new to nl, big pot bit draw hand

[Guruman]

i've played almost zero nl in my life. gave it a shot today.

there's probably a standard line here, though I have no idea what it is. I'm busy reading all of the faq threads now.

villain and I are both playing loosely and aggressively, though neither of us has gotten it all in at this table after about 50 hands.

Im thinking on the turn that the stack sizes are about right to warrant getting it all in with the oesd+flsh draw that I have added to the FE i'll need.

Was this correct? Should I have open shoved? bet some smaller amt?

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.10/$0.25
6 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
UTG: $26
UTG+1: $38.05
CO: $21.05
Button: $30.75
Guruman: $34.25
BB: $34.35

Pre-flop: (6 players) Guruman is SB with T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, CO calls, Button calls, Guruman calls $0.15 <font color="aaaaaa">(pot was $1.1)</font>, <font color="#cc0000">BB raises to $2.75</font>, 3 folds, Guruman calls $2.5 <font color="aaaaaa">(pot was $3.75)</font>.

Flop: 8/images/graemlins/club.gif K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($6.25, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Guruman bets $1.75</font>, <font color="#cc0000">BB raises to $5</font>, Guruman calls $3.25 <font color="aaaaaa">(pot was $13)</font>.

Turn: J/images/graemlins/club.gif ($16.25, 2 players)
Guruman checks, <font color="#cc0000">BB bets $9</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Guruman raises all-in $26.5</font>

[shoxbb6]

Preflop is not good, completing this is fine, but calling BB's 11x bb raise when everyone else has folded, leaving you oop w/ a fairly defined hand is not good.
Flop, I don't like a small donk bet unless you plan to push over his raise.
Turn I actually like since he's so weak, I think you get a fold enough here.

[Capone]

Yeah pre-flop isnt good out of position with only 1 caller.

on the flop I would just check, I wouldnt donk it. I would call a bet.

I like your turn shove here. You have a ton of outs, and you have folding equity.

[Jzo19]

ummm super standard fold preflop ..,OOP with T9s is meh ..

small bet on flop is looking to get RR...either donk bet 2/3 pit or c/f

[Mike Kelley]

I think villain calls in this situation around 95% of the time.

[Capone]

You know what know that I go street by street and analyze it hes not getting away from this hand we have little folding equity here. Whatever he has hes in love wiht,.

[Guruman]

so pf i was thinking that we were both deep enough that i had good IO if i caught and there was going to be a chance i could blow him off of the best hand on the right boards postflop. I agree that the pf raise was too big though, and pf is essentially what got me into the situation on the turn. Given the stack sizes and the fact that everyone else folded (and that this is a squeeze situation) what size raise should I be calling here?

flop I was just trying to buy a cheap turn card. I guess the rationale for checking is to hope he makes a small enough cont bet, but in reality i thought I could get away with setting the bet size up myself instead. There was a chance he could push me off of my draw, but that chance existed no matter what I did. Also the remote chance that he was squeezing with cheeze pf gave me a touch of fold equity with the donk that I needed.

turn i think i like the checkraise shove. it creates a smaller pot when he checks through and I catch, which is bad, but he's less likely to pay that range of his hands off on the turn anyway. It also can push him off of bigger flush draws, maybe top pr, and a slew of other hands that 10 or more outs to beat me.

[Peter Harris]

Guruuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu

you have joined the dark side too! w00t

PF is nasty, the complete is standard but it's a fold to the big PF raise. IO and all, playing speculative hands OOP heads up is pretty sucky.

Flop i understand the donk, it's a semi-bluff and blocking bet. Shame it doesn't pan out. However, that turn card is perfect to c/r on, you have a bajillion outs AND FE assuming villain hasn't flopped a set, or can't fold AA.

Taking a break from HU LHE? PM me, i've been off MSN recently with the wedding and all, but i'll be back on soon. If you want any NL sessions reviewed email me bro.

/images/graemlins/heart.gif
Pete

EDIT: i agree you should bet more like 1/2 pot on the flop.

[relativity_x]

I would recommend playing 20k hands TAG before you try to LAG it up in 25 NL.

With that said, you're preflop is okay, but not great because you're playing OOP with a marginal hand, so I don't normally recommend this to beginners.

On the flop, your weak donk bet screams blocking for the flush draw. If you're going to lead that flop, 5 dollars is about right. I think a good line here is a crai or a cc.

On the turn, no draw got there, so you're basically screaming I'm on a flush draw. Also, your CRAI on the turn gives him 3:1 odds to call, so you have 0 FE on the turn.

Therefore, I believe the best play to maximise your FE is to CRAI on the flop.

[relativity_x]

1) you do have the IO to call his raise preflop. He can be doing this with ATC if he is playing very agro.
2) if you bet 1.75 into a 6 dollar pot on the flop, expect to be raised 100% of the time with ATC from an agro player.
3) CRAI on the turn is the worst play of the hand for the lack of FE. The only hand folding is air, and I'd even have to call with bottom pair.

[CobraGoat]

lol at capone first saying "turn shove is great you have tons of fold equity" to "terrible you have no fold equity."

in any case, listen to X's advice that you should start out super TAG in uNL. As you get thousands of hands under your belt and come to understand various lines depending on your hand your position your opponent, effective stacks sizes etc, you can slowly add in hands and move to a slightly more laggy game. but honestly LAG is really not ideal at uNL, esp. when you are starting out.

i switched over to nl CG's about a year ago from $20-30 sngs. i started at .25/.5 w stats of 25/12 and did not do to well. i dropped to .1/.25 about 5 mo's ago with a BR of ~$250. started with same stats (which would be considered fairly laggy) continued to show mediocre results. read read read this forum. i am now running like 17/15/2.5 and doing waaayyy better. NOW im about to move up to .25/.5.

as for the hand, if you stick w NL and this forum you will look back in a few months and realize your PF call was aweful and your flop donk bet is even worse. most solid players on this forum in villains shoes will raise your donk bet everytime no matter their cards. in this case, villain let you off easy by only minRing you. so your flop call of the raise is fine.

on the turn, check and probably call a decent size bet because you likely have 15 good outs. if you hit on river, esp the straight, you are very likely to get additional monies.

but once the pot is this big with those stacks left behind and nothing terrifying came in on turn you have little fold equity.

[Gullanian]

Calling 10% of your stack off for implied odds isn't a good idea IMO.

[relativity_x]

for beginners who aren't comfortable with post flop play, it's probably not the best idea.

If I was playing the hand, I'd raise it up to 2.75 myself from the SB. As Played, he's calling 2.50 with effective stacks of 34. That's almost 14:1 odds, which is enough to call OOP with IO IMO.

LOL @ the ABVS.........

[CobraGoat]

peter,

at 25NL there is like no fold equity on this turn given how villain has played.

also, flop semi-bluff (not donkbet as i mistakenly labeled it earlier) should be 1/2-2/3 otherwise any good villain is repopping you. personally, i think semi-bluffing like this in a raised pot is -EV because there is no real bluff aspect to it. if villain was original aggressor, it is very rare they simply lay their hand down on flop.

[relativity_x]

you correctly labelled it as a donk bet. A donk bet is any lead into a villain who bet last on the last street.

Donk bets can be value/bluff/semi-bluff.

[Peter Harris]

I think you can expect a villain like this to be capable of mucking AK/AA here some of the time, so to say there is no fold equity given play is a little extreme. Less than some hope, yes. None, no.

[relativity_x]

Pot Odds 101
[ QUOTE ]

Stack sizes:
UTG: $26
UTG+1: $38.05
CO: $21.05
Button: $30.75
Guruman: $34.25
BB: $34.35

Pre-flop: (6 players) Guruman is SB with T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, CO calls, Button calls, Guruman calls $0.15 (pot was $1.1), BB raises to $2.75, 3 folds, Guruman calls $2.5 (pot was $3.75).

Flop: 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($6.25, 2 players)
Guruman bets $1.75, BB raises to $5, Guruman calls $3.25 (pot was $13).

Turn: J /images/graemlins/club.gif($16.25, 2 players)
Guruman checks, BB bets $9, Guruman raises all-in $26.5

[/ QUOTE ]

BB is calling (26.5-9) to win (26.5+9+16.25), so he's getting 51.75/17.5=3:1 to call. That mean the villain only needs 33% equity against heros range to call. That means 0 FE when it's obvious hero is on a draw.

[Peter Harris]

Is it obvious villain is on a draw? We don't know how villain thinks. KJ could play Guru's way, as could a small flop set (bad flop call if so). To say it's "obvious" Guru is on a draw is simplistic.

[relativity_x]

kj pots or 2/3psb the flop.

[corsakh]

Thats where all the people who do the donk bets are coming from /images/graemlins/laugh.gif Welcome /images/graemlins/smile.gif Start with stickies here and in SSNL.

[Peter Harris]

[ QUOTE ]
kj pots or 2/3psb the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Guru's new to NL. Maybe he makes a small donkbet. This is the problem with 2+2ers, not all players think to 2/3, 3/4 or pot all flops.

[CobraGoat]

[ QUOTE ]
Pot Odds 101
[ QUOTE ]

Stack sizes:
UTG: $26
UTG+1: $38.05
CO: $21.05
Button: $30.75
Guruman: $34.25
BB: $34.35

Pre-flop: (6 players) Guruman is SB with T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, CO calls, Button calls, Guruman calls $0.15 (pot was $1.1), BB raises to $2.75, 3 folds, Guruman calls $2.5 (pot was $3.75).

Flop: 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($6.25, 2 players)
Guruman bets $1.75, BB raises to $5, Guruman calls $3.25 (pot was $13).

Turn: J /images/graemlins/club.gif($16.25, 2 players)
Guruman checks, BB bets $9, Guruman raises all-in $26.5

[/ QUOTE ]

BB is calling (26.5-9) to win (26.5+9+16.25), so he's getting 51.75/17.5=3:1 to call. That mean the villain only needs 33% equity against heros range to call. That means 0 FE when it's obvious hero is on a draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

what he said! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Guruman]

its true that I was hoping that the blocking bet would also rep the K there since I called the big pf raise and it just looks like i'm asking for a push there. I don't think JJ or whatever will fold, but because his range is wide then Ax ui or QJ or whatever might.

i need to learn the blocking bet a little better it seems though. what's the purpose of charging yourself 2/3 or the whole pot when on a pure draw? I suppose that's why everyone advocated the pf fold and the flop c/f /images/graemlins/cool.gif

so to further the debate, if I fold this here pf (given that we're both deep enough for IO to matter) what size raise should I be calling? If I do call a smaller raise, what's the best flop option?

thx!

[HighSteaks]

[ QUOTE ]


so to further the debate, if I fold this here pf (given that we're both deep enough for IO to matter) what size raise should I be calling? If I do call a smaller raise, what's the best flop option?

thx!

[/ QUOTE ]

Playing draws OOP in NL is a tough gig, very difficult to get paid off and easy for villain to exploit your efforts if he has a made hand. The answer you will get most often is that you should seldom call raises in 6 max, you need laboratory conditions to do it, looking at those hands in terms of implied odds HU is dangerous, people are stealing etc, so the time you hit they probably just dump it anyway. I complete those hands where possible, raise them in position and dump them all other times FWIW.