someone whispering to me the whole time following your rules of what is OK and what is not.
Sound good?

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow I'm getting to this thread late but you are a [censored] joke. "Crunch numbers," huh? Yeah there are some pretty heavy-duty computations that have to happen at the poker table, and it would be a monstrous advantage to be able to focus all your energy on the all-important number crunching.

Also, I can't recall if it was you or some other jagoff who complained about the guy with no arms playing, but I think it's also terrible that we let people with wheelchairs come to the table and make us scoot over. How am I supposed to crunch numbers with these selfish quadriplegics taking up the space reserved for my abacus?

[/ QUOTE ]

lolololol owned in the face

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT