Suited Connecter -- Theory on how to play them

[Capone]

Now, I a lot of you have seen my last posts about the pocket pair discussion, and I was suprised to the great discussion that took place. In fact, I recieved a few private messages requesting I create the same type of thread for suited connecters. I was in fact going to anyways in a couple days but I will do so now, since everyone is interested.

Now here are a few questions to get the discussion boiling:

1)In early position do we come in for a raise if no one has yet to enter a pot with a suited connecter?

2)In Middle position what do we do with a suited connecter when there is 1 limper behind us? 2 Limpers?

3)In middle position what do we do if there is a raiser who opened from early position or utg?

4) From late position/button what do we do if people have limped?

5)From late position/button what do we do if there has been a single raise?

6)Any other thoughts?


OF course the answers are situational but i mean theoretically whats your view?

[relativity_x]

The answer to all six questions is the same: it really depends on table dynamics.

If you're playing at a loose table, scs are not valuable OOP. If you're playing at a tight table, then they become more valuable in earlier positions.

[Capone]

lol I know I'm just saying in theory.

[relativity_x]

well specify the table conditions, then the questions are answered for you. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Capone]

lets assume its our first hand at the table.

[CobraGoat]

1. depends
2. depends
3. usually fold
4. depends
5. depends
6. that is all

specific examples please...

[corsakh]

All questions depend at least on:

a) your image - if you have raised 4/5 times in the last orbit, you should pass on;
b) table image - if there are many calling station behind you, you should pass on;
c) stack sizes - if there are many shorties at the table, you should pass on.

Now closer:

1) Unless players behind you are tight and you are destroying the game - pass on;

2) Raise. Unless limpers are short. I sometimes call with one or two gappers.

3) Call a TAG. Raise a LAG like 1 in 5.

4) See 2.

5) I raise like 1 in 3. Otherwise call.

[Capone]

Thanks everyone for contributing.

Why should we be less inclined to play suited connectors if there are calling stations behind us? Wouldn't we want calling stations to call so that that when we hit we get paid off?

[relativity_x]

Assumption: We're new to the table
[ QUOTE ]
1)In early position do we come in for a raise if no one has yet to enter a pot with a suited connecter? <font color="red"> no, we have no reads. </font>

2)In Middle position what do we do with a suited connecter when there is 1 limper behind us? 2 Limpers?
<font color="red"> 1 limper is a fold. I might raise qks though depends on my mood. You can't have 2 limpers in MP at 6max, but I assume you mean CO. I'd be tempted to call with most 56s+</font>

3)In middle position what do we do if there is a raiser who opened from early position or utg?
<font color="red"> fold to unkown villain utg. You have to give him/her credit. </font>

4) From late position/button what do we do if people have limped?
<font color="red"> 2/3 limpers, I'll just call with 56s+ </font>

5)From late position/button what do we do if there has been a single raise?
<font color="red"> without a read fold </font>
6)Any other thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

[Capone]

cool so basically, without reads we can fold to a raise.

And the more callers the more inclined we should be to call.

What players do we want to play these types of hands against?

[relativity_x]

like corksucka pointed out. Stack sizes matter because that's where you're getting implied odds from.

I have a different philosophy as I'd rather raise a TAG limper than a LAG limper (unless we know he can fold most garbage).

[Capone]

I guess these type of hands highly depend on situation and table dynamics.

But can we all agree on this:

-They play better from late position
-The more opponents that have limped in the better
-To a single raise on the button we should re-raise

[Heine]

how is there a limper behind you?

I'm raising +10Js on almost everyone. Especially if opening ranges are better than 19%. Some of the small suited connectors call, even more fold. Remember, don't over estimate your implied odds with these suited connectors.

[CobraGoat]

raising SC's OOP is a semi-bluff. if there are calling stations to act behind you the EV of the bluff decreases. you guarantee leaving yourself playing a weak hand OOP.

[Capone]

Thats true, the deeper the stacks the better.

[corsakh]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks everyone for contributing.

Why should we be less inclined to play suited connectors if there are calling stations behind us? Wouldn't we want calling stations to call so that that when we hit we get paid off?

[/ QUOTE ]

When you raise with 98s you probably have one of the worst hands at the table. K2o is way better than this. Its essentially a bluff to create yourself an image of a loose player. When you bluff, you dont want to get called, you want the blinds. Worst case scenario, take down the pot with a cbet. Its much easier to do so in position against tight players, not someone who calls you down with any piece of the flop.

Now the reason you raise 98s not K2o is because first, it keeps you out of trouble. If you get called or raised on the flop you can immediately see where you stand. Where is with K2o chances are you will be dominated every second hand you play. And second, 98s has a great potential to hit monsters if you can see 5 cards. K2o has no potential other than a K22 flop /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Now, calling with a raise with SC behind a lot of calling station is a different approach and you play it to hit a monster flop or get out. When you raise a SC yourself you play it to take the pot down with a cbet.

[CobraGoat]

[ QUOTE ]
I guess these type of hands highly depend on situation and table dynamics.

But can we all agree on this:

-They play better from late position
-The more opponents that have limped in the better
-To a single raise on the button we should re-raise

[/ QUOTE ]

im honestly annoyed (not sure what my problem is) that this thread has perpetuated (and im to blame for contributing!) without specific hand examples included.

play with SCs is not suited to be discussed without specific examples of hands and the various lines taken.

i think some generalizations can be made about medium and small PPs PF. i do not think such generalizations can be made with respect to SCs.

the last point made in the above quoted text is a perfect example of how bad it is to try and generalize SC play. i read that last point was like "What?!?! How the F did we get here?"

[Capone]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Thanks everyone for contributing.

Why should we be less inclined to play suited connectors if there are calling stations behind us? Wouldn't we want calling stations to call so that that when we hit we get paid off?

[/ QUOTE ]

When you raise with 98s you probably have one of the worst hands at the table. K2o is way better than this. Its essentially a bluff to create yourself an image of a loose player. When you bluff, you dont want to get called, you want the blinds. Worst case scenario, take down the pot with a cbet. Its much easier to do so in position against tight players, not someone who calls you down with any piece of the flop.

Now the reason you raise 98s not K2o is because first, it keeps you out of trouble. If you get called or raised on the flop you can immediately see where you stand. Where is with K2o chances are you will be dominated every second hand you play. And second, 98s has a great potential to hit monsters if you can see 5 cards. K2o has no potential other than a K22 flop /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Now, calling with a raise with SC behind a lot of calling station is a different approach and you play it to hit a monster flop or get out. When you raise a SC yourself you play it to take the pot down with a cbet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Waoh, great post thank you. Thank you for taking the time to clearly explain it.

When we raise with suited connecters it is to help our image, and we can take down the pot with a c-bet.

Against calling stations we play them to flop monsters or get out.

Against tags, we play them to flop monsters but also to cbet and steal.

[corsakh]

Well.. We call raises to flop monsters. The more calling station in the pot the better /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Plus against a station's range your 98s may not always be that bad since he is likely to have Q5s type of hand and when the flop comes 852 you can take him to value town without a monster /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Just always remember one thing, if want to raise with a SC say on CO and there is a station on the button - its bad. If there is a station UTG or in the blinds - its ok.

[Capone]

lol good point /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[simonpoker]

1)In early position do we come in for a raise if no one has yet to enter a pot with a suited connecter?

<font color="red"> In a tight table with proper Image we can raise.On a loose table regardless to our image coming in for a raise with SC OOP isn't profitable..usually. </font>

2)In Middle position what do we do with a suited connecter when there is 1 limper behind us? 2 Limpers?

<font color="red"> I would limp 54s+ usually with 2 limpers pretty much always </font>

3)In middle position what do we do if there is a raiser who opened from early position or utg?

<font color="red"> If we both are 100BB+ and the raise was ~4xBB I would call it(I'd like to have some information on this guy so if I have not play'd with him I will dump it but if I've played reasonable ammount of hands to know what kind of a player he is I'll call it). </font>

4) From late position/button what do we do if people have limped?

<font color="red"> call obviously or you want to raise?I think there are times players etc. where you raise SC but you should be capable of spotting them in game. </font>

5)From late position/button what do we do if there has been a single raise?

<font color="red"> 100BB+ I'd call it </font>

6)Any other thoughts?

<font color="red"> http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...part=1&amp;vc=1 (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&amp;Number=6996709&amp;page=0&amp;fpart=1&amp;v c=1) </font>

[DickieBets]

So would it be safe to say that, in general, suited connectors are good to play for semi bluff value as described earlier by corsakh against 1 or two players or if you can get in cheaply with multiple players - looking to hit a monster?

So if you're the button and you don't think a raise will narrow the field, it might be good to limp in case you hit a nice hand on the flop, otherwise the flop is an easy fold?

Also if someone raises preflop - you're looking for implied odds of at least about 11:1 to call with pocket pairs - what would you be looking at for suited connectors ?

[ben wb]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Thanks everyone for contributing.

Why should we be less inclined to play suited connectors if there are calling stations behind us? Wouldn't we want calling stations to call so that that when we hit we get paid off?

[/ QUOTE ]

When you raise with 98s you probably have one of the worst hands at the table. K2o is way better than this.

[/ QUOTE ]Just reading through this old topic but that's not actually true. If you pokerstove it 98s is actually better against a random hand even all in preflop than K2o is. Against a tighter range like any pair AJ+, 98s is even further ahead and multiway it's also way better. Even 98 suited v K2o all in preflop is a coinflip.

So 98s is not just a lot more playable than K2, it is actually a stronger hand.

[Grunch]

Above all else suited connectors need 2 things to play well: implied odds and relative position. Neither of these things are easy to get in EP or MP especially at a full table. So considering these things normally your first inclination should be to fold SCs in EP and MP. This starts to change if cbetting is profitable for you at that time, but then the money you make comes mostly from cbetting. The fact that you have a SC starts to become an escape hatch for you rather than primary value.

Relative position is distinct from absolute position. Consider the following. NL100, 100 effective stacks. You are on the SB with 78s. UTG opens for 4, MP calls, LP calls, its on you. Your absolutre position is as bad as it can be; you will be first to act on every poistflop street. And yet you should definitely call. Your relative position is perfect. When the flop comes you will check often, then the UTG player will bet and the 2 players behind him will have yet to act. You virtually have the button here, which is why your relative position is so good.

[dimeetrees]

Certain full 10/9 handed tables have loose-passive dynamics where there isnt a lot of raising preflop and you can see a cheap flop. Peoples post flop skills are bad as well so they tend to lose a lot of chips with lesser holdings, this is a great time to play SC'ers OOP WITHOUT raising.

I think if the table is 6 handed or less and weak tightish, raising with them and c-betting the flop can also be profitable...

I wouldnt open up my raising range with low to mid SC'ers on a stronger table where players will adjust and 3bet you light as well as raise your cbets.

If you have a lot of passive players per flop and u can see a cheap flop playing SC'ers is great from any position.