25nl A-high flop heads up with weak kicker (A9o)

[yntm3]

Ultimate Bet - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.10/$0.25 Blinds - 5 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh))

SB: $29.36
BB: $10.31
UTG: $11.39
CO: $13.33
Hero (BTN): $26.47

Reads: <font color="blue">Villain is 75/7/1 over 30 hands.

I decide to raise the limpers with A9 on the button and we see a flop heads up when the SB just calls pre-flop.</font>

Preflop: Hero is dealt A/images/graemlins/spade.gif 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif (5 Players)
UTG calls $0.25, CO calls $0.25, <font color="red">Hero raises to $1.35</font>, SB calls $1.25, 3 folds

Flop: ($3.45) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif A/images/graemlins/club.gif J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 Players)
<font color="red">SB bets $3.45</font>, hero?

What is the best move here?

[Lego05]

I'd call but be ready to fold on turn if he continues with aggressive betting.

[UFGatorGuy]

I'm a nit but I'd fold

[yntm3]

Anyone like a re-raise NOW to figure out where we are at?

[KEW]

I can't believe I am going to say this...

BUT against this type of loose passive villain I like a MIN RAISE to maintain control of the pot and allow me to MOST LIKELY check behind on the turn(thus controlling the size of the pot) and re-eval the river action..I like the min raise(or slightly over) because this villain is very unlikely to shove a draw on us or shove with a hand that we beat..

[yntm3]

[ QUOTE ]
I can't believe I am going to say this...

BUT against this type of loose passive villain I like a MIN RAISE to maintain control of the pot and allow me to MOST LIKELY check behind on the turn(thus controlling the size of the pot) and re-eval the river action..I like the min raise(or slightly over) because this villain is very unlikely to shove a draw on us or shove with a hand that we beat..

[/ QUOTE ]

I actually raised to $9. Does this qualify? /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

I wonder what everyone else thinks about this.

[Lego05]

I dislike it. Your hand is now a bluff....I think you have to think that he has a draw a large portion of the time for a raise to be good here.

I much prefer calling and reevaluating turn.

[DaycareInferno]

i'd personally just dump it on the flop. everything you know about him so far indicates that he's a passive player. passive players aren't usually going to 3bet you pf with a better ace, and usually aren't going to make a pot sized bet into you with a worse ace. the good news is that as many hands as he plays, you'll have better info on him pretty quickly.

[terencetsao]

also a passive player is unlikey to bet out with a draw too.. but over 30 hands we can not conclude what kind of player he is.
i think folding and calling are both close decisions, i tend to like calling more in this situation

[KEW]

[ QUOTE ]
I dislike it. Your hand is now a bluff....I think you have to think that he has a draw a large portion of the time for a raise to be good here.

I much prefer calling and reevaluating turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Raising does not turn our hand into a bluff..This villain will call our raise with draws, weaker Aces and may be even a J(or other under pair)..A raise on the flop will likely be cheaper then calling a larger bet on the turn from a villain that appears to like to mash the pot button...I am using a small raise for value,pot control and of course info..A flop raise will also if we choose often allow us to showdown our hand(which we want to do)without putting any more money into the pot...A passive villain will fear we either have a set or a bigger Ace then he has and go into check call mode..

What are you going to do on the turn when villain leads again?????

[Lego05]

[ QUOTE ]


What are you going to do on the turn when villain leads again?????

[/ QUOTE ]

Depends how much he leads for. Either call or fold.

[terencetsao]

KEW is right, a raise is definetly better than call and wait for the turn because villan is passive.

so its more like..
fold &gt; raise &gt; call

[KEW]

[ QUOTE ]
i'd personally just dump it on the flop. everything you know about him so far indicates that he's a passive player. passive players aren't usually going to 3bet you pf with a better ace, and usually aren't going to make a pot sized bet into you with a worse ace. the good news is that as many hands as he plays, you'll have better info on him pretty quickly.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can not see folding on the flop vs this villain..He is almost calling with ATC PF...I do not think this villain sees beyond his 2 cards..I doubt he views leading as strong play...His post flop aggression is 1 and that not all that passive post flop for a 75% PF VP$IP also over such a small sample the post flop AF is much less reliable(indicative) then the pre-flop number..

PS my jury is still out on calling vs raising..

[KEW]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


What are you going to do on the turn when villain leads again?????

[/ QUOTE ]

Depends how much he leads for. Either call or fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

VS this villain could you make this fold with confidence???

If your plan is to fold to a 3/4 to full pot bet on the turn would in not be better to make a small raise and likely see 2 cards and make it to the river???

[KEW]

[ QUOTE ]
KEW is right, a raise is definetly better than call and wait for the turn because villan is passive.

so its more like..
fold &gt; raise &gt; call

[/ QUOTE ]

Please elaborate on how you could fold the flop vs this villain????

[Lego05]

IMO hero is behind nearly 100% of the time if villian puts out a turn bet that doesn't look like a block. (I think a lot of villians like this will make a small turn bet with something like A4 or a flush draw or even check it.)

If we raise flop the only benefit it could be is if we're charging a draw as I believe there is a very good chance it will fold out all hands that we are beating. But I'd rather just call and risk giving a draw a free card because it is likely we are behind.

[terencetsao]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
KEW is right, a raise is definetly better than call and wait for the turn because villan is passive.

so its more like..
fold &gt; raise &gt; call

[/ QUOTE ]

Please elaborate on how you could fold the flop vs this villain????

[/ QUOTE ]

because his aggression factor is 1, so he is a passive player.
all of a sudden a passive player donk a pot size bet to you, doesnt that mean a lot of strength?
sorry if i am wrong, i have trouble reading stats for 6max table

[KEW]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
KEW is right, a raise is definetly better than call and wait for the turn because villan is passive.

so its more like..
fold &gt; raise &gt; call

[/ QUOTE ]

Please elaborate on how you could fold the flop vs this villain????

[/ QUOTE ]

because his aggression factor is 1, so he is a passive player.
all of a sudden a passive player donk a pot size bet to you, doesnt that mean a lot of strength?
sorry if i am wrong, i have trouble reading stats for 6max table

[/ QUOTE ]

No sorrys you are not wrong...We are here to learn that why I like to discuss ALL actions and see what other are thinking...

Against some villain with that aggro factor I agree it would clearly be a fold..But we only have 30 on this villain and IMO the aggro factor is the least reliable stat over that sample size..

VS a villain with a 75/7 PF numbers I do not give him credit for anything beyond him knowing what his 2 cards are until proven other wise...Against a solid player a lead here is a very strong move against a weak player it could be a hopeless bluff with seven deuce because he saw it on TV...

My goal in this hand is to get to showdown as cheaply as possible and to get some value out of draw and weaker hands..Lego make some good points on calling&gt;raising...My standard play here had been to call...It's just I found myself being faced with a tough decision on the turn and feeling very weak and cheap when I folded to a turn bet...

[Lego05]

I'd also just like to point that I agree that over just 30 hands AF can't be trusted too much although its still useful. And also to point out that this guy has played 75% of his hands and has raised just as often as he has called post-flop. Not sayigng that his AF of 1 is saying he's an aggressive player, but it is much more aggressive than someone who's 26/11/1.

[yntm3]

Nice discussion everyone. Needless to say, I raised to $9 and he shoved so I had a fairly simple lay down. I can make this raise here, or call and spend the same amount of money calling a pot-sized bet on the turn so I like to find out where I am at now. I don't mind a call though and it might have been a better idea.