The purpose of college education [Archive] - Two Plus Two Newer Archives

RoundGuy

07-13-2007, 09:36 AM

[ QUOTE ]
"College serves as a very expensive socially mandated rubber stamp for being considered intelligent enough to hold most good paying jobs"

[/ QUOTE ]
And it allows our young ones to party their ass off, with little care or concern, before they get into the real world and have to work off the massive debt they've incurred over the last four years.

knowledgeORbust

07-13-2007, 04:12 PM

I went with a combination.

Sure, for society a degree means you're capable and organized. But the other stuff is important too for being well-balanced, if one is missing it. Each individual can gain what he/she is lacking. Thinking critically, social skills, and learning the skills that will be employed for your profession: all good stuff. Sure, if you've got all that stuff you can dive right into work keep sharp... but college is more fun.

GoodCallYouWin

07-13-2007, 04:57 PM

"What is the primary goal when we send young students to get a university education?"

D) Fool ourselves into thinking we can teach people how to learn.

Taraz

07-13-2007, 05:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
"What is the primary goal when we send young students to get a university education?"

D) Fool ourselves into thinking we can teach people how to learn.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you want to abolish college education?

Siegmund

07-13-2007, 05:32 PM

I went with the necessary skills. I was surprised at how small of a minority I was in.

Thinking critically may happen to be one of those skills, yes. But the whole socialization, diversity, and rubberstamping thing explains a whole lot about what is wrong with how our universities work. Having spent most of my adult life at a university (state university with more or less open enrollment), can tell you about 2/3 of those who enroll have no business whatsoever being here, and something around 1/3 of those who get given the degrees STILL do did not get anything out of the experience but a piece of paper. These people NEED to be kicked to the curb, not babied along until they graduate, if degrees are going to mean anything at all.

Not that it'll ever happen. But yes, I'd like to see the university system shrink to half its current size, with much more severe enrollment standards imposed.

GoodCallYouWin

07-13-2007, 05:52 PM

"
So you want to abolish college education? "

No, but I think the people who pay to go through it are wasting their money.

m_the0ry

07-13-2007, 06:57 PM

This varies too much from degree to degree for there to be any meaningful answer without differentiating between degrees.

Rearden

07-13-2007, 07:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This varies too much from degree to degree for there to be any meaningful answer without differentiating between degrees.

[/ QUOTE ]

And sometimes the effort people are willing to put into degrees.... huge difference between a 2.1 business major and a 3.9 guy who has done internships, etc etc.

Metric

07-13-2007, 07:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Not that it'll ever happen. But yes, I'd like to see the university system shrink to half its current size, with much more severe enrollment standards imposed.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not exactly sure what this would accomplish. There is demand for universities, both on the student side and the professor side -- I kind of like the fact that there's a supply to fill it. Are you thinking of replacing it with a different-but-better system, or something?

Duke

07-13-2007, 07:18 PM

How about: "It's a signaling device to employers that you're willing and able to "do things" for a somewhat extended period of time, with little or no reward."

There is nothing about a typical college education that involves complex material.

Taraz

07-13-2007, 08:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This varies too much from degree to degree for there to be any meaningful answer without differentiating between degrees.

[/ QUOTE ]

What about general education requirements and things of that sort? I agree that if you want to get certain jobs you will need to complete some of the training in college, but what about the idea of higher education in general?

Nielsio

07-13-2007, 08:22 PM

I voted other and you can find why here:

http://img.youtube.com/vi/Q_DRw1Ajr4o/default.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_DRw1Ajr4o

Aver-aging

07-13-2007, 10:22 PM

One of my professors, after I had expressed discontent in higher education, explained university as "an institution that serves to raise the standards of conformity for a massive amount of people." I think I agree with that statement. In general, lazy people have to gain somewhat of a work ethic (even if they are intelligent) to get through it, unthoughtful people have to become slightly more thoughtful, and in general everyone's mind is opened up a little bit more than before. Universities are a different social landscape than a mine or a factory for a reason - they are marginally effective at what they do. I guess that kind of corresponds with the options to 'socialize and function in a diverse society' and 'think critically'. It should only be 'think slightly more critically than before' though.

The training it provides for actual careers is limited in most fields, especially when you compare it to the type of training offered in trade schools, which is drastically more effective and practical even though they bring in less than Universities in revenue.

I really don't think it has to do with signaling anything to employers. Although Universities have adapted to new forms of employment, they don't revolve around them. This is obvious, since they are not entirely effective in training new employees. Initially, universities were developed by very idealistic intellectuals who wanted to do crazy things like rid society of all ignorance, inspire everyone to be philosophers and poets and all that junk. Pretty much around the same ideals as Ancient Greek or Roman schools of thought and discourse.

Archon_Wing

07-13-2007, 11:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I voted other and you can find why here:

http://img.youtube.com/vi/Q_DRw1Ajr4o/default.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_DRw1Ajr4o

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh wow... That was well said.

Duke

07-13-2007, 11:56 PM

Neilsio:

Despite the fact that I think much of what you say (not pertaining to this video, mainly the other political and conspiracy stuff) is ridiculous, I think that you're a quality person. Your videos speak well of you.

m_the0ry

07-14-2007, 02:19 AM

Higher education's purpose is to realize the goals of the society and the individual. The balance is determined by culture and government.

Higher education turns us into machines without free will? Oh please. That argument can be paralleled for everything from capitalism to social norms.

Duke

07-14-2007, 04:37 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I went with the necessary skills. I was surprised at how small of a minority I was in.

Thinking critically may happen to be one of those skills, yes. But the whole socialization, diversity, and rubberstamping thing explains a whole lot about what is wrong with how our universities work. Having spent most of my adult life at a university (state university with more or less open enrollment), can tell you about 2/3 of those who enroll have no business whatsoever being here, and something around 1/3 of those who get given the degrees STILL do did not get anything out of the experience but a piece of paper. These people NEED to be kicked to the curb, not babied along until they graduate, if degrees are going to mean anything at all.

Not that it'll ever happen. But yes, I'd like to see the university system shrink to half its current size, with much more severe enrollment standards imposed.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's just the semi-privatization of high school, and a lack of comprehension that many "college degree" type jobs are really nothing more than the new versions of factory jobs 10-20 years ago.

Your typical computer programmer doesn't need to know much of anything to be effective, just enough to get by and work hard. But since it involves a computer society still thinks that it's something more than a skilled trade. That's bunk. The factory jobs just moved and got a little cleaner.

This is not to say that certain types of programming and problem solving aren't difficult or demanding of creativity and intelligence, but the average guy writing code isn't that at all.

I'm hoping for the day when the university system goes old-school and turns into a bunch of people who go somewhere to study some stuff that they're interested in and do research, instead of a well-rounded attempt at High School version 2.0.

Taraz

07-15-2007, 02:57 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I voted other and you can find why here:

http://img.youtube.com/vi/Q_DRw1Ajr4o/default.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_DRw1Ajr4o

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh wow... That was well said.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with much of what you said in this video. Although I can't help but feel sad that you have never had a quality teacher who pushed you to think outside the box and to strive past your potential. I grant that they are few and far between. The purpose of education to me is empowerment to think for yourself and evaluate what comes your way. Unfortunately there is a lot of bullsh*t that we all have to live with.

Nielsio

07-15-2007, 03:19 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Although I can't help but feel sad that you have never had a quality teacher who pushed you to think outside the box and to strive past your potential.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lol, ofcourse I had those. But totally outside formal education ofcourse.

Taraz

07-15-2007, 03:33 AM

Philo

07-15-2007, 12:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I was discussing affirmative action programs recently and this issue seems extremely important when we are talking about who to admit to selective universities.

What is the primary goal when we send young students to get a university education?

[/ QUOTE ]

Who is "we"? I would think the primary goal of someone seeking a college education would be defined by the person seeking the education, not someone else. What that goal is will naturally vary from person to person.

Philo

07-15-2007, 12:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Although I can't help but feel sad that you have never had a quality teacher who pushed you to think outside the box and to strive past your potential.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lol, ofcourse I had those. But totally outside formal education ofcourse.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not necessarily. I chose to go to a college (Hampshire College in Amherst, MA) that is non-traditional and that encourages students to think outside the box. The college motto is "Non Satis Scire," or "To know is not enough."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hampshire_College

Hampshire does not emphasize the mere accumulation of knowledge, but encourages students to take a very active role in their education, and to think creatively, independently, and critically. Every teacher I had at Hampshire shared those pedagogical ideals.

Nielsio

07-15-2007, 12:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Although I can't help but feel sad that you have never had a quality teacher who pushed you to think outside the box and to strive past your potential.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lol, ofcourse I had those. But totally outside formal education ofcourse.

[/ QUOTE ]

I meant within the formal education system. I was fortunate to have several I suppose.

[/ QUOTE ]

What's your position on the two biggies: religion and the state.

Taraz

07-15-2007, 03:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

What is the primary goal when we send young students to get a university education?

[/ QUOTE ]

Who is "we"? I would think the primary goal of someone seeking a college education would be defined by the person seeking the education, not someone else. What that goal is will naturally vary from person to person.

[/ QUOTE ]

I mean what is the purpose for having the university system in general. I agree that people's goals for education vary, but what is the purpose behind a public university?

Taraz

07-15-2007, 03:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Although I can't help but feel sad that you have never had a quality teacher who pushed you to think outside the box and to strive past your potential.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lol, ofcourse I had those. But totally outside formal education ofcourse.

[/ QUOTE ]

I meant within the formal education system. I was fortunate to have several I suppose.

[/ QUOTE ]

What's your position on the two biggies: religion and the state.

[/ QUOTE ]

Religion - I'm atheist/agnostic, but I don't believe that we should be seeking the abolition of religion. It is important to allow religion to be open to criticism and revision. While I find it alarming that fundamentalism is so popular right now, I don't believe that it necessarily stems from the idea of religion itself.

The State - I believe the state provides some necessary services to society. Unfortunately governments are extremely susceptible to corruption and inefficiency. I think it's a necessary evil however.

Nielsio

07-15-2007, 04:21 PM

So you believe literal theism is total nonsense (or may I say: borderline brainwashing), yet you say the institution of religion, which is built on this nonsense, is perfectly fine?

What is a necessary evil? Is that some sort of doublespeak? Either something is good or something is evil. If something is necessary, then it's good. If something is evil, then it can't be necessary.

Also: how do you define corruption?

Taraz

07-15-2007, 04:52 PM

These questions are all worthy of their own separate threads, but here are some short answers.

[ QUOTE ]
So you believe literal theism is total nonsense (or may I say: borderline brainwashing), yet you say the institution of religion, which is built on this nonsense, is perfectly fine?

[/ QUOTE ]

"Literal theism" is a very small part of religion and is truthfully a very new phenomenon. If you are speaking about Christianity, the narrow literalism that we see today has it's roots in the late 1800s. I think it's very important to see the distinction between fundamentalism and religion. I realize that one needs a very sophisticated and educated view of religion to understand this, but it just simply isn't true that religion necessitates believing in supernatural 'nonsense'. Literal theism != religion.

[ QUOTE ]

What is a necessary evil? Is that some sort of doublespeak? Either something is good or something is evil. If something is necessary, then it's good. If something is evil, then it can't be necessary.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was implying that I believe the state solution to be better than the alternatives, but by no means perfect. I believe that their are severe problems with our system, with an AC system, socialism, communism, etc. Unfortunately we have no choice but to choose one of these.

Also I don't really believe that things are inherently good or evil. I guess I'm sympathetic to relativism.

[ QUOTE ]

Also: how do you define corruption?

[/ QUOTE ]

Corruption in a political system is when individuals in power seek illegitimate personal gain by abusing the system. Unfortunately corruption can take place in any system in which there isn't perfect information (which is all of them).

Nielsio

07-15-2007, 07:56 PM

Theism means believing in a non-metaphorical 'god', or anything 'supernatural'. To be really specific, it means people proclaiming their belief in things that they cannot define.

You yourself do not hold such religious beliefs, and therefore you don't call yourself a theist.

Now, my question is: do you think that it's bad to treat people in a way that results in them having religious beliefs. An example of such would be a parent telling their children a mythological story, and then expecting them to state that they believe it. The mythological stories are presented as historical fact; even though the stories contain loads of mythological symbols and to any sane mind would clearly be identified as metaphor and not fact (god created the earth in seven... etc, etc).

What problems do you see with an 'AC system'? Anarchism means nothing more than the idea that people should act on a voluntary basis and not on a coercive basis. Do you see any problems with that? And if so, why. Anarchocapitalism has a little added idea on top of that that we expect voluntary solutions to arise for arbitration and security. But it's doesn't design anything; it's merely a prediction.

Taraz

07-19-2007, 03:17 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Theism means believing in a non-metaphorical 'god', or anything 'supernatural'. To be really specific, it means people proclaiming their belief in things that they cannot define.

You yourself do not hold such religious beliefs, and therefore you don't call yourself a theist.

Now, my question is: do you think that it's bad to treat people in a way that results in them having religious beliefs. An example of such would be a parent telling their children a mythological story, and then expecting them to state that they believe it. The mythological stories are presented as historical fact; even though the stories contain loads of mythological symbols and to any sane mind would clearly be identified as metaphor and not fact (god created the earth in seven... etc, etc).

What problems do you see with an 'AC system'? Anarchism means nothing more than the idea that people should act on a voluntary basis and not on a coercive basis. Do you see any problems with that? And if so, why. Anarchocapitalism has a little added idea on top of that that we expect voluntary solutions to arise for arbitration and security. But it's doesn't design anything; it's merely a prediction.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know if you realized it, but I PMed you about this a while ago.

UptownExpress

07-19-2007, 04:47 AM

i used to think college was a huge waste of time. but a year after i got my degree i don't think it's so bad.

It gets kids out of the house, it's fun, it can be tough, it's just life, but a little more like life in a camp or something.

I think it's good to have a short intro to life before u get all up in it. I don't think it's completely necessary. But I don't think it's necessarily bad.

Nielsio

07-19-2007, 06:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Theism means believing in a non-metaphorical 'god', or anything 'supernatural'. To be really specific, it means people proclaiming their belief in things that they cannot define.

You yourself do not hold such religious beliefs, and therefore you don't call yourself a theist.

Now, my question is: do you think that it's bad to treat people in a way that results in them having religious beliefs. An example of such would be a parent telling their children a mythological story, and then expecting them to state that they believe it. The mythological stories are presented as historical fact; even though the stories contain loads of mythological symbols and to any sane mind would clearly be identified as metaphor and not fact (god created the earth in seven... etc, etc).

What problems do you see with an 'AC system'? Anarchism means nothing more than the idea that people should act on a voluntary basis and not on a coercive basis. Do you see any problems with that? And if so, why. Anarchocapitalism has a little added idea on top of that that we expect voluntary solutions to arise for arbitration and security. But it's doesn't design anything; it's merely a prediction.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know if you realized it, but I PMed you about this a while ago.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I saw it. I'll try to respond today.

tolbiny

07-19-2007, 12:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
There is demand for universities, both on the student side and the professor side

[/ QUOTE ]

The demand for universities is heavily inflated via government subsidies (state schools, exceeding cheap loans, ect).

ilya

07-20-2007, 01:35 AM

Taraz are you looking for a normative or a descriptive answer/discussion?

GoodCallYouWin

07-20-2007, 01:49 AM

"
It gets kids out of the house, it's fun, it can be tough, it's just life, but a little more like life in a camp or something.
"

Gee I'm so happy I could pay thousands of dollars in taxes for you to have a fun little summer camp.

Taraz

07-20-2007, 03:36 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Taraz are you looking for a normative or a descriptive answer/discussion?

[/ QUOTE ]

I was going for normative.

Basically my thinking was that if the reason we have a university system is for the benefit of the employer, employers should pay for it. If it's for the benefit of society as a whole we should be clear what we are going for and what the best way to achieve that is.

As it stands, it seems like many people have many different conceptions of what a university education should entail. I guess that's fine and everyone should be able to choose what they want out of higher education. But it seems like we should decide why we have public universities and discuss who we want to let in and why.

flipdeadshot22

07-20-2007, 05:09 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Taraz are you looking for a normative or a descriptive answer/discussion?

[/ QUOTE ]

I was going for normative.

Basically my thinking was that if the reason we have a university system is for the benefit of the employer, employers should pay for it. If it's for the benefit of society as a whole we should be clear what we are going for and what the best way to achieve that is.

As it stands, it seems like many people have many different conceptions of what a university education should entail. I guess that's fine and everyone should be able to choose what they want out of higher education. But it seems like we should decide why we have public universities and discuss who we want to let in and why.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is an excellent point Taraz, and one that a lot of us; as university students never really get around to thinking about. I've often questioned the utility of my degree in physics (especially now, during the time I've gotten a chance to try finding a job that fits my major as well as my expectations in what i should be doing with my life.)