Couldn't find this in the FAQ

[Jeffrey Dahmer]

I saw when to move up from 25NL, but I need to know what BR is good to move up from 10NL to 25NL. I buy-in for half of max (berate me if you want.) I have $150 on now after some withdrawals. Is $150 enough, what amount is? Thanks.
PS-I AM confident in my game, but it's more the monetary questions I need help with.

[Nogatsira]

Go for 20 full buy-ins.
NL10 = $200
NL25 = $500
NL50 = $1000

[simonpoker]

you BI for 12.5$ your BR should be 20xBI and this makes 250$.But thats if you are not willing to move down on levels.I think you can take a shor at 25 but drop if you reach ~20BI on NL10.

[ajmargarine]

Start buying in full and learn to play full stacked. If you are confident that you have a game, you should have an advantage over your opponents, and being full stacked you can take full advantage. You don't have enough now to move up.

[Jeffrey Dahmer]

So 20 BI's at the rate of $12.50 per? Or whatever amount I plan on buying in for regularly?

[Nogatsira]

Buy in full stacked. So for NL25 you need $500 (20 times $25)

[Jeffrey Dahmer]

[ QUOTE ]
Start buying in full and learn to play full stacked. If you are confident that you have a game, you should have an advantage over your opponents, and being full stacked you can take full advantage. You don't have enough now to move up.

[/ QUOTE ]

I always hear this, but why? On UB hardly anyone buys in for a full stack and I usually double up anyway. The most I ever missed out on was a couple bucks. The full stacks tend to be LAGs. Good way to lose a full BI. I don't really know. I'm so used to SnGs that some stuff I just don't get yet.

[Capitan23]

Personally, I think 250$ is a good bankroll to start 25NL. I don't recommend playing with less than 200$ in the bank.

[Capone]

I hope your joking about that...

Wait until you have $500. Even $700 would be good. (Im a bit of a bankroll nit).

$250 isnt enough imo.

[Heine]

I think bankroll requirements are a function of why you are playing at these lower levels.

If you are playing to learn poker, make some extra cash on the side, and for fun. I think that 10-15 buy-ins for 25NL. Provided you can comfortably reload at any time. On the other hand, if you aren't so fortunate, and a few hundred dollars does mean a lot to you, i recommend doing the 20 buyins per level.

Oh and buy in full. Its much more fun.

[Jeffrey Dahmer]

Thanks for all the advice. My problem (maybe a good one, IDK) is that I like to withdraw $50 or $100 rather often. Everytime I hit $200 I have taken at least $50 out. I don't know if I could wait till $500 to cahsout at all;)

[corsakh]

[ QUOTE ]
I always hear this, but why? On UB hardly anyone buys in for a full stack and I usually double up anyway. The most I ever missed out on was a couple bucks. The full stacks tend to be LAGs. Good way to lose a full BI. I don't really know. I'm so used to SnGs that some stuff I just don't get yet.

[/ QUOTE ]


Your hands strength grows exponentially from preflop to the river.
A players skill edge grows exponentially from preflop to the river.
Pot size grows exponentially from preflop to the river.

By playing half a BI you limit yourself to flop and turn play. The river is a freeroll for your opponents.

ps The good side - you cant be bluffed on the turn /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Jeffrey Dahmer]

[ QUOTE ]
I think bankroll requirements are a function of why you are playing at these lower levels.

If you are playing to learn poker, make some extra cash on the side, and for fun. I think that 10-15 buy-ins for 25NL. Provided you can comfortably reload at any time. On the other hand, if you aren't so fortunate, and a few hundred dollars does mean a lot to you, i recommend doing the 20 buyins per level.

Oh and buy in full. Its much more fun.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have a job for a few days a week, but make more money playing poker. Not just for fun. I want to EVENTUALLY be playing 10/20, I don't have any interest in making tiny profits and re-loading. I have NEVER reloaded and don't plan on it.

[Jeffrey Dahmer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I always hear this, but why? On UB hardly anyone buys in for a full stack and I usually double up anyway. The most I ever missed out on was a couple bucks. The full stacks tend to be LAGs. Good way to lose a full BI. I don't really know. I'm so used to SnGs that some stuff I just don't get yet.

[/ QUOTE ]


Your hands strength grows exponentially from preflop to the river.
A players skill edge grows exponentially from preflop to the river.
Pot size grows exponentially from preflop to the river.

By playing half a BI you limit yourself to flop and turn play. The river is a freeroll for your opponents.

ps The good side - you cant be bluffed on the turn /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I have no idea what you mean. I play the river just like I would if I had $1000 instead of $5. I don't bluff much if that's what you are getting at. Bluffing is a waste at low levels.

[corsakh]

You don't have money on the river. How can you play it, it plays itself /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[bozzer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think bankroll requirements are a function of why you are playing at these lower levels.

If you are playing to learn poker, make some extra cash on the side, and for fun. I think that 10-15 buy-ins for 25NL. Provided you can comfortably reload at any time. On the other hand, if you aren't so fortunate, and a few hundred dollars does mean a lot to you, i recommend doing the 20 buyins per level.

Oh and buy in full. Its much more fun.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm in high school, I have a job for a few days a week, but make more money playing poker. Not just for fun. I want to EVENTUALLY be playing 10/20, I don't have any interest in making tiny profits and re-loading. I have NEVER reloaded and don't plan on it.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, don't withdraw then. you can go through the levels very quickly if you are disciplined and run good, so it will play off in a few months.

full stacked is a lot more fun! you won't get much from this forum if you only play with 50bbs.

[Quester]

[ QUOTE ]
I have no idea what you mean. I play the river just like I would if I had $1000 instead of $5. I don't bluff much if that's what you are getting at. Bluffing is a waste at low levels.

[/ QUOTE ]

No offense, but most of your posts in this thread demonstrate a lack of understanding of very fundamental NL concepts.

If you play a river the same with $1k as you do with $5, you are going to be a long-term loser.

If you buy in for 1/2 the max, you are limiting your abilities and value. You're right that very often the big stacks at the table will be LAGs. This is fantastic. At least it would be if you bought in full because it's easy to make money off of LAGs.

If you only have $150, even if you only buy in at 25NL with $12.5, you're still seriously underrolled. Your risk of ruin is way too high (especially, again, because it seems you don't understand basic NL concepts).

You have a lot of changes to make if you intend to take poker seriously or make any sort of money in the long term.

[Capone]

wait until you have $500.

And don't be so complacient/confident with your skills always look to learn and improve. Dont let ego ruin your game.

[samwallistea]

If you keep withdrawing when you hit $200 you might aswell stick at 10NL, if you want to build a bankroll then you can take shots at 25NL to build a roll that can then withstand the variance at that level. I started taking shots at 25NL when I had about 175 and was fortunate to avoid any bad runs and got upto 300 (which is an adequate bankroll to play 25NL for me). If you want to progress up the levels stop withdrawing money, or at least withdraw less and less frequently.

[ama0330]

I recommend having 20 buyins where 1 buyin is 5% of the max buyin. So for 25nl, that would be $1.25 x 20, which = $25. When I play I usually shove my $1.25 preflop, but sometimes check to the river, then shove. Why bother with postflop when you can be sure you have the best hand, THEN get your money in?

[Capone]

[ QUOTE ]
I recommend having 20 buyins where 1 buyin is 5% of the max buyin. So for 25nl, that would be $1.25 x 20, which = $25. When I play I usually shove my $1.25 preflop, but sometimes check to the river, then shove. Why bother with postflop when you can be sure you have the best hand, THEN get your money in?

[/ QUOTE ]

LMAO waoh i just choked i laughed so hard

[Sweir]

[ QUOTE ]
I recommend having 20 buyins where 1 buyin is 5% of the max buyin. So for 25nl, that would be $1.25 x 20, which = $25. When I play I usually shove my $1.25 preflop, but sometimes check to the river, then shove. Why bother with postflop when you can be sure you have the best hand, THEN get your money in?

[/ QUOTE ]

QFMFT

[Peter Harris]

[ QUOTE ]
The full stacks tend to be LAGs. Good way to lose a full BI.

[/ QUOTE ]

losing thinking leads to losing play.

[Gelford]

[ QUOTE ]
So 20 BI's at the rate of $12.50 per? Or whatever amount I plan on buying in for regularly?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you insist on buyin in half, then yes /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Jeffrey Dahmer]

I'm gonna try 5-tabling 10NL with full buy-ins on all 5 tables. Anyone who says I don't understand what YOU call cocepts in poker can go to hell. No one plays the same.

[Capone]

Just play ABC at .5/.10 and you will show a profit.

[Capone]

and ftmfw $500 for 25NL

[Sweir]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm gonna try 5-tabling 10NL with full buy-ins on all 5 tables. Anyone who says I don't understand what YOU call cocepts in poker can go to hell.<font color="blue"> rofl </font>
No one plays the same. <font color="blue"> I wonder why.... </font>

[/ QUOTE ]

[mrjetguy]

Learn the game properly by playing a fullstack. Once you do you will be better able to decide whether shortstacking is the correct decision for you. Also, it is easier to switch to a shortstack than the other way around.

I didn't read all of the responses but I think you should know that there is nothing wrong with taking some shots at $25 NL. If you are decent you should have a big edge. The thing with taking shots is that if things don't work out you have to be willing to move back down. Just to be clear, you still need a bigger BR to even take shots at $25 NL.

[relativity_x]

I believe barry goldstein tried this out at 5000 NL on stars a while back. He'd just buy-in for 2500.

Buying in for 50 bbs makes you play a tighter game and most of your action is preflop/flop. If you're not a good postflop player, it's probably not bad for you to be doing this.

<font color="white">That and I love abusing short stacks.</font>

[Peter Harris]

where better to learn postflop play than uNL though?

I sure don't want to learn it at NL100 and above.

[Nogatsira]

OP, no offence, but you don't seem to be good in taking advice.
You ask a question, people answer correctly and you don't seem to listen. You just try to defend yourself..

[Jeffrey Dahmer]

Here's the quick report. I 4 tabled with $10. First hand I have Qd 7d in BB. Flop has 2 diamonds. Someone min bet and I called. Turn was 5d. The board was Kd6s4d 5d
I bet .50, he called. Turn was 6h. I bet $1.10. He thought and pushed his whole stack (had me COVERED) and showed pocket 4s for a full house. Then I was up against a LAG at the same table (pushed all in with 7s and 8s in 3 way pots prior) I raised to $.35 with 10 10. He re-raised, I pushed with $8 and change. He had 22, flop had a 2. I lose. Down $20. Left another table with $13 something. Finished two other tables. Lost with JJ&lt;KK, he didn't re-raise pre-flop and flop was 8 10 7. I bet pot and he pushed for a few dollars more, I lost 5 or so there. So I profited at one of the tables and lost two buy ins at another. I was -$24. I played a $10 HU SnG and won so I am down $14, and I am happy with that. Today I wasn't running bad (till this) but I never made my draws or would have to fold top pair etc. I am taking a break to get a shower, watch TV, whatever to relax then I will play again. I will try 4 tabling with $10 BIs once more. If I fail again I go back to $5 BIs. Also, when I had a full stack I seemed to be getting raised LOTS more. That was pissing me off.

[Nogatsira]

[ QUOTE ]
Here's the quick report. I 4 tabled with $10. First hand I have Qd 7d in BB. Flop has 2 diamonds. Someone min bet and I called. Turn was 5d. The board was Kd6s4d 5d
I bet .50, he called. Turn was 6h. I bet $1.10. He thought and pushed his whole stack (had me COVERED) and showed pocket 4s for a full house. Then I was up against a LAG at the same table (pushed all in with 7s and 8s in 3 way pots prior) I raised to $.35 with 10 10. He re-raised, I pushed with $8 and change. He had 22, flop had a 2. I lose. Down $20. Left another table with $13 something. Finished two other tables. Lost with JJ&lt;KK, he didn't re-raise pre-flop and flop was 8 10 7. I bet pot and he pushed for a few dollars more, I lost 5 or so there. So I profited at one of the tables and lost two buy ins at another. I was -$24. I played a $10 HU SnG and won so I am down $14, and I am happy with that. Today I wasn't running bad (till this) but I never made my draws or would have to fold top pair etc. I am taking a break to get a shower, watch TV, whatever to relax then I will play again. I will try 4 tabling with $10 BIs once more. If I fail again I go back to $5 BIs. Also, when I had a full stack I seemed to be getting raised LOTS more. That was pissing me off.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well thats exactly what we're saying. You're postflop play probably has alot of leaks. (don't get offended by this, we all have leaks in our game)

[netstorm]

I dont think you seem to be understanding the meaning of the word variance. Since you have such a negative attitude towards what is common knowledge (buying in for a full stack), you will emphasize the negative things in your session, and forget the positive things.

Take a look at the TT vs. 22 hand. If he had not flopped his 2, you would've made $10 instead of $5. You were a 80/20 to win it. Just learn to play the game with a full stack. If you are going to short stack, make it 20BBs. At 50 BBs, you will have a lot more RIO (reverse implied odds) and will not be capable of making moves or whatsoever.

you profit from you mistakes of your opponent, NOT BY WINNING A POT! So, getting more money into the pot when ahead will be more profitable over the long run instead of sucking out on someone for 30BBs or whatever. Please do a search for the sklansky bucks thread. It will illustrate what Im saying here.

[Jeffrey Dahmer]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont think you seem to be understanding the meaning of the word variance. Since you have such a negative attitude towards what is common knowledge (buying in for a full stack), you will emphasize the negative things in your session, and forget the positive things.

Take a look at the TT vs. 22 hand. If he had not flopped his 2, you would've made $10 instead of $5. You were a 80/20 to win it. Just learn to play the game with a full stack. If you are going to short stack, make it 20BBs. At 50 BBs, you will have a lot more RIO (reverse implied odds) and will not be capable of making moves or whatsoever.

you profit from you mistakes of your opponent, NOT BY WINNING A POT! So, getting more money into the pot when ahead will be more profitable over the long run instead of sucking out on someone for 30BBs or whatever. Please do a search for the sklansky bucks thread. It will illustrate what Im saying here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know that. LOL. I can't do anything with money I SHOULD have won.

[PureNHL]

[ QUOTE ]
I know that. LOL. I can't do anything with money I SHOULD have won.

[/ QUOTE ]
Ok......then start buying in full and getting it in pre-flop with 22 vs. the over pair and run goot, hit sets, and smile. What's your player id again?

[Quester]

[ QUOTE ]

I know that. LOL. I can't do anything with money I SHOULD have won.

[/ QUOTE ]

The TT v. 22 hand is a perfect example of why you should buy in full. With $10 in front of you (and your opponent), your expectation is:

10*.8 - 10*.2 = 8 - 2 = $6. That is, on average you will win $6.

With $5 in front of you:

5*.8 - 5*.2 = 4 - 1 = $3.

So by having a full buy in for this hand, you make on average twice as much.

[Jeffrey Dahmer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I know that. LOL. I can't do anything with money I SHOULD have won.

[/ QUOTE ]
Ok......then start buying in full and getting it in pre-flop with 22 vs. the over pair and run goot, hit sets, and smile. What's your player id again?

[/ QUOTE ]

I had 10 10 you idiot.

I tried 4 tabling again. This time I made $10 in 20 minutes. I had a set of jacks in one hand but the villain bet somewhat strong each time, and on the end when I made my set he re-raised me $4 from my $1 bet. I folded the three jackas because I had a weak kicker. I had the HH, but must have closed it with the tables, I wanted to show it. Oh well.

[Quester]

[ QUOTE ]
I had a set of jacks in one hand but the villain bet somewhat strong each time, and on the end when I made my set he re-raised me $4 from my $1 bet. I folded the three jackas because I had a weak kicker. I had the HH, but must have closed it with the tables, I wanted to show it. Oh well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Terminology:

Set - Having three-of-a-kind with two cards in the hole and one on the board. (e.g. improving from a pocket pair)

Trips - Having three-of-a-kind with one card in the hole and two on the board (e.g. your hand).

It sounds like you played a hand like J7 on a flop of J92 and you couldn't get away from it. You probably played this hand incorrectly, especially because you bet $1 into the pot "on the end" (= river?), and given that villain was betting into you the whole way, $1 was probably less than 1/2 pot at this point.

[ajmargarine]

2 years from now, if you are still playing poker, if you by some chance are winning at poker that whole time, look back on this thread and laugh. You'll get why it's hilarious at that time.

[UncleGogi]

Jeffrey Dahmer, tell me, please, how much hands did u play on NL10 and what profit did u have (in BBs/100 hands)?
This is the first question you should ask yourself before moving to higher level.
If you owned NL10 hard, than you can try NL25 with 10 buy-ins or even less, I moved to new pokerroom with 6 buyins :-).
Anyway 10 buy-ins is comfortable minimum for 4-tabling for me.

[Peter Harris]

[ QUOTE ]
2 years from now, if you are still playing poker, if you by some chance are winning at poker that whole time, look back on this thread and laugh. You'll get why it's hilarious at that time.

[/ QUOTE ]

[UpstateMatt]

[ QUOTE ]
I have a job for a few days a week, but make more money playing poker. Not just for fun.

[/ QUOTE ]

Having just read this entire thread, the above is either not true, or the "job" is located at a racetrack.

[Jeffrey Dahmer]

Either I run worse with a full stack or my strategy is better than yours. I lost $50 to absolute BS.
Flopped trips holding QK
QQ10r, I bet pot (about .85), he calls, turn 7d, (two diamonds now) I bet pot, he calls again), river was 5d, I go all in (2x pot) he calls and has AdKd, for a runner runner flush. Another hand I raise 3.5xBB (I always do, not just after listening to you guys) and get 3 callers. Flop was 6 7 2r. I bet pot again, ONE guy calls. Turn was a 10. I bet pot and he raises for a tad more all in. I call. What did he call a pot bet with on the flop? 6 10.
One more hand. I had 55, flop was 69Ar, checked around, turn was a 5, I bet over the pot, somone raises all in, he has 78 for a straight. Lost 3 full or better than full stacks because I had full stacks. I played with half buy ins and am up $10...So, I did not have one winning session (4 hours total) playing with a full stack. I got called by J high flush draws all in with a set, gutshot straight draws, etc etc. It turned out terrible. I am only playing with 1/2 BI with my old strategy, playing tight and after the flop. I HATE variance but you guys must love it playing as aggressive as you do. I play aggressive when I likely have the winner, not because the book says to. JA is a call, and AQ is a raise. That's how I profited and that's what i'm sticking to.