50NL; AK TPTK in 3bet pot vs. loose passive who is being aggro [Archive]

Lego05

07-12-2007, 01:37 AM

Villian is 37/5.5/.74 postfop agg. over 146 hands.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

CO ($60)
Hero ($79.15)
SB ($53.20)
BB ($42.40)
UTG ($44.70)
MP ($78.35)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
3 folds, Hero raises to $2, SB raises to $5, 1 fold, Hero calls $3.

Flop: ($10.50) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
SB bets $8, Hero calls $8.

Turn: ($26.50) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
SB bets $22, Hero ???

Learning

07-12-2007, 01:49 AM

I'd raise flop just to see where you're at, but I think it's pretty clear that someone with 0.74 AF doesn't reraise pre without a premium hand. You're at best a split here.

corsakh

07-12-2007, 02:16 AM

Just shove it already if you gone this far. Why would you call with a 3bet with AK to pussy out on the turn?

Lego05

07-12-2007, 02:24 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Just shove it already if you gone this far. Why would you call with a 3bet with AK to pussy out on the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I wasn't planning to, but now I have more info then I did before. If the above is your actual logic to push this then i think it's horrible. I'm almost positive I was ahead of or at least not far behind his range pre-flop. However, the question is whether or not I'm ahead of his range on the turn.

rakes.a.beach

07-12-2007, 02:37 AM

His pf range looks JJ+ AK. His pfr is 5.5. I don't think you're ahead of his pf range, though you're getting a Vgood price. I'd prob call there too.

As played, I don't mind a call or a fold. He could be bluffing JJ/QQ or have AA. If I call, I obv call any river.

eWeet

07-12-2007, 02:40 AM

I would say that it looks like you are behind his range. His PRF is 5.5 which means he's only raising you w/ premium hands. The fact that you are getting reraised preflop by the villain means that villain can have AA,KK,QQ, and AK. From the way villain played flop and turn, looks like villain has AA,KK, or AK.

I would minraised the flop bet to see where you stand. You would still be able to fold it if villain reraises the minraise.

cooker3

07-12-2007, 03:12 AM

[ QUOTE ]

I would minraised the flop bet to see where you stand. You would still be able to fold it if villain reraises the minraise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ugh that is just horrible advice.

Anyway I like how you played it and it's a fold for me now.

iwa

07-12-2007, 04:48 AM

Why is a flop min raise horrible? I like that line more than just flat calling the flop. I'm laying this down on the turn to 37/5.5/.74 ... especially since you have >100 hands

cooker3

07-12-2007, 05:40 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Why is a flop min raise horrible? I like that line more than just flat calling the flop. I'm laying this down on the turn to 37/5.5/.74 ... especially since you have >100 hands

[/ QUOTE ]

What does it achieve exactly? It pretty much folds or slows down all hands you beat and all the hands that are ahead are certainly not going to fold to it.
Calling and seeing does he bet the turn achieves the same goal as I don't think he fires 2 barrells with something we beat and it is cheaper then a min raise.

iwa

07-12-2007, 05:48 AM

I agree with you, I just think a min raise is cheap here and will give you a better idea of where you're at. Do you fold no matter what amount he bets on the turn?

cooker3

07-12-2007, 05:54 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with you, I just think a min raise is cheap here and will give you a better idea of where you're at. Do you fold no matter what amount he bets on the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

yes but flat calling and folding the turn is even cheaper!
A whole 16bb cheaper
And raising to "find out where you are at" is never ever the best play.
I may call if he min betted, thats about it, with his stats I don't think he 3 bets and fires 2 barrels with a hand worse then AK

roll

07-12-2007, 06:02 AM

If villain's range is JJ+ and AK then on the flop he has JJ, QQ, or AK 18/22 times. He has JJ or QQ 12/22 times. Because of the overwhelming percentage of time that you're ahead or tieing and his low flop agression I would make it $24 on the flop. If he shoves I'd fold (assuming you don't think he would shove AK). If he calls I'd shove the turn to try to push him off AK.

I don't really see what you accomplish by calling the flop as I doubt he continues betting with JJ or QQ and you don't gain any information.

Edit: I realise you gain some information on the turn by just calling the flop bet. More specifically, you find out whether he had JJ/QQ or not, but this isn't valuable information. What is valuable is knowing whether he has AK. As I said before if you think villain will only call a flop raise with AK, but shove a flop riase with KK/AA then I think raising is clearly correct as it becomes simultaneously the cheapest way to find out if you're beat and the line with the most fold equity against AK.

iwa

07-12-2007, 06:09 AM

raising to find out where you are at is never the best play? I disagree with that statement very strongly. Information is the key. I think he is capable of leading the turn with qq or jj with a smaller size bet, not to be results oriented with the size of turn bet he made, because I think in this situation it is an obvious laydown. With JJ and QQ he would not be 'firing' 2 barrels, he could think his hand is the best hand and be protecting it from drawers while being OOP.

cooker3

07-12-2007, 06:18 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Edit: I realise you gain some information on the turn by just calling the flop bet. More specifically, you find out whether he had JJ/QQ or not, but this isn't valuable information. What is valuable is knowing whether he has AK. As I said before if you think villain will only call a flop raise with AK, but shove a flop riase with KK/AA then I think raising is clearly correct as it becomes simultaneously the cheapest way to find out if you're beat and the line with the most fold equity against AK.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree in theory but I think it would be really hard to know that villain will push with aa/kk but only flat call with ak. That is so specific that you would know to have played a hell of a lot of hands with him.

cooker3

07-12-2007, 06:20 AM

[ QUOTE ]
raising to find out where you are at is never the best play? I disagree with that statement very strongly. Information is the key. I think he is capable of leading the turn with qq or jj with a smaller size bet, not to be results oriented with the size of turn bet he made, because I think in this situation it is an obvious laydown. With JJ and QQ he would not be 'firing' 2 barrels, he could think his hand is the best hand and be protecting it from drawers while being OOP.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes poker is all about information but raising with sole intention of finding out where you are at without any other reason is bad, this has been demonstrated over and over again.

iwa

07-12-2007, 06:22 AM

Really, I do it all the time with very positive results.

cooker3

07-12-2007, 06:31 AM

You start playing at a decent level and keep doing that then good players will soon start telling you where you are at whether they have a hand or not.

roll

07-12-2007, 06:35 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I agree in theory but I think it would be really hard to know that villain will push with aa/kk but only flat call with ak. That is so specific that you would know to have played a hell of a lot of hands with him.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point, I was saying all that based on the low .74 postflop agression factor but I guess it would be better to have real reads or at least a couple thousand hands on villain before taking my line for my reasons.

iwa

07-12-2007, 06:38 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You start playing at a decent level and keep doing that then good players will soon start telling you where you are at whether they have a hand or not.

[/ QUOTE ]

go on...

don't get me wrong, I hardly ever make min raises. I think this situation provides an opportunity to min raise the villian in order to determine if ak is good in this situation.

monkover

07-12-2007, 07:50 AM

i din´t read all the other comments but i´m folding this on the turn. preflop prob is marginal flop you def have to call b/c you prob are also ahead of villain´s cbet/valuebetting range . once he fires the turn we´re close to never good here.

bozzer

07-12-2007, 07:52 AM

good line so far, just call him down.

bozzer

07-12-2007, 07:55 AM

he doesn't raise much preflop, fine, but we can't just put him on KK+ here. Splitting is definately likely, but it's just way too weak to fold this.

cooker3

07-12-2007, 08:12 AM

[ QUOTE ]
he doesn't raise much preflop, fine, but we can't just put him on KK+ here. Splitting is definately likely, but it's just way too weak to fold this.

[/ QUOTE ]

he didn't raise too much true but he did re-raise. What sort of 3 bet range do you give someone who is 5.5?

bozzer

07-12-2007, 08:36 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
he doesn't raise much preflop, fine, but we can't just put him on KK+ here. Splitting is definately likely, but it's just way too weak to fold this.

[/ QUOTE ]

he didn't raise too much true but he did re-raise. What sort of 3 bet range do you give someone who is 5.5?

[/ QUOTE ]

maybe not that different to what he's already raising, esp given he might be positionally aware and this is a steal situation? I don't think this is megabux, but folding is very nasty for meta and people will 3b KQ sometimes. plus we have odds to call for the split i think?