$50. Facing a potbet on turn with trip aces and a bad kicker

[Ncoe]

No reads. Should I continue with this hand, and if so how?

Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.25/$0.50 Blinds - 5 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh))

SB: $78.10
BB: $30.10
UTG: $29.35
CO: $38.75
Hero (BTN): $50.00

Preflop: Hero is dealt 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (5 Players)
<font color="red">UTG raises to $1.50</font>, CO folds, Hero calls $1.50, SB folds, BB calls $1.00

Flop: ($4.75) J/images/graemlins/club.gif 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif A/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 Players)
BB checks, <font color="red">UTG bets $5.50</font>, Hero calls $5.50, BB folds

Turn: ($15.75) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 Players)
<font color="red">UTG bets $10.00</font>, Hero ???

[Warteen]

Unless you have a good read on the opponent, you probably have to let this go. Villain has to at least suspect you have an ace here, and it's not slowing him down a bit. Since you didn't raise on the flop for information (which I might advocate there), and your hand hasn't improved against any hand you were behind before, I think it's a fold. Against certain villains you're definitely calling, though.

Also, this is nitpicky, but you're not facing a potbet on the turn.

[relativity_x]

First, you shouldn't call raises with ace-rag.

Secondly, your hand is under-represented, so I'd push his turn bet for a few reasons.

1) If we assume villain is a good 50 NL player, he knows this is a good turn to double barrel because he might get you to drop a flush draw.
2) He could be doing this with qq/kk/qj/jt/kj, or he could be semi-bluffing with a flush draw.

by pushing this turn, he can think you're pushing a flush draw and call with qq/kk/jx or call with his flush draw. The last thing you want to do is see a heart on the river here, so let's take the pot down now with more than likely the best hand.

If he has a higher ace, it's a cooler. Also, if it's higher, we can still counterfeit him on the river.

[Ncoe]

Alright, thanks for the resonse.
So say I raise on the flop to like, $14-15. He calls and checks the turn. Do I bet it? If I do it'll be his stack.
And if I raise the flop and then check behind on the turn.. Am I calling a safe enough rivercard as he's betting ~$13 into ~35 or am I supposed to fold that?

[Heine]

I'd call the turn, and fold if bet to (unless the bet is less then 1/4 pot) on the river. I doubt we are getting triple barreled here with KK/QQ. If you catch a miracle 3 or the board pairs, go ahead and push it in.

[Warteen]

[ QUOTE ]
First, you shouldn't call raises with ace-rag.

Secondly, your hand is under-represented, so I'd push his turn bet for a few reasons.

1) If we assume villain is a good 50 NL player, he knows this is a good turn to double barrel because he might get you to drop a flush draw.
2) He could be doing this with qq/kk/qj/jt/kj, or he could be semi-bluffing with a flush draw.

by pushing this turn, he can think you're pushing a flush draw and call with qq/kk/jx or call with his flush draw. The last thing you want to do is see a heart on the river here, so let's take the pot down now with more than likely the best hand.

If he has a higher ace, it's a cooler. Also, if it's higher, we can still counterfeit him on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with a lot of what you've said here, particularly that a thinking player calls a turn push with KK/QQ/Jx.
Furthermore, it's not a cooler if the opponent has a higher ace, because that's what he probably has and it's a totally avoidable situation. If you get the money in there and the opponent calls, you've just stacked yourself.
Finally (and this is marginal), I'm okay with playing ace-rag suited for a raise in position against most opponents, for the two pair and flush possibilities... but only if I can get away from a hand like this.

OP, if you raise the flop for information (~2.5x his bet seems right) and Villain calls and checks the turn, I would definitely check behind for pot control (since we could easily still be behind). Then you can call a reasonable-sized bet on the river - this way you see a showdown without losing your whole stack. This is often my line with top pair-type hands.

[Triggerle]

His betting could be an Ace but it could be numerous other holdings as well as we didn't define our hand. Because he is short defining our hand on the flop is not really possible as we get committed quickly. I like it as played and push turn.

[ QUOTE ]
I'd call the turn, and fold if bet to (unless the bet is less then 1/4 pot) on the river. I doubt we are getting triple barreled here with KK/QQ. If you catch a miracle 3 or the board pairs, go ahead and push it in.

[/ QUOTE ]
Villian has only like $12 more. if we call here we must felt this.

[Mingdu]

We are so far ahead of his range it isn't even funny ... get it in there. If he has a bigger ace, so be it.

We are ahead more often than not in this spot

[Triggerle]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
First, you shouldn't call raises with ace-rag.

Secondly, your hand is under-represented, so I'd push his turn bet for a few reasons.

1) If we assume villain is a good 50 NL player, he knows this is a good turn to double barrel because he might get you to drop a flush draw.
2) He could be doing this with qq/kk/qj/jt/kj, or he could be semi-bluffing with a flush draw.

by pushing this turn, he can think you're pushing a flush draw and call with qq/kk/jx or call with his flush draw. The last thing you want to do is see a heart on the river here, so let's take the pot down now with more than likely the best hand.

If he has a higher ace, it's a cooler. Also, if it's higher, we can still counterfeit him on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with a lot of what you've said here, particularly that a thinking player calls a turn push with KK/QQ/Jx.
Furthermore, it's not a cooler if the opponent has a higher ace, because that's what he probably has and it's a totally avoidable situation. If you get the money in there and the opponent calls, you've just stacked yourself.
Finally (and this is marginal), I'm okay with playing ace-rag suited for a raise in position against most opponents, for the two pair and flush possibilities... but only if I can get away from a hand like this.

OP, if you raise the flop for information (~2.5x his bet seems right) and Villain calls and checks the turn, I would definitely check behind for pot control (since we could easily still be behind). Then you can call a reasonable-sized bet on the river - this way you see a showdown without losing your whole stack. This is often my line with top pair-type hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

A lot of what you say is probably correct for full stacks. In this case, however, he will call a push with a lot of hands. Also, giving him credit for only an ace is too narrow given our passive play.

[Warteen]

[ QUOTE ]

A lot of what you say is probably correct for full stacks. In this case, however, he will call a push with a lot of hands. Also, giving him credit for only an ace is too narrow given our passive play.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a good point, and I'll admit I hadn't paid enough attention to stack sizes when I wrote my previous posts. However, I still don't think a smart opponent (stack size notwithstanding as an indicator of brainpower) gets the money in with KK on an A-high board when his opponent is showing aggression. Maybe I give them too much credit.

[relativity_x]

<font color="red"> I have quite a few with you too sir.</font>

[ QUOTE ]
I disagree with a lot of what you've said here, particularly that a thinking player calls a turn push with KK/QQ/Jx.

[/ QUOTE ]

<font color="blue"> Sure they will, they will use the logic "well there's two aces out and he's probably pushing the flush draw."

I've seen this happen tons of times.
</font>
[ QUOTE ]
Furthermore, it's not a cooler if the opponent has a higher ace, because that's what he probably has and it's a totally avoidable situation. If you get the money in there and the opponent calls, you've just stacked yourself.
Finally (and this is marginal), I'm okay with playing ace-rag suited for a raise in position against most opponents, for the two pair and flush possibilities... but only if I can get away from a hand like this.


[/ QUOTE ]
<font color="blue">
I personally don't like the call with ace-rag, but that's just me. Either way, We can't do anything about that now.

The fact of the matter is that we have trips and probably the best hand here. If he's got an ace, we get what we deserved by calling a raise with ace-rag in the first place. You can't call with ace-rag and then play scared when you hit trips.

Also, we can't always give utg an AK/AQ just because he raised utg. It's possible that he has other holdings, specifically the ones I mentioned in my OP.
</font>
[ QUOTE ]
OP, if you raise the flop for information (~2.5x his bet seems right) and Villain calls and checks the turn, I would definitely check behind for pot control (since we could easily still be behind). Then you can call a reasonable-sized bet on the river - this way you see a showdown without losing your whole stack. This is often my line with top pair-type hands.

[/ QUOTE ]
<font color="blue">
raising his flop bet is bad imo because you're bloating the pot without getting much information --- meaning he'll call you with about everything he bets, so I believe the flop call is best for pot control.

I believe we can call on the turn too, but there's a lot of cards we don't want to see on the river. Therefore, I believe we get the best value out of this hand by pushing all in over his bet on the turn. </font>

[sightless]

[ QUOTE ]
First, you shouldn't call raises with ace-rag.

Secondly, your hand is under-represented, so I'd push his turn bet for a few reasons.

1) If we assume villain is a good 50 NL player, he knows this is a good turn to double barrel because he might get you to drop a flush draw.
2) He could be doing this with qq/kk/qj/jt/kj, or he could be semi-bluffing with a flush draw.

by pushing this turn, he can think you're pushing a flush draw and call with qq/kk/jx or call with his flush draw. The last thing you want to do is see a heart on the river here, so let's take the pot down now with more than likely the best hand.

If he has a higher ace, it's a cooler. Also, if it's higher, we can still counterfeit him on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]


you are insane

EVEN IF YOU think we are ahead you are turnign the hand into a bluff, an ACE is a big part of this gusy range here and by pushing he will call us only those times when he has it

[You're No Daisy]

I'm can only assume that villain has JJ because he surely isn't scared of either Ace! Don't call EP raises on the Button with Ace-rag.

AC

[relativity_x]

[ QUOTE ]
gets the money in with KK on an A-high board when his opponent is showing aggression. Maybe I give them too much credit.


[/ QUOTE ]

<font color="blue"> We haven't shown aggression once so far. We've called/called.

That’s the beauty of our hand. It’s way under-represented. </font>

[Warteen]

Look out, he's changing the font color... must mean he's <font color="red">serious</font>.

[ QUOTE ]
<font color="blue"> Sure they will, they will use the logic "well there's two aces out and he's probably pushing the flush draw."

I've seen this happen tons of times.
</font>

[/ QUOTE ]

On the flop, yes. Good players don't usually push flush draws on the turn, and thinking players have to assume their opponents are good unless given a reason to think otherwise. If Villain is an idiot he calls with Jx-KK here... I'm operating under the assumption that he is not.

[ QUOTE ]

<font color="blue">
I personally don't like the call with ace-rag, but that's just me. Either way, We can't do anything about that now.

The fact of the matter is that we have trips and probably the best hand here. If he's got an ace, we get what we deserved by calling a raise with ace-rag in the first place. You can't call with ace-rag and then play scared when you hit trips.
</font>

[/ QUOTE ]

I said in my post that yes, you can, if the situation is right. The value of ace-rag suited is in the flush possibilities, straight possibilities, and two-pair possibilities. Any one of these could stack a person holding an overpair or TPTK. You have to play your ace very cautiously with these holdings, or you'll go broke on hands like this one.

[ QUOTE ]
<font color="blue">
raising his flop bet is bad imo because you're bloating the pot without getting much information --- meaning he'll call you with about everything he bets, so I believe the flop call is best for pot control.

I believe we can call on the turn too, but there's a lot of cards we don't want to see on the river. Therefore, I believe we get the best value out of this hand by pushing all in over his bet on the turn. </font>

[/ QUOTE ]

A raise on the flop does not bloat the pot much immediately. That's why you should get your information while the price is cheap. And I don't believe the villain calls with everything he bets, either. Ever heard of a c-bet?
And I don't see how there are many scare cards on the river. A flush draw makes up a pretty small part of the villain's range here. If you decide to get the money in anyway, I prefer to just call the turn and raise/bet the river. With his stack, he probably wouldn't fold a flush draw on the turn anyway. Let the villain hang himself on his own bets, for the times you have him beat. He bets with a much bigger range than he calls with.

Anyhoo, I'm done arguing. This is my take on the hand, and why.

[resboard]

grunch: I think we avoid the whole situation by folding preflop. certainly if you are scared to bet into him, or reaise him on the flop, you should also quit there.

[relativity_x]

<font color="pink">No, I just use different colors because I think they're pretty. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif </font>

[ QUOTE ]
A raise on the flop does not bloat the pot much immediately. That's why you should get your information while the price is cheap. And I don't believe the villain calls with everything he bets, either. Ever heard of a c-bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

no, can you explain what a cbet is? Either way, raise here is bad. You need to utlize pot control here because we can't handle much heat.

[ QUOTE ]
With his stack, he probably wouldn't fold a flush draw on the turn anyway. Let the villain hang himself on his own bets, for the times you have him beat. He bets with a much bigger range than he calls with.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which is exactly why getting the money on the turn is the best strategy. If he misses the flush draw, he doesn't put it in. If the flush does come, we've got a decision to make. Whynot make this easy on ourselves, get the money in while we're most likely ahead instead of letting the villain play it perfectly?

[ssdex]

[ QUOTE ]


If he has a higher ace, it's a cooler. Also, if it's higher, we can still counterfeit him on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I lol'd at this

This is an easy fold imo, fwiw I either raise flop or fold flop, I think a call is bad, you have absolutey no idea what utg has

[relativity_x]

I don't see why you're laughing at it? I said to fold this preflop.

If you're going to call with A-rag preflop, how can you fold trips?

We need bozzer to do the combo math of him having an ace here.

[ssdex]

your calling with ace rag for flushes and st8's or trip 3's, not trip aces........ if you play hands like this in position, which I do a ton, you have to have the discipline to fold in spots like this.... thats why calling A rag in position is a losing proposition for most micro players. omg i have trip aces i cant fold!

[relativity_x]

so you always give him credit for trip aces when you have aces? zOMG I have trip aces....he obviously has better trips.

[relativity_x]

[ QUOTE ]
if you call raises with hands like this in position against unknown villains, which I do a ton, you have a serious leak

[/ QUOTE ]

[DaycareInferno]

i think raising on the flop is a really bad idea. what good is "information" when all you're accomplishing in the process is allowing your opponent to make an easy perfect decision?

[Check_The_Nuts]

Ncoe, you played this hand poorly on every street. I wouldn't hvae called a pot-commiting bet on the flop ever. I wouldn't have called preflop versus a 30 dollar stack either.

This hand shows some very very glaring weakness and leaks in your game. You misplayed every street especially if you pushed turn. No offence, but I would move down to 25NL and see if you can beat the games there.

[ssdex]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if you call raises with hands like this in position against unknown villains, which I do a ton, you have a serious edge post flop b/c i dont stack off with A 3 with trip aces from an utg raiser

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

ps. this is AK way too much to find a shove, you have to c/r flop here or fold flop, those are the only two plays, if your calling flop and shoving turn, that is just lol.

[ssdex]

also zomg im a donkey for calling flop and hitting the card I think i should shove into a double barrel on, I mean who doesn't double barrel with Ak/Aq here if they are raising those hands utg, both of which are way more likely then KK QQ, I mean im not double barreling either of those two after i get called from button on the flop with an A out there.

[relativity_x]

JJ is the only hand I'd be worried about here.

[VPIP100]

[ QUOTE ]
your calling with ace rag for flushes and st8's or trip 3's, not trip aces........ if you play hands like this in position, which I do a ton, you have to have the discipline to fold in spots like this.... thats why calling A rag in position is a losing proposition for most micro players. omg i have trip aces i cant fold!

[/ QUOTE ]

This is so true.

Really, the turn doesnt change anything. You are either WA/WB. And to an UTG raise, who isbetting into 2 players you are always behind.

Flop is a clear fold, and folding/calling pre doesnt change much.

[VPIP100]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if you call raises with hands like this in position against unknown villains, which I do a ton, you have a serious leak

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Please dont give advice if its wrong.

Calling = folding, doesnt matter much. Just dont overplay weak aces.

[stompa]

[ QUOTE ]
so you always give him credit for trip aces when you have aces? zOMG I have trip aces....he obviously has better trips.

[/ QUOTE ]

The thing is that is range in this spot consist mostly of big Aces. We do not know his utg raising range but
He raised UTg, fired the flop and the turn.
Even with three aces out, they are still 15 AT+ combos (+3JJ) that crushes you out there, and only 12 combos of QQ and KK. So pushing hoping he has Queens or Kings and put you on a flush draw seems insane.
Sure he might double barrel with anything he raised with. The thing is that it is not the standard play for an unknow villain. Whereas 99% of villain will take that exact same line with the hand that have you beat you. I don't feel like doing the math right now but he will have to bluff a huge % of the time to make this anything but a fold. So without a read, you can muck that without second thought.
The thing is the ace on the turn did not improve your hand. You still beat and are crushed by the same hands.
The ace just changes his range, making it less likely that he has an ace and maybe, depending on the player, increases his bluffing range. Still, this is not enough to make it a push against anyone but a very aggro/laggy villian.
Fold preflop, fold flop, fold turn. (without reads)

[relativity_x]

how is calling raises with garbage against unkown players wrong?

[infinite_loop]

This is why you don't play A3 to a raise. Fold pre-flop.

[tarheeljks]

the combo math is not particularly relevant

[relativity_x]

you are 100% correct. The villain is too short to call this raise PF.

[stompa]

[ QUOTE ]
the combo math is not particularly relevant

[/ QUOTE ]
yep you're right
but you can use it to point out that it is wishful thinking to put the villian on KK, QQ

[tuuufts]

The advice given here from most of the posters is mind-blowingly terrible. I haven't been in micro stakes for quite some time, but a friend pointed out this thread to me and I feel compelled to comment.

First off, PF is an easy fold. Like others have already said. You play hands like A3s to open your range, make you unpredictable, and stack a huge hand by hitting a flush/2pair/trips when you're deep. Notice I didn't say "when you have full stacks." I'm not calling in this spot unless we're ~200bb deep. These hands are way too hard to play especially against a shortstacker and preflop is a HUGE error barring reads that indicate we should do the contrary.

Raising on the flop here is terrible. He folds better hands and calls with better ones. Unless the object of "raising for information" is to lose big pots and win small ones I don't see where it's ever correct.

[ QUOTE ]

On the flop, yes. Good players don't usually push flush draws on the turn, and thinking players have to assume their opponents are good unless given a reason to think otherwise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I honestly for the life of me cannot figure out what this means. Good players are good because they are unpredictable and because generalizations don't apply to them. And yes, they sometimes push draws on the turn. And assuming everybody is cts until proven otherwise is just retarded. Especially at micro stakes. Especially when the guy's a shortstacker.

ssdex, your posts are really quite inconsistent.

[ QUOTE ]
I lol'd at this

This is an easy fold imo, fwiw I either raise flop or fold flop, I think a call is bad, you have absolutey no idea what utg has

[/ QUOTE ]

If he could have anything, then folding trips here is pretty bad, no?

[ QUOTE ]
ps. this is AK way too much to find a shove, you have to c/r flop here or fold flop, those are the only two plays, if your calling flop and shoving turn, that is just lol.

[/ QUOTE ]

Raising or folding the flop is just lol. Calling flop and shoving turn is perfectly reasonable.

[ QUOTE ]
This is so true.

Really, the turn doesnt change anything. You are either WA/WB. And to an UTG raise, who isbetting into 2 players you are always behind.

Flop is a clear fold, and folding/calling pre doesnt change much.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, the turn does change something. It makes it less likely in villain's mind that we have an ace. Thus, he's more likely to double barrel with hands that do not beat an ace.

If you are going to call this preflop (which you shouldn't) you can't ever fold in this spot. Unknown micro stakes shorstackers are just too unpredictable and erratic to be making huge laydowns to. Calling the turn and calling the river or shoving over his bet on the turn are both acceptable lines, I'd recommend the former. If he has you beat then he has you beat and you learn not to play trash hands in spots like this. This situation is obviously much different if we have any stats/reads/idea of how villain plays.

[stompa]

I did not realize that vilain was so short, so yes you might as well call.
That being said it is not as clear cut as you made it to be, because microstakes shortstacker(50bb) are as not unpredictable as you think.
I don't know on fultilt, I play on everest(very juicy site) since I've started playing again this month,but the standard line for villain without an ace here is weakish flop bet(or even flop check), check turn. he would not be familiar with idea of double barreling this kind of board.
Given the line taken here, vilain has an ace &gt;90% and really it is not a big fold. therefore you need a read to call that(aggrovillain).
But The 50$ game on tilt plays probably better. On everest 10$ and 25$ you can easily muck the turn without read.
and fold preflop.

[Check_The_Nuts]

[ QUOTE ]
I did not realize that vilain was so short, so yes you might as well call.
That being said it is not as clear cut as you made it to be, because microstakes shortstacker(50bb) are as not unpredictable as you think.
I don't know on fultilt, I play on everest(very juicy site) since I've started playing again this month,but the standard line for villain without an ace here is weakish flop bet(or even flop check), check turn. he would not be familiar with idea of double barreling this kind of board.
Given the line taken here, vilain has an ace &gt;90% and really it is not a big fold. therefore you need a read to call that(aggrovillain).
But The 50$ game on tilt plays probably better. On everest 10$ and 25$ you can easily muck the turn without read.
and fold preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

if it plays better u should fold faster not call?!? Better=tighter=less bluffing=fold bigger hands. This thread makes my eyes bleed lol.

[stompa]

no Everest is worse= i'll call you with anything and bet only the nuts