50nl: Flopped top two, scary turn spot...

[ReNoRyan]

I hate this turn spot, my position sucks and so does this turn card. What line should I be taking here??

CO is 40/16/1
MP is 18/9/1

Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.25/$0.50 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh))

SB: $12.30
Hero (BB): $50.00
UTG: $52.05
MP: $15.50
CO: $26.50
BTN: $68.80

Preflop: Hero is dealt A/images/graemlins/heart.gif Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (6 Players)
UTG folds, MP calls $0.50, <font color="red">CO raises to $2.00</font>, 2 folds, Hero calls $1.50, MP calls $1.50

Flop: ($6.25) T/images/graemlins/club.gif A/images/graemlins/club.gif Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $4.00</font>, MP calls $4.00, CO calls $4.00

Turn: ($18.25) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 Players)
<font color="red">Hero ???

[Capone]

bet 15

[Khaos4k]

How many hands do you have on the villains? Any reads?

[PRE]

Please don't bet. Check

[ReNoRyan]

[ QUOTE ]
How many hands do you have on the villains? Any reads?

[/ QUOTE ]

I just sat down, I have aroun d 20-30 hands on each.

[ReNoRyan]

[ QUOTE ]
bet 15

[/ QUOTE ]

Explain plz........

[Khaos4k]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How many hands do you have on the villains? Any reads?

[/ QUOTE ]

I just sat down, I have aroun d 20-30 hands on each.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure if that's enough to be making reads off of yet. And this is an ugly ugly spot agaisnt unknowns. The problem is, what are they calling on the flop that we beat now?

Some lone aces are probably in the range. Straights and flush draws are possible, especially from the CO who is getting 3.5:1 on his money. I think two pair is raising you on the flop given how drawy it is.

I think that villains will be pretty tight on a flop like this with a ten. Probably just JT and KT calling. Sigh, I'm really lost here OOP.

[shoxbb6]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
bet 15

[/ QUOTE ]

Explain plz........

[/ QUOTE ]
Ax and Flush draws are a large part of villains' ranges, you need to protect your hand

[corsakh]

See the problem with this hand is, donk is pretty bad into multiple opponents. If you get called and you see a turn, you are in trouble from half a deck. I prefer taking the pot on the flop, so c/r.

As played, a lone ten is unlikely and a two pair ten would probably raise the flop so I think your in good shape. One of the villains probably has a AJ or AK and the other one on a flush draw. So bet, I'd say around $12.

[iwa]

Why not c/r the flop? I'm betting this turn as played.

[shoxbb6]

[ QUOTE ]
See the problem with this hand is, donk is pretty bad into multiple opponents. If you get called and you see a turn, you are in trouble from half a deck. I prefer taking the pot on the flop, so c/r.

[/ QUOTE ]
I prefer a donk here to a c/r most of the time, by donking, we can trap mp's dead money and even get a co raise a good portion of the time.

[Genz]

I either reraise or fold preflop. I only consider a flat call when they are suited.
Why do you donk the flop? bet/3bet all in? Was that your plan? The board is far too coordinated for my taste. I think I check/raise. That will most certainly force MP out and will force CO to play his hand straightforwardly, i.e. reraise all-in which I would insta-call, considering his half stack. If he flat called, I'd push the turn.

[iwa]

[ QUOTE ]
I either reraise or fold preflop. I only consider a flat call when they are suited.
Why do you donk the flop? bet/3bet all in? Was that your plan? The board is far too coordinated for my taste. I think I check/raise. That will most certainly force MP out and will force CO to play his hand straightforwardly, i.e. reraise all-in which I would insta-call, considering his half stack. If he flat called, I'd push the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. Donking on a flop as coordinated as this is begging to get owned on the turn by 2 different players. They call with such a wide range, you have no idea where you're at.

[shadypac]

Lol i think some of you are being a little results oriented here, im willing to bet if he checked with the intention to checkraise and the others checked behind and a third club came you would all be like "you have to lead this flop for about pot"!!! Im not normally check raising a flop like this for that reason, i dunno maybe its a leak in my game.

[iwa]

Negative, I always check this flop, 100% of the time. If the board gets really mess on the turn I'll have no problem folding to resistance when I lead the turn.

[roll]

I think checking this flop is a bad idea. CO's range is wide and as a result I think he's checking through on this flop often because its 3-way. I bet the flop because its likely you have the best hand and not very likely that you'll have the chance to c/r. I also do not want to go to the turn 3-way and see any club T, J, or K hit.

I find it unlikely that MP floats this flop with a T with the preflop raiser still to act. I also find it very unlikely that CO overcalls the flop with 2 pair or better.

I agree with earlier poster's assessments that MP is likely drawing however I think that CO could have JT or KT in addition to AK or AJ.

I lead the turn expecting MP to fold and CO to continue calling when he has AK/AJ and fold to a turn raise as he probably has JT/KT.

[iwa]

If they have any of those draws, they are calling your flop bet anyways. What sense does it make to build a pot for the draws oop and give them fantastic odds to call for cheap? When you lead this pot and get 2 callers, it's very difficult to determine hand strength of your opponents behind.

[roll]

[ QUOTE ]
What sense does it make to build a pot for the draws oop and give them fantastic odds to call for cheap?

[/ QUOTE ]

Checking the flop would be giving them "fantastic odds". You bet because you likely have the best hand and you aren't giving them fantastic odds because you aren't stacking off when the draws hit and they suddenly wake up, hence why I advocate leading the flop and bet/folding the turn when a scare card hits.

[iwa]

You're right, checking the flop would be giving them fantastic odds, but, it would not be building a pot. You have to realize the villian or villians are going to be calling your bet with every draw they have if you lead here. C/R is the only way to push them off their draw. Playing OOP is tricky, and often is the place where most people will end up losing most of their money. If a scare card hits on the turn after leading the flop, why would you even bother betting?

If you're playing hands like this against me, I guarentee you I'm going to make it into a situation where you're going to be losing a lot of money in the long run.

[shadypac]

[ QUOTE ]
You're right, checking the flop would be giving them fantastic odds, but, it would not be building a pot. You have to realize the villian or villians are going to be calling your bet with every draw they have if you lead here. C/R is the only way to push them off their draw. Playing OOP is tricky, and often is the place where most people will end up losing most of their money. If a scare card hits on the turn after leading the flop, why would you even bother betting?

If you're playing hands like this against me, I guarentee you I'm going to make it into a situation where you're going to be losing a lot of money in the long run.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would they be calling with "every" draw the have. unless the person in position is getting 3-1 because the other guy calls. But we dont know there hands, we are assuming they all have KT, JT, AT, QT and stuff like that. Why isnt it concievable they they have suited connectors or smaller pairs here? And if you bet pot on the flop a hand like TJ isnt getting good odds to call because for all he knows his straight outs r a chopped pot and thats if a non club comes. His 2 pair makes someone a straight, so hes gonna call a pot sized bet for another 10? Id like someone to do that for me all day long. My point is because of the likely results your putting them on far to narrow of a range. If we "knew" the guy last to act had 2 clubs or KQ then maybe check raise is the play but we dont know that at all.

[roll]

[ QUOTE ]
If a scare card hits on the turn after leading the flop, why would you even bother betting?


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not saying I'm thrilled about betting when a scare card hits but I like it a lot better than checking because

a) you figure out where you're at, I don't think anyone is bluff raising you after you lead the flop and turn into a preflop riaser and

b) there are multiple draws out there so any one draw hitting doesn't mean that you're beat. I'm checking if the two worst cards in the deck hit: the J or K of clubs and that's it.

[ QUOTE ]
If you're playing hands like this against me, I guarentee you I'm going to make it into a situation where you're going to be losing a lot of money in the long run.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe you'll win some from me in the long run by playing your flush draw on this flop but so what? I'm pushing you off it the 4/5 times that you don't hit on the turn, I'm giving you one 3/4 psb when you do hit, and the 4/5 of the time you don't hit I'm building a big pot against CO, who very likely has a worse hand.

[Peter Harris]

obv flop c/r

b/f turn as played.

[roll]

[ QUOTE ]
obv flop c/r

[/ QUOTE ]

If c/ring this flop is "obv" then explain your reasoning please.

[Peter Harris]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
obv flop c/r

[/ QUOTE ]

If c/ring this flop is "obv" then explain your reasoning please.

[/ QUOTE ]

Flat call preflop, villain is likely to c-bet. You want the maximum chance of squeezing out the player in the middle or committing them, betting out is unlikely to thin the field here, and when you c/r the flop you are more likely to see villain's reaction than when they merely peel.

I think it's an obvious and correct spot to c/r since betting out, even pot, doesn't help when it turns less than wonderful.

[ssdex]

im checking turn and c/r flop, I think a lead is meh here b/c its the kind of flop your going to get a cbet on most of the time and ur hand is underrepped since you didnt 3bet in the BB, this is a pretty good 3bet spot fwiw.
-dex

[Check_The_Nuts]

lol dudes AF is 1 I think check/raise turn is insaneeeeee. I would bet fold or check/call a medium sized bet but probably not a big one. I probably lean more towards betting just cuz i only wanna put in one more bet versus this guy and if I bet I get to size it (keep in mind I'm likely much much more aggro than you which makes him call with a wider range).

[Peter Harris]

sample size isn't given. AF = 1 means he bets as much as calls, and with a 40 VPIP that means he's hardly passive.

PA HUD AFs are a little more useful. But again they are sample dependent.

[Check_The_Nuts]

Peter I'm not worried about the fish, MP here has us beat a lot. I dunno if a bet commits us. I didn't realize 3 ppl called the flop. I may just check this turn now that its 3 way. Maybe bet something real small like half pot, fold to raise from MP, call raise from fish.

[ReNoRyan]

Ok here is the way the turn played out...I'm sure this is a call for pot odd reasons but what do I beat here??? AK, Aj, flush draw....??

Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.25/$0.50 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh))

SB: $12.30
Hero (BB): $50.00
UTG: $52.05
MP: $15.50
CO: $26.50
BTN: $68.80

Preflop: Hero is dealt A/images/graemlins/heart.gif Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (6 Players)
UTG folds, MP calls $0.50, <font color="red">CO raises to $2.00</font>, 2 folds, Hero calls $1.50, MP calls $1.50

Flop: ($6.25) T/images/graemlins/club.gif A/images/graemlins/club.gif Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $4.00</font>, MP calls $4.00, CO calls $4.00

Turn: ($18.25) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $10.00</font>, MP folds, <font color="red">CO raises all-in to $20.50</font>

Pot Size: $48.75

[Check_The_Nuts]

uh u have two pair and r getting like 5 to 1 super easy call.

[terencetsao]

i really looking forward to see what CO has, interesting how he just smooth call the flop and push all in on the turn knowing you are calling regardless.
im not crazy but i think i will fold there, the only hand we beat is AK... ahh
looks like CO has KJ right?

[infinite_loop]

Unless the CO is particularly nitty I think you need to be re-popping this pre. Also, a little stronger c-bet is probably needed on the flop as well. I'd go almost nearly pot. As played, I don't think you can check that turn. It's thin but your hand is likely to still be good and you need to take this pot down with a bet of like 14 and fold to a re-raise or river resistance. If you check you could easily have opened the door to a bluff or a scare card could hit the river making it an impossible spot for you.

[infinite_loop]

I didn't realize the villain is short. Well I still bet the same with the obvious intention of getting it in against him.