CBS columnist bashes gambling, WSOP

[dozer]

link (http://www.sportsline.com/columns/story/10250057)

Thought you guys would enjoy tearing this one to shreds. I found a bunch of stuff that was unfair/inaccurate. Perhaps he's a moralist, or he's just a loser at poker. Or both.

[True North]

I don't even know where to start.

[ImOnWheels]

megadooosh

[dozer]

FYI ... there's a message board under his column. Just noticed it myself. Flames ON!

[Foucault]

The guy's clearly an idiot and too quick to conflate poker with slots, but his central point about the drawbacks of gambling (including poker) is an important one that doesn't get enough attention among the professional poker community, in my opinion.

[Matt Flynn]

He has a point.

[Bullrun]

message board time....

[KneeCo]

[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps he got rivered on day 1

[/ QUOTE ]

In all honesty, it's not a horrible article, of course poker != slots for everyone, but for most people playing the ME it does, that's why it's such a profitable tournament.

[skiller3]

WSOP = celebration of unmitigated degeneracy
Poker Economy = preying on impoverished, gambling addicts
$10,000 buy-in = way over the heads of most people at the WSOP

I don't disagree with this article in a lot of ways. Of course, this guy gives no credit to poker as being a game of skill and experience, and seems generally misinformed as to the fundamental nature of the game.

[sethypooh21]

Oh noes! People have gambling problems!

Of course oh noes, people have alcohol problems or driving fast problems or...

[Terrapin Soup]

I just don't understand what he's suggesting. Should they not hold the WSOP ME? Should it not be televised? "Gambling is bad" is not a new concept, so what's his point?

I think it's more a dig at ESPN's coverage than the event itself. And if CBS were televising it, do you think they'd have reacted so positively when Doyel ambled into his editor's office and said, "Hey boss, gambling is bad for people. I want to break the story in my column."

[Hawklet]

I think his point is:

No matter how much self control you have, no matter how small limits you play, you are helpless in the matter and you will lose all the disposable money you have access to.

[DJSHAD0W]

LMFA & ROFL @ 1000$ Life savings (in the US that is.... ).... if you suck that bad at life, gamboling is the least of your worries !!!!

Funny how he envokes the freedom argument for boxing, racing, cage fighting - NO PROBLEM.... but the EVIL POKER !! - this is where the freedom must end and the people must be protected from themselves !!!
Get a [censored] life you [censored] mother [censored] !!

[Dima2000123]

He's much more right than he is wrong. Out of all the gamblers out there, what fraction of them are people who play poker for a living, or at least for an intellectual stimulation in a financially responsible way? I feel like I have to take a shower every time I go through the casino to the poker room.

[lairnair]

The author, Gregg Doyel, is well-known for being a huge douche. I have flamed him on the message boards and sent him hate mail directly on many occasions.

Last year he wrote an article that said, in essence, that because Ryan Howard was hitting a lot of home runs the presumption should be that he's using steroids or HGH.

[Terrapin Soup]

[ QUOTE ]
LMFA & ROFL @ 1000$ Life savings (in the US that is.... ).... if you suck that bad at life, gamboling is the least of your worries !!!!

Funny how he envokes the freedom argument for boxing, racing, cage fighting - NO PROBLEM.... but the EVIL POKER !! - this is where the freedom must end and the people must be protected from themselves !!!
Get a [censored] life you [censored] mother [censored] !!

[/ QUOTE ]

Having $1000 in savings doesn't necessarily mean you suck at life. Maybe life sucks for you. You obviously would be surprised at how many people in this country get paid very, very little, even for things they like and/or are good at, or they are victims of circumstance, so if you insist on ROFLYAO, at least have the decency to feel like a jerk while you do.

[DJSHAD0W]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
LMFA & ROFL @ 1000$ Life savings (in the US that is.... ).... if you suck that bad at life, gamboling is the least of your worries !!!!

Funny how he envokes the freedom argument for boxing, racing, cage fighting - NO PROBLEM.... but the EVIL POKER !! - this is where the freedom must end and the people must be protected from themselves !!!
Get a [censored] life you [censored] mother [censored] !!

[/ QUOTE ]

Having $1000 in savings doesn't necessarily mean you suck at life. Maybe life sucks for you. You obviously would be surprised at how many people in this country get paid very, very little, even for things they like and/or are good at, or they are victims of circumstance, so if you insist on ROFLYAO, at least have the decency to feel like a jerk while you do.

[/ QUOTE ]

You got a point I did put that like a jerk - what I really meant is only having 1000$ life savings and then taking these 1000$ to the casion = sucking at life /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[NickMPK]

[ QUOTE ]
LMFA & ROFL @ 1000$ Life savings (in the US that is.... ).... if you suck that bad at life, gamboling is the least of your worries !!!!


[/ QUOTE ]

The majority of Americans don't have this much in savings...they are in fact deeply in credit card debt. Most people that do have a significant asset only have one in the form of their house, and the article points out that this woman's house was destroyed in the hurricane. Some posters on this board are really clueless as to what life is like for most people.

[jimmytrick]

Ignorant article.

[Terrapin Soup]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
LMFA & ROFL @ 1000$ Life savings (in the US that is.... ).... if you suck that bad at life, gamboling is the least of your worries !!!!

Funny how he envokes the freedom argument for boxing, racing, cage fighting - NO PROBLEM.... but the EVIL POKER !! - this is where the freedom must end and the people must be protected from themselves !!!
Get a [censored] life you [censored] mother [censored] !!

[/ QUOTE ]

Having $1000 in savings doesn't necessarily mean you suck at life. Maybe life sucks for you. You obviously would be surprised at how many people in this country get paid very, very little, even for things they like and/or are good at, or they are victims of circumstance, so if you insist on ROFLYAO, at least have the decency to feel like a jerk while you do.

[/ QUOTE ]

You got a point I did put that like a jerk - what I really meant is only having 1000$ life savings and then taking these 1000$ to the casion = sucking at life /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

That, I agree with wholeheartedly. Thanks for the clarification.

And I too was dumbfounded at the idea that a sport where people take each others' money is seamier than race-car driving, a sport where people crash into each other frequently, sometimes dying, in an effort to win the most money. I just can't take that columnist seriously.

Having worked in newspapers, here's what I'm guessing happened here:
-The WSOP rolls around and ol' boy decides he hates gambling. He asks his editor if he can write a column about it, and editor says OK.
-He writes the column, and it's full of holes. Logical errors, lack of focus, the whole bit.
-Editor decides, Well since the event is already here, it's more important that the column be timely than good. Let's run it, and if it sucks, at least it'll start an argument on the message board and drive up our online traffic.

[Bluegrass Poker]

[ QUOTE ]
Oh noes! People have gambling problems!

Of course oh noes, people have alcohol problems or driving fast problems or...

[/ QUOTE ]Alright. How much do I get for hitting the trifecta. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Seriously, I didn't read the article once I saw it mentioned that it was written by Gregg Doyel. He's a complete douche who is always trying to stir [censored] up.

[Dima2000123]

[ QUOTE ]
And I too was dumbfounded at the idea that a sport where people take each others' money is seamier than race-car driving, a sport where people crash into each other frequently, sometimes dying, in an effort to win the most money.

[/ QUOTE ]
Now you're doing some misrepresentation on your own. You don't win money by crashing other people, you win money by finishing first (or as close as you can manage). Crashing is just something that happens occasionally as racers try to accomplish that.

[DJSHAD0W]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
LMFA & ROFL @ 1000$ Life savings (in the US that is.... ).... if you suck that bad at life, gamboling is the least of your worries !!!!


[/ QUOTE ]

right , but if 1000$ is all you have to your name, what on earth would make you take it all to a casino? That doesn't seem like a gambling problem to me, but rather being just plain stupid !!!! (And I have a hard time feeling sorry for people that behave like that. So I think it is safe to assume that they make the same quality decisions in the rest of their lifes) And yes I do feel sympathetic towards people that get into tough spots by acts of god / accidents... but those are not the type of people that take life savings to Casions....

.... but then on second thought.... maybe that is part of the gamboling problem.. I really don't know anymore (and will just STFU)

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

What an idiot. Its not just that he equates poker to all other forms of gambling, its just that he assumes that the MAJORITY of people who gamble are degenerates who lose their paychecks.

I'm sure you could make the same argument about alcohol (College kids wasting time/dropping out, lives being ruined, etc.) The problem is, gambling is no more likely to lead to catastrophic bad behavior than drinking. smoking, or eating high fat foods.

Yeah, Vegas has a dark side. Stop the friggin' presses! Who with a brain doesn't know that? No mention of the downside of gambling during the broadcasts? Has he not seen the 'responsible gambling" spots? Are those pap and filler? Sure, but no more than the "drink responsibly" segments from breweries or the Surgeon General's warnings on cigarettes.

Bad enough we have holy roller politicians fighting freedom, now we have ignorant sportswriters, too. /images/graemlins/mad.gif

[Terrapin Soup]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And I too was dumbfounded at the idea that a sport where people take each others' money is seamier than race-car driving, a sport where people crash into each other frequently, sometimes dying, in an effort to win the most money.

[/ QUOTE ]
Now you're doing some misrepresentation on your own. You don't win money by crashing other people, you win money by finishing first (or as close as you can manage). Crashing is just something that happens occasionally as racers try to accomplish that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dude, that was what I meant. Not to split hairs, but I thought it was made clear that crashing is a side-effect of the effort, not its whole. If not, my bad.

[J.C. Gloves]

I agree with the 3rd to last paragraph he wrote, but I don't agree with his overall lumping of poker in with the rest of gambling. Problems occur, addictions arise but it cannot all be poker's fault.

[jimmytrick]

Mass behavioral manipulation in the guise of saving us from ourselves. The funny thing is that this guy doesn't understand that he is nothing more than a tool himself. We live in a society in which all of our institutions work hand in hand to protect and foster order and stability for the benefit of those who have power and money. Its pretty clever. Works a lot better than force.

The WSOP entrants are the type of folks who scare the hell out of the establishment because they are risk takers. The spirit of these people is remarkably similar to that of the founding fathers, who elbowed aside the British nobility for their slice of the pie.

Ironically, the decendants of those "patriots" are among those who now wish to supress the behavior exhibited in Vegas along with <font color="red"> any other</font> nonconformist activity.

Ever wonder why?

If there is anything I am sure of, its not to protect us.

Shuffle up and deal.

[stan1541]

So I looked up how many golf courses there are in America, 16944. You figure that its 50$ for a round of golf and most golf addicts probably spend 1k a year on gear and golf at least every week. Thats about 3k a year, for someone to enjoy the game or try to become a professional. At 100 addicts per course thats 5 Billion dollars spent on golf each year.

And I bet less than 1% of golfers have every made a dime from playing.

How is this a more respectable hobby than poker?

[SmileyEH]

"The freedom to gamble is like the freedom to smoke crack or inject herion."

Right on, I have no disagreements.

[idrinkcoors]

Interesting sidebar: the current chipleader, Jon Moonves, is the brother of CBS CEO Les Moonves.

Clearly Les should fire this employee. Just kidding. I'm a newspaper columnist, so freedom of speech rules.

Edit to give credit to poker biz for this info.

[PokeReader]

I wrote a big response to him about the lack of balance and completely biased point of view, as well as his total lack of knowledge of the subject he was writing about. Everyone playing high stakes is addicted or stupid? Then I wrote CBS, tricky to find email, this is it

http://www.sportsline.com/help/contactus

included letter to Greg, said how could they exercise such poor editorial oversight, to let a completely biased, one-sided hit piece with no-understanding of it's subject, and only one hazy statistic with no citation to support the main claim of the piece, that most of us are crazy addicts, and none of us are long-run profitable. That this was most disappointing as the piece was next to another on "How to become a pro", and it is those types of pieces that give kids that wrong kind of idea about how easy it is. There is also a king of blog, but they only seem to put up comment about how great they are, so I didn't bother.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Clearly Les should fire this employee

Huh? If I were his boss, I could only justify firing him if his column cost the company money. Sure he's an idiot, but controversey drives viewers/readers and viewers/readers drive revenue. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[Zetack]

[ QUOTE ]
He has a point.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, he doesn't. There's a good point that could be made, i.e. that even amidst the over the top spectacle / celebration of poker that is the WSOP we should still recognize that gambling addiction is a serious problem for some people and that poker can be that gambling addiction for some players.

But instead he's making this point:

[ QUOTE ]
Freedom to gamble is like freedom to inhale crack or inject heroin. You may enjoy it once or twice or a hundred times. You may be that one unlikely person impervious to its evil lure. But in most cases the addiction will eventually win.

Every day around the country, people -- regular people like you or me -- lose their job or home or car or wife or kids or all of the above because they cannot stop gambling. Regular people go to jail. Regular people commit suicide. Because of gambling.

[/ QUOTE ]

And that's not much of a point at all. I have no doubt that Vegas simply could not exist as a gambling city if it was only some rare freak that could gamble but avoid the life ruinning gambling addiction and that the vast majority of gamblers became life destroyed addicts. In fact, as we know, gambling addiction is the exception rather than the rule.

--Zetack

[idrinkcoors]

[ QUOTE ]
Clearly Les should fire this employee

Huh? If I were his boss, I could only justify firing him if his column cost the company money. Sure he's an idiot, but controversey drives vierers/readers and viewrs/readers drive revenue. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I meant that as a joke and changed my post.

[jogsxyz]

Doyel(the author) is an anagram for Doyle.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

[ QUOTE ]
He has a point.

[/ QUOTE ]

He sure does. Right on top of his head.

[Foucault]

Jimmy,

Sorry bro but there's nothing transgressive about playing poker. I get where you're coming from, but these days, especially at the WSOP, it's an industry itself that's quickly territorialized by big money.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Clearly Les should fire this employee

Huh? If I were his boss, I could only justify firing him if his column cost the company money. Sure he's an idiot, but controversey drives vierers/readers and viewrs/readers drive revenue. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I meant that as a joke and changed my post.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough. &lt;sarcastic comment on your taste in pseudo-beer deleted.&gt; /images/graemlins/cool.gif /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[iversonian]

[ QUOTE ]
Doyel(the author) is an anagram for Doyle.

[/ QUOTE ]

No wai!!!

[Homer]

He writes for a site that offers gambling in the form of fantasy sports and has an entire section dedicated to poker. I wonder how he feels about that.

[Hawklet]

[ QUOTE ]
He writes for a site that offers gambling in the form of fantasy sports and has an entire section dedicated to poker. I wonder how he feels about that.

[/ QUOTE ]

He's probably thinking something like:

"I'm gonna write about anything that makes people read my stuff, even things that I don't know anything or care about"

[KurtSF]

[ QUOTE ]
Mass behavioral manipulation in the guise of saving us from ourselves. The funny thing is that this guy doesn't understand that he is nothing more than a tool himself. We live in a society in which all of our institutions work hand in hand to protect and foster order and stability for the benefit of those who have power and money. Its pretty clever. Works a lot better than force.

The WSOP entrants are the type of folks who scare the hell out of the establishment because they are risk takers. The spirit of these people is remarkably similar to that of the founding fathers, who elbowed aside the British nobility for their slice of the pie.

Ironically, the decendants of those "patriots" are among those who now wish to supress the behavior exhibited in Vegas along with <font color="red"> any other</font> nonconformist activity.

Ever wonder why?

If there is anything I am sure of, its not to protect us.

Shuffle up and deal.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hit the nail on the head.

I also agree with Smiley.

[True North]

Just as correct, perhaps more so:

[ QUOTE ]
Freedom to drink is like freedom to inhale crack or inject heroin. You may enjoy it once or twice or a hundred times. You may be that one unlikely person impervious to its evil lure. But in most cases the addiction will eventually win.

Every day around the country, people -- regular people like you or me -- lose their job or home or car or wife or kids or all of the above because they cannot stop drinking. Regular people go to jail. Regular people commit suicide. Because of drinking.

[/ QUOTE ]

You could replace "gambling" with a hundred other words, too. Where are the author's righteous crusades against all those things?

[AngusThermopyle]

So tell me class, what does an attention whore crave?

[MicroBob]

[ QUOTE ]


You got a point I did put that like a jerk - what I really meant is only having 1000$ life savings and then taking these 1000$ to the casion = sucking at life /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[/ QUOTE ]


Happens ALL the time.

I dealt blackjack and a pretty small-time low-stakes casino for a few months.
Some regulars would come in and put down what is obviously their rent-money and either try to double-it or bust-out.

Not difficult to connect the dots when the player is still wearing their uniform from McDonald's or the grocery store, goes to the cage to cash their paycheck, and then loses it all and slinks off for home.

It's pretty damn sad and it goes on all the time.

I'll leave the discussion for how different it is or isn't in poker to you guys.

Just responding to the part about the losers-in-life blowing through their rent-money or $1k life-savings: Not at all uncommon.

[jimmytrick]

[ QUOTE ]
Jimmy,

Sorry bro but there's nothing transgressive about playing poker. I get where you're coming from, but these days, especially at the WSOP, it's an industry itself that's quickly territorialized by big money.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah, poker is not accepted by the religious right. The powers that be both pander to and exploit the RR. The fact that monied interests have a stake in casinos is not relevant, as it is common for them to both attack and profit from an activity at the same time.

The point I am trying to make is that this is a long term struggle for true freedom and the best way to win it is to expose it for what it really is. Manipulation of the masses for the benefit of the rich and powerful. If they can control our behavior through the guise of protecting ourselves from our selves and the gospel of political correctness then they win.

Support freedom, spit on a sidewalk today.

[dwf76]

Maybe he's just bitter at everyone who wants to have fun, perhaps he can't get it up.

Eitherway he's a misinformed,biased idiot.

[Quicksilvre]

[ QUOTE ]
Just as correct, perhaps more so:

[ QUOTE ]
Freedom to drink is like freedom to inhale crack or inject heroin. You may enjoy it once or twice or a hundred times. You may be that one unlikely person impervious to its evil lure. But in most cases the addiction will eventually win.

Every day around the country, people -- regular people like you or me -- lose their job or home or car or wife or kids or all of the above because they cannot stop drinking. Regular people go to jail. Regular people commit suicide. Because of drinking.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

I certainly wouldn't say that this is "more so" because of the bolded sentence. Most people who drink aren't alcoholics. The same could be said about poker players.

I know numerous people, about my age (college) who stopped playing poker simply because they got sick of it, or because they lost their initial $40 investment and didn't feel like reloading.

I do wonder how many gamblers are real gambling addicts. If one assumes that 10% of a population gambles at least a few times a year (which sounds low, but we'll be on the safe side), and 1% are gambling addicts (which is the actual estimate I hear), then 10% of the at-risk population is addicted to gambling. It makes the alcohol comparison look apt.

The most vexing thing about this column, to me, is this: the author makes straw-man arguments about something that has negative consequences for some people. Those who don't experience the negative consequences produce a backlash (this thread). Meanwhile, if the columnist just says, "Look, I realize plenty of people can play poker and be OK, but let's remember those who get in trouble through gambling," then it might actually do something for those who are addicted to gambling.

[JMX]

Pisses me off when people mix poker with slot machines and reckless gambling.

[suzzer99]

[ QUOTE ]
Pisses me off when people mix poker with slot machines and reckless gambling.

[/ QUOTE ]

Problem is for the people we make $$ off of, it's not that different.

[SGspecial]

[ QUOTE ]
The author, Gregg Doyel, is well-known for being a huge douche. I have flamed him on the message boards and sent him hate mail directly on many occasions.

Last year he wrote an article that said, in essence, that because Ryan Howard was hitting a lot of home runs the presumption should be that he's using steroids or HGH.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's interesting how people's opinion changes based on which teat they are suckling at. The author is making his living (in part) off of bashing a tremendously talented and classy guy like Ryan Howard. Howard, in return, is being exploited by his employers, the Phila. Phillies, because even though he was tremendously talented, he spent 1.5 seasons stuck in the minor leagues while Jim Thome played 1B for the Phillies and management refused to trade him. As a consequence, instead of being arbitration eligible after his MVP season last year (and ROY season in '05), he had no recourse but to accept a 1 year extension at &lt;$1M, probably the lowest salary for a reigning MVP since 1982 or something.

Meanwhile, the Phillies fans have it even worse. I mean, many of them are probably clinically "addicted" to baseball, shelling out $1000's of dollars a year on tickets, parking, concession, merchandise, etc. to feed their addiction. It's just these kind of sports crazed losers that will frequent said douche's website to read his articles. Of course, the house in this "game" has about the biggest edge anywhere as the Phillies are poised to lose the 10,000th game in their ignominious history and have won a championship exactly once in 125 years. Hell, even Hal Fowler could have won another bracelet if given that long.

[NHFunkii]

[ QUOTE ]
The guy's clearly an idiot and too quick to conflate poker with slots, but his central point about the drawbacks of gambling (including poker) is an important one that doesn't get enough attention among the professional poker community, in my opinion.

[/ QUOTE ]

agreed
if you guys think poker isnt just as capable of ruining lives as any other form of gambling, you're wrong
of course I vehemently oppose banning it just because of that and I disagree with the main point of his article, but that doesn't mean that gambling addiction isnt a huge problem and that poker doesnt contribute to it.

[fees]

[ QUOTE ]
He has a point.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah but its silly, wreckless, and causes more trouble than the alternative

[SGspecial]

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe he's just bitter at everyone who wants to have fun, perhaps he can't get it up.

Eitherway he's a misinformed,biased idiot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I bet someone just stole his crack pipe.

[dogsballs]

Who's teh editor; I think they shoulda caught this one...

[ QUOTE ]
Beginning with Moneymaker, an accountant, four of the past five WSOP winners have been relative novices, people who don't gamble for a living.

[/ QUOTE ]

ummm....Money, Fossil, Hachem, Gold....who's that 5th one since moneymaker..?

[Jeff76]

I wonder if most of the people who plunk down $10,000 do it for the experience or the chance to win big monies? I mean, I realize no one would play if it weren't for the money, but I'd think a lot of the losing players who are in this view it as a chance to have "the experience" more than a chance to win big.

At any rate, poker can ruin people's lives, especially those with a gambling addiction. It is true that for most people it isn't a skill game- they have to get lucky to win. I don't have a problem with talking about that or discussing what might be done to lessen that effect, but if we're going to discuss poker in this light, you have to include other similar activities like day trading. It irks me that people are so outspoken about poker because it's so easy to lose a lot of money fast while there are plenty of slick advertisements on TV for non-skillful investors to do the same thing.

[PokeReader]

My biggest problem is that he essentially says that no one can gamble without getting addicted, which is clearly untrue. That you can't play high stakes without being an idiot. And the sum total of his support for this is a few antedotes and one vague statistic with no citation. Three percent of the country addicted, I guarntee you that was a biased study, but does he tell us where it was from so we can judge? No, that would let readers make a judgement for themselves. And zero support for this notion that you can't win at higher stakes and every at the WSOP is by definition an idiot. Classical piece of just putting weak evidence in to support the supposition you had in the first place. Editors must be terrible to not change it at all.

[KurtSF]

[ QUOTE ]

ummm....Money, Fossil, Hachem, Gold....who's that 5th one since moneymaker..?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, and the WSOP is ten days long, too. The article is full of idiocy of all sorts.

[Uglyowl]

CBS Sportsline Fantasy Sports = Gambling… Burn in hell

[NHFunkii]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

ummm....Money, Fossil, Hachem, Gold....who's that 5th one since moneymaker..?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, and the WSOP is ten days long, too. The article is full of idiocy of all sorts.

[/ QUOTE ]

the main event is at least that long isnt it?

[Nicok7]

Gambling, Poker, Drinking, Pot, Women, Cars, can ruin lives and so can many other things that most people enjoy reasonably. To say that you are a favorite to become a degenerate with any of those things is a flat out lie.
Next

[KurtSF]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

ummm....Money, Fossil, Hachem, Gold....who's that 5th one since moneymaker..?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, and the WSOP is ten days long, too. The article is full of idiocy of all sorts.

[/ QUOTE ]

the main event is at least that long isnt it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, but there are a few other events that make the WSOP a little longer than 10 days all told. Not to get sidetracked, my point was just that this piece is malarkey all around. (Not that problem gambling isn't a serious issue, but this article doesn't address it in any real way.)

[dcviperboy]

[ QUOTE ]
Oh noes! People have gambling problems!

Of course oh noes, people have alcohol problems or driving fast problems or...

[/ QUOTE ]

I have the last one....

maybe the last two....


OK, OK, fine, all 3

[gulon]

Maybe we should outlaw food because some people can't control their appetites?

[gusmahler]

[ QUOTE ]
Who's teh editor; I think they shoulda caught this one...

[ QUOTE ]
Beginning with Moneymaker, an accountant, four of the past five WSOP winners have been relative novices, people who don't gamble for a living.

[/ QUOTE ]

ummm....Money, Fossil, Hachem, Gold....who's that 5th one since moneymaker..?

[/ QUOTE ]

He probably meant Varkonyi, who's also an amateur when he won.

But I don't think either Fossilman or Hachem were "relative novices" regardless of whether or not they were pros at the time of their win. AFAIK, both had extensive poker experience before their wins.

[doublejoker]

They're in Las Vegas this week for the 2007 World Series of Poker, the visionaries and the dreamers, the desperate and the degenerate, the winners and the losers.


Actress and World Series of Poker player Shannon Elizabeth sure makes the game seem attractive.
Oh, wait. Sorry. Made a mistake there. When it comes to hard-core gambling, there are no winners. Just losers.

High-stakes gambling is for addicts and idiots, which makes the World Series of Poker a celebration of the sad and the stupid. Watch this train wreck for yourself. It's available live on the Internet and will come to free television later this year thanks to ESPN, which can next build on this viewer experience by televising a DUI checkpoint or maybe a crack house.

Some studies say as many as three percent of all Americans have a gambling problem, and that the suicide rate for pathological gamblers is 20 times higher than for the rest of the population, but you won't see any of those stories on ESPN.

You'll hear instead about people like Dan Nassif of St. Louis, who parlayed a $160 investment at an online qualifying tournament into ninth place in the 2006 World Series of Poker, which earned him about $1.5 million. You'll hear about 2006 champion Jamie Gold, who won $12 million. Those are great stories, but every lottery has its handful of winners. And then there is everyone else. The ones you don't hear about. The losers.

• You won't hear about the woman who called a gambling hotline to say she was at the riverboat casino again, her weekly paycheck gone.
• You won't hear about the man who called a gambling hotline to confess that he had embezzled $48,000 from his job and lost it at a poker table and now is afraid he's going to jail.
• You won't hear about the woman who called a gambling hotline in tears after spending her family's grocery money on slot machines.

Those calls were placed within six months to the same hotline in Indiana. Those callers are among gambling's losers. Every state has them. Every city. Your city. Mine.

But still we tolerate and even celebrate this abomination called the World Series of Poker, this 10-day advertisement for addiction and loss. Now listen. Normally, I'm not one to rail on about the evils of this sport or the dangers of that one. Let boxers box. Let race-car drivers race. Let football players bang helmets. Let UFC fighters fight. This is a free country, and those are legal, noble pursuits even with their inherent risk. Freedom is cool.

Gambling is not. Freedom to gamble is like freedom to inhale crack or inject heroin. You may enjoy it once or twice or a hundred times. You may be that one unlikely person impervious to its evil lure. But in most cases the addiction will eventually win.

Every day around the country, people -- regular people like you or me -- lose their job or home or car or wife or kids or all of the above because they cannot stop gambling. Regular people go to jail. Regular people commit suicide. Because of gambling.

Those are not the stories you'll hear about during this 10-day marathon of naked greed called the 2007 World Series of Poker. You'll hear about the sunglass-wearing and absurdly named Chris Moneymaker, whose victory in the 2003 World Series of Poker helped pull that event out from under its rock. Beginning with Moneymaker, an accountant, four of the past five WSOP winners have been relative novices, people who don't gamble for a living. Listen and you'll hear that this could be you.

You won't hear that you're more likely to become like June Williams, the New Orleans retiree profiled by the Boston Globe after she lost her home to Hurricane Katrina and then days later lost her life savings -- less than $1,000 -- at a nearby casino. You won't hear how she cashed her grandson's $279 emergency check from the government and gambled that away.

You'll see the beauty of Las Vegas with the winners smiling and the lights beaming. You won't see what happens when the cameras are off and the lights are dimmed and another degenerate has been allowed to gamble until his last penny is gone. You won't see how the casino that took his money bought him a bus ticket home, not from kindness but from self-preservation, because a loser like that would be bad for business. Get that guy out of here. Look -- here comes another one to take his place.

They're coming at a faster and faster pace, if the World Series of Poker is an accurate reflection. This thing started as a quaint little lark, a nine-player event in 1970 that was decided not by attrition but by congeniality -- a vote among players at the table. By 2003, it was still a humble event counting 839 contestants. After Moneymaker, it began to grow exponentially. Last year, there were more than 8,000 entrants. This year, almost 12,000 were expected.

A seat at the table this year can be had for a $10,000 buy-in, and I don't want to know what some of these habitual losers had to do to get their hands on the money. There were countless qualifying tournaments, which means hundreds of thousands and perhaps even millions of people tried to get into this event and failed. They'll be back next year, but with more competition than ever.

This is the world today. We'd rather not work hard for our fortune. We'd prefer to win it in the lottery or on a game show or at a felt-covered table. This is why U.S. college students are flunking out at an alarming rate as they spend their time hooked to a computer, trying to beat an endless supply of anonymous losers on the Internet.

And this is why that Indiana hotline recently took a call from a man wanting help for his wife, who gets paid every other Friday and then disappears for the weekend. She always comes back on Mondays because she's broke and has nowhere else to go.

Maybe some day she'll end up in Vegas at the World Series of Poker. Maybe she's there this weekend, just another loser in a city where she has way too much company.

[revots33]

[ QUOTE ]
High-stakes gambling is for addicts and idiots, which makes the World Series of Poker a celebration of the sad and the stupid

[/ QUOTE ]

at least he's not biased.

sounds like he just thinks gambling is tacky. any valid points about gambling addiction are overshadowed his obvious disdain for anyone who gambles, even recreationally.

[Bavid Denyamine]

You know, regardless of how misinformed, misleading, and mis-singthepoint this article may be, it's terribly written. It's pretty refreshing as an English major to see people getting jobs with such horrific writing ability.

"Those calls were placed within six months to the same hotline in Indiana. Those callers are among gambling's losers. Every state has them. Every city. Your city. Mine."

Degeneracy can be in your own backyard too! See how I make my point more dramatic by using sentence fragments?

Imagine. A world. Ruled by this guy. No hope. No future. Just. A. Nation. Of. Morons.

[adios]

................

[SGspecial]

[ QUOTE ]
Gambling, Poker, Drinking, Pot, Women, Cars, can ruin lives and so can many other things that most people enjoy reasonably. To say that you are a favorite to become a degenerate with any of those things is a flat out lie.
Next

[/ QUOTE ]

We should all become Amish, obv

[Brad1970]

[ QUOTE ]
You'll hear about the sunglass-wearing and absurdly named Chris Moneymaker, whose victory in the 2003 World Series of Poker helped pull that event out from under its rock.

[/ QUOTE ]

What's so absurd about this??? That is the man's name afterall...

[NajdorfDefense]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
LMFA &amp; ROFL @ 1000$ Life savings (in the US that is.... ).... if you suck that bad at life, gamboling is the least of your worries !!!!


[/ QUOTE ]

The majority of Americans don't have this much in savings...they are in fact deeply in credit card debt.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are wrong, in fact, wildly so.

The average American has &gt;$1k in savings.

[trevorwc]

[ QUOTE ]
CBS Sportsline Fantasy Sports = Gambling… Burn in hell

[/ QUOTE ]

How many tens (hundreds?) of thousands of people plunk down money for public or private leagues on CBS? I'm more addicted to fantasy sports - and I love to play teh pokah. What a hypocrite.

[Dunkman]

[ QUOTE ]
He has a point.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, he doesn't. Adults can do with their money what they like. If they're not able to play responsibly, it's no one's fault but their own. I was a pretty bad drug addict from like 18-21 and had to go to rehab and then started attending 12-step meeting to clean my life up. You know who's fault it was that I got hooked on drugs so bad? Not my family, or my friends, or the government for letting drugs into the country, or all the beer adds, etc. It was my fault. When I took responsibility for my life, then I was able to clean my act up and stop acting like a worthless [censored]. Drugs aren't inherently bad, I just can't use them. It's not them, it's me. We should be free in this country, and that includes the freedom to be a degenerate if you so choose. There are resources available for people with addiction problem, including gambling, so I don't wanna hear any [censored] about them not being able to help it. There's help available, they choose not to use it. I don't know why anyone should feel guilty about that. Is it sad? Sure. However, it's a big bad world out there, and people have to grow up and take responsibility for their actions.

/rant off

[Maulik]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
LMFA &amp; ROFL @ 1000$ Life savings (in the US that is.... ).... if you suck that bad at life, gamboling is the least of your worries !!!!


[/ QUOTE ]

The majority of Americans don't have this much in savings...they are in fact deeply in credit card debt.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are wrong, in fact, wildly so.

The average American has &gt;$1k in savings.

[/ QUOTE ]
I beleive in fact the first time in US history the average American was in debt, hopefully someone will clarify. Possibly a misleading statistic.

[trevorwc]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
LMFA &amp; ROFL @ 1000$ Life savings (in the US that is.... ).... if you suck that bad at life, gamboling is the least of your worries !!!!


[/ QUOTE ]

The majority of Americans don't have this much in savings...they are in fact deeply in credit card debt.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are wrong, in fact, wildly so.

The average American has &gt;$1k in savings.

[/ QUOTE ]
I beleive in fact the first time in US history the average American was in debt, hopefully someone will clarify. Possibly a misleading statistic.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even if the "average" American had more than 1k in their savings account, I'm sure it's misleading. I would guess that the fact that Gates and other billionaires are sitting on a fat stack offsets the many "average" Americans who are thousands in debt.

[StrayBullet]

[ QUOTE ]
Support freedom, burn a flag today.

[/ QUOTE ]

fyp

[Jack Bando]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
LMFA &amp; ROFL @ 1000$ Life savings (in the US that is.... ).... if you suck that bad at life, gamboling is the least of your worries !!!!


[/ QUOTE ]

The majority of Americans don't have this much in savings...they are in fact deeply in credit card debt.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are wrong, in fact, wildly so.

The average American has &gt;$1k in savings.

[/ QUOTE ]
I beleive in fact the first time in US history the average American was in debt, hopefully someone will clarify. Possibly a misleading statistic.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even if the "average" American had more than 1k in their savings account, I'm sure it's misleading. I would guess that the fact that Gates and other billionaires are sitting on a fat stack offsets the many "average" Americans who are thousands in debt.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe the median person is in debt.

[Mama Poker]

Jeez.
Simple solution-
Which 10 days of the WSOP are filled with "naked greed"?
Just avoid those days and play the rest.
Oh, and the circuit events should safe also. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[SossMan]

Sponsered byyyyyy:

Budweiser, the king of beers
and
Miller Lite...Cool, Refreshing Miller Lite...it's Miller Time









anheiser bush st.louis missouri

[grapabo]

[ QUOTE ]
Gambling, Poker, Drinking, Pot, Women, Cars, can ruin lives and so can many other things that most people enjoy reasonably. To say that you are a favorite to become a degenerate with any of those things is a flat out lie.
Next

[/ QUOTE ]

Whether or not you disagree with the author of the article, the vices you listed aren't similar in nature. You can blow through your paycheck in a gambling binge much faster than you can an alcoholic or other drug binge.

[Dunkman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Gambling, Poker, Drinking, Pot, Women, Cars, can ruin lives and so can many other things that most people enjoy reasonably. To say that you are a favorite to become a degenerate with any of those things is a flat out lie.
Next

[/ QUOTE ]

Whether or not you disagree with the author of the article, the vices you listed aren't similar in nature. You can blow through your paycheck in a gambling binge much faster than you can an alcoholic or other drug binge.

[/ QUOTE ]

Would take a pretty massive paycheck to survive one of my old drug binges.

[KurtSF]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Gambling, Poker, Drinking, Pot, Women, Cars, can ruin lives and so can many other things that most people enjoy reasonably. To say that you are a favorite to become a degenerate with any of those things is a flat out lie.
Next

[/ QUOTE ]

Whether or not you disagree with the author of the article, the vices you listed aren't similar in nature. You can blow through your paycheck in a gambling binge much faster than you can an alcoholic or other drug binge.

[/ QUOTE ]

(1) This makes no sense. Its merely your perception that gambling can "blow through your paycheck" faster than any of the other "vices"; its a statement that has no fact behind it. Some may call it anecdotal.
(2) I can conclude from this you have never been on a good drug binge. They can be pretty expensive.

[grapabo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Gambling, Poker, Drinking, Pot, Women, Cars, can ruin lives and so can many other things that most people enjoy reasonably. To say that you are a favorite to become a degenerate with any of those things is a flat out lie.
Next

[/ QUOTE ]

Whether or not you disagree with the author of the article, the vices you listed aren't similar in nature. You can blow through your paycheck in a gambling binge much faster than you can an alcoholic or other drug binge.

[/ QUOTE ]

(1) This makes no sense. Its merely your perception that gambling can "blow through your paycheck" faster than any of the other "vices"; its a statement that has no fact behind it. Some may call it anecdotal.
(2) I can conclude from this you have never been on a good drug binge. They can be pretty expensive.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know I can't drink $2,000 worth of whiskey in a night or smoke $2,000 worth of $20 crack rocks in a night, but I can very easily blow that much gambling in a night.

[Dunkman]

It's true that drinking JD you can't blow through that much money, but how about some nice scotch. I mean, if you're playing the penny slots you won't go through much money either, but people don't do that. I've never smoked crack (although I know some people who have blown through 2k in a few hours) but I've gone through way more than 2k in a night more times than I'd like to admit.

[KurtSF]

Strippers + blow + friends = $20,000 in a night. Try doing that at 1-2 NL Holdem.

Yeah, I know my argument is a strawman, but so is yours.

[luckyjimm]

Try this:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...=0#Post11144429 (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&amp;Number=11144429&amp;an=0&amp;page=0#Pos t11144429)

[davmcg]

"After Moneymaker, it began to grow exponentially. Last year, there were more than 8,000 entrants. This year, almost 12,000 were expected."

HA HA I love it when scumbag journalists come across a "fact" like, for example, "12,000 were expected, but only 6,500 turned up" and realising that it undermines their point entirely, ignore it completely.

[MiltonFriedman]

He writes that up to 3% of Americans are compulsive gamblers, yet he then says:

"You may be that one unlikely person impervious to its evil lure. But in most cases the addiction will eventually win."

Where did he get from 3% to 99% or 100% or 51% or whatever he means by that sentence ?

[MiltonFriedman]

The CBSSportsline site in question sells a download of PokerSuperstars II.

.... and I am sure the Big Banner about winning big cash prizes in betting on Fantasy Football never lures in "compulsive" players.

[tourney guy]

Gregg might want to consider:

1) HIs website SELLS fantasy football contests and actually does the stats for an additional fee. I submit FF betting is much worse than WSOP for total action.

2) His website's 'Daily Line' offers odds for anyone to wants to bet.

3) His website allows as advertising for the $300,000 first prize World Championship of Fantasy Football. No problem with gambling from his ADVERTISERS, which WSOP is not one.

In reading his article, it reminded me why sports journalists are the biggest jokers around.

If he is so high on the woes of gambling, hje can start by exposing his employer........fat chance of that!!!!!

What proof is there are 'POKER IS PREYING ON THE IMPOVERISHED'????????

What a abortion the world is becoming.

[gusmahler]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Gambling, Poker, Drinking, Pot, Women, Cars, can ruin lives and so can many other things that most people enjoy reasonably. To say that you are a favorite to become a degenerate with any of those things is a flat out lie.
Next

[/ QUOTE ]

Whether or not you disagree with the author of the article, the vices you listed aren't similar in nature. You can blow through your paycheck in a gambling binge much faster than you can an alcoholic or other drug binge.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why pick on just things that some consider "vices". A lot of hobbies are expensive. You can easily go through $20k on camera equipment, or home theater equipment, or model trains, or dance lessons also.

[Maulik]

To the gentleman who says, "I know I can't drink $2,000 worth of whiskey in a night or smoke $2,000 worth of $20 crack rocks in a night, but I can very easily blow that much gambling in a night."

Can you kill someone from the intoxication that alcohol causes when you're violent or decide you're okay to drive?

[Analyst]

[ QUOTE ]
link (http://www.sportsline.com/columns/story/10250057)

Thought you guys would enjoy tearing this one to shreds. I found a bunch of stuff that was unfair/inaccurate. Perhaps he's a moralist, or he's just a loser at poker. Or both.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think one of his biggest flaws is that he is guilty of exactly what he rails about. His main thrust (and an accurate one) is that there are many more gambling addicts - almost certain to be losers - than there are big winners, and this gets hidden away by those whose agenda is to promote gambling.

What he fails to comment upon is that there are many, many, many more recreational gamblers than there are addicts, people with balanced, normal lives who like to spend a bit of time playing cards. The money they lose (and most do lose) is under their control, does not impact their life and is fair value for the entertainment derived. The author fails to mention this largest group, hidden to further his own agenda, that gambling is bad.

The reasonable conclusion should be to not minimize the problem with addiction, but to provide help for those addicted while allowing the much larger number of recreational gamblers the choice of how to spend their entertainment dollars.

[Biggle10]

Isn't poker illegal in Indiana where all his example addicts are from?

[doublejoker]

Where are you getting these statistics

[jacksquat]

[ QUOTE ]
Isn't poker illegal in Indiana where all his example addicts are from?

[/ QUOTE ]

poker is quite legal in indiana....4 or 5 card rooms at least...that i know of.

sports bettors are 100x worse than poker players, imho. my brother, best friend in h.s., and several other good friends and aquaintances have ruined their lives betting sports and horse racing.

[SmileyEH]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He has a point.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, he doesn't. Adults can do with their money what they like. If they're not able to play responsibly, it's no one's fault but their own. I was a pretty bad drug addict from like 18-21 and had to go to rehab and then started attending 12-step meeting to clean my life up. You know who's fault it was that I got hooked on drugs so bad? Not my family, or my friends, or the government for letting drugs into the country, or all the beer adds, etc. It was my fault. When I took responsibility for my life, then I was able to clean my act up and stop acting like a worthless [censored]. Drugs aren't inherently bad, I just can't use them. It's not them, it's me. We should be free in this country, and that includes the freedom to be a degenerate if you so choose. There are resources available for people with addiction problem, including gambling, so I don't wanna hear any [censored] about them not being able to help it. There's help available, they choose not to use it. I don't know why anyone should feel guilty about that. Is it sad? Sure. However, it's a big bad world out there, and people have to grow up and take responsibility for their actions.

/rant off

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/heart.gif /images/graemlins/heart.gif /images/graemlins/heart.gif /images/graemlins/heart.gif /images/graemlins/heart.gif

[grapabo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Gambling, Poker, Drinking, Pot, Women, Cars, can ruin lives and so can many other things that most people enjoy reasonably. To say that you are a favorite to become a degenerate with any of those things is a flat out lie.
Next

[/ QUOTE ]

Whether or not you disagree with the author of the article, the vices you listed aren't similar in nature. You can blow through your paycheck in a gambling binge much faster than you can an alcoholic or other drug binge.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why pick on just things that some consider "vices". A lot of hobbies are expensive. You can easily go through $20k on camera equipment, or home theater equipment, or model trains, or dance lessons also.

[/ QUOTE ]

In addition to the points I made earlier, with vices such as drugs or alcohol, or hobbies(?!), there's no pretension that spending money on these things is going to result in you getting more money back. This incentive, unique to gambling, acts as an accelerant in the race to blow your paycheck.

[Howard Treesong]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He has a point.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, he doesn't. Adults can do with their money what they like. If they're not able to play responsibly, it's no one's fault but their own. I was a pretty bad drug addict from like 18-21 and had to go to rehab and then started attending 12-step meeting to clean my life up. You know who's fault it was that I got hooked on drugs so bad? Not my family, or my friends, or the government for letting drugs into the country, or all the beer adds, etc. It was my fault. When I took responsibility for my life, then I was able to clean my act up and stop acting like a worthless [censored]. Drugs aren't inherently bad, I just can't use them. It's not them, it's me. We should be free in this country, and that includes the freedom to be a degenerate if you so choose. There are resources available for people with addiction problem, including gambling, so I don't wanna hear any [censored] about them not being able to help it. There's help available, they choose not to use it. I don't know why anyone should feel guilty about that. Is it sad? Sure. However, it's a big bad world out there, and people have to grow up and take responsibility for their actions.

/rant off

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/heart.gif /images/graemlins/heart.gif /images/graemlins/heart.gif /images/graemlins/heart.gif /images/graemlins/heart.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT, baby.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Gambling, Poker, Drinking, Pot, Women, Cars, can ruin lives and so can many other things that most people enjoy reasonably. To say that you are a favorite to become a degenerate with any of those things is a flat out lie.
Next

[/ QUOTE ]

Whether or not you disagree with the author of the article, the vices you listed aren't similar in nature. You can blow through your paycheck in a gambling binge much faster than you can an alcoholic or other drug binge.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why pick on just things that some consider "vices". A lot of hobbies are expensive. You can easily go through $20k on camera equipment, or home theater equipment, or model trains, or dance lessons also.

[/ QUOTE ]

In addition to the points I made earlier, with vices such as drugs or alcohol, or hobbies(?!), there's no pretension that spending money on these things is going to result in you getting more money back. This incentive, unique to gambling, acts as an accelerant in the race to blow your paycheck for a very small minority of people.

[/ QUOTE ]

[revots33]

I love how this guy takes 3 random calls to some gambling hotline in Indiana someplace, and uses them as his proof that "You may be that one unlikely person impervious to its evil lure. But in most cases the addiction will eventually win."

LOL how did this guy pass his college courses? Has he ever heard of research or statistical evidence or fact-checking?

And how the f**k is Chris Moneymaker "absurdly named"? That's his freaking name jack*ss. It's not like he's a pro wrestler who made up his name.

[FireStorm]

1) This is America, the freedom of speech and freedom of the press still exist, no matter how badly morons want to take them away. The man has the fundamental right to pen this article. If you do or don't agree with it, that's fine, but people in this thread are basically going berserk and calling for heads b/c someone had the audacity to suggest that poker isn't the most positive thing in the world. Relax people, it's one person's opinion.

2) The actual point of the article is fairly well made. Almost all televised poker focuses on the dream stories, that everyone can become rich off a small investment, and that Joe Smith and John Q Public are such great players and etc etc etc. We rarely if ever hear about the losing side, the people who play 100 events and cash in 3, the people who overrun their bankroll to play, the people who cancel appointments and neglect jobs and family when they clearly shouldn't be playing. This is sort of akin to the fact that some of the know it alls in the cash game forums on this site constantly flame people in threads, but have been subsequently been proven to be among the worst losing players on XYZ site. Poker is unfortunately not all glamour.

3) This being said, the article is over-sensational, poorly worded, and contains very little hard analytical fact or numbers presentation. It doesn't make for a great read b/c it doesn't differentiate poker from slots/craps etc, and we only get vague references to unknown people with gambling problems. He also, as aforementioned, doesn't suggest an alternative.

[Lori]

[ QUOTE ]
You won't hear that you're more likely to become like June Williams, the New Orleans retiree profiled by the Boston Globe after she lost her home to Hurricane Katrina and then days later lost her life savings -- less than $1,000 -- at a nearby casino. You won't hear how she cashed her grandson's $279 emergency check from the government and gambled that away.



[/ QUOTE ]


[ QUOTE ]
Mississippi's gulf cost casinos generated $500,000 (£270,000) a day in gambling taxes alone and every single casino has been wrecked.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4202952.stm

Lori

[T-God]

Don't give these guys attention. Any reasonable person will read this article and see the countless leaps of logic he has made as well as the lack of proof of any of his claims. He's a retard who has managed to intimidate a webiste into giving him a job through writing aggressively. Just ignore the [censored] loser; he's either completely retarded and believes what he says, or he'sa miserable POS who has to lie to get paid less way less than a poker pro.

[FireStorm]

It would be fair to note after the last post that the author's key point is that very few people are in fact being paid more than he is, and that the term "poker pro" applies to about 5% of the field.

[T-God]

But it applies to me!!!

[aislephive]

[ QUOTE ]

2) The actual point of the article is fairly well made. Almost all televised poker focuses on the dream stories, that everyone can become rich off a small investment, and that Joe Smith and John Q Public are such great players and etc etc etc. We rarely if ever hear about the losing side, the people who play 100 events and cash in 3, the people who overrun their bankroll to play, the people who cancel appointments and neglect jobs and family when they clearly shouldn't be playing. This is sort of akin to the fact that some of the know it alls in the cash game forums on this site constantly flame people in threads, but have been subsequently been proven to be among the worst losing players on XYZ site. Poker is unfortunately not all glamour.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure this is true, but at the same time the current "cinderella stories" aren't really that great or help prove poker's legitimacy. Chris Moneymaker overcame all odds, beat a table full of mostly pros at the final table including one of the most feared players in the event HU to win it all. This just adds to the "luck" mystique in poker where people look at Moneymaker and say to themselves, "well damn I could do that!". While it's good for poker in the sense that it brings more players into the game who think they have as good of a shot as anybody else, it's also bad in that people who don't play poker and are just overall uneducated will immediately look at poker as a game of luck. But imagine if the stories of players like CTS and Aba were widely publicized as well as the entire world of the consistent winning online players. I have a feeling the way poker is looked at by randoms would change dramatically as well as change a lot of peoples opinion on the anti-poker or neutral side.

[tpir]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
High-stakes gambling is for addicts and idiots, which makes the World Series of Poker a celebration of the sad and the stupid

[/ QUOTE ]

at least he's not biased.

sounds like he just thinks gambling is tacky. any valid points about gambling addiction are overshadowed his obvious disdain for anyone who gambles, even recreationally.

[/ QUOTE ]
qft.

i have a hard time understanding why this person would be employed as a columnist... unless being biased and polemic is his shtick or whatever.

[Cactus Jack]

Some people do suffer from an addiction. Many, many more people suffer from poor writing. I lost too many minutes of my life reading his column and the responses.

I think piss-poor writing should be illegal. Those who engage in it for profit should be jailed. The worst offenders, such as the columnist in question and the writer of this post, should both be put to death, immediately.

[UtzChips]

[ QUOTE ]
LMFA &amp; ROFL @ 1000$ Life savings (in the US that is.... ).... if you suck that bad at life, gamboling is the least of your worries !!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

That's cold.

[UtzChips]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
LMFA &amp; ROFL @ 1000$ Life savings (in the US that is.... ).... if you suck that bad at life, gamboling is the least of your worries !!!!


[/ QUOTE ]

right , but if 1000$ is all you have to your name, what on earth would make you take it all to a casino? That doesn't seem like a gambling problem to me, but rather being just plain stupid !!!! (And I have a hard time feeling sorry for people that behave like that. So I think it is safe to assume that they make the same quality decisions in the rest of their lifes) And yes I do feel sympathetic towards people that get into tough spots by acts of god / accidents... but those are not the type of people that take life savings to Casions....

.... but then on second thought.... maybe that is part of the gamboling problem.. I really don't know anymore (and will just STFU)

[/ QUOTE ]


How many times has Matusow won big &amp; gone bust, having to borrow to pay the rent? I've lost count.

How hard is it to open up a poker site and find someone who is spewing off the remainder of his/her bankroll while on tilt?

Is it my imagination, or do the poker books tell us to seek out the weak and pounce on those who are on tilt? Steer away from the tough games and seek the meek.


That is why, on High Stakes Poker, players paid Matusow 5k to not leave. That is why, the others don't whine when Farha goes on a run, as they know it's coming back sooner or later.

Some are sicker than others. I guess when Farha stated in 2003 that he needed to win against Moneymaker to break even for the trip, that was cool, since he's a millionaire and can afford it.

If you dress really nice, look cool rolling a cigarette in your mouth and drop 2.5m, that's cool.

But if you're on welfare, and spend $20 a month on lottery tickets, as that's the only way out of the gutter, cause you were born to a crack head mother and have limited skills with a low I.Q., well that's sick and disgusting.

[KurtSF]

Rich people can do what they want. Poor people have to do what rich people say. Did I miss anything?

[chucksim]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with the 3rd to last paragraph he wrote, but I don't agree with his overall lumping of poker in with the rest of gambling. Problems occur, addictions arise but it cannot all be poker's fault.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah. If he has a problem, he can also look at the slots and the pit games that are, by definition, IMPOSSIBLE to win at. Even though most don't have the skill to win at poker either, at least the game isn't rigged against you.

Granted we don't have a World Series of Slots and the associated spectacle, but without a doubt a vast majority of gambling's major losers dumped their cash at those games.

[UtzChips]

[ QUOTE ]
Rich people can do what they want. Poor people have to do what rich people say. Did I miss anything?

[/ QUOTE ]

You missed the fact that a lot of us put our heros on a pedestal. Point in case: Gus calling all in this year with 22. It's the call of the tournament. He's here to win and not many have the ballz to call with what he had.....

Oh really? 2003. Dutch Boyd goes all in on the flop, that is all med/low numbered cards. His lone opponent struggles with the decision and finally calls.

Boyd turns over KQ.
Moneymaker turns over a medium pocket pair.

Can you find a thread on 2+2 on how brilliant of a call that was? Of course not, there is no way Moneymaker could possibly be better than us and be able to read Boyd that well AND have the ballz (that the majority of us wouldn't have) to call.

I'm not knocking the call by Gus. I would love to see Gus at the final table. I'm just saying I haven't seen anything negative about the play posted.

Then there is the guy who posted in this thread that said that after he walked thru the casino to get to the poker room that he felt like he needed to take a shower because of the type of customers he had to walk by......LO FREAKIN L

Like he got a breath of fresh air once inside the poker room. Not unless it was an enclosed high stakes room.

[NajdorfDefense]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
LMFA &amp; ROFL @ 1000$ Life savings (in the US that is.... ).... if you suck that bad at life, gamboling is the least of your worries !!!!


[/ QUOTE ]

The majority of Americans don't have this much in savings...they are in fact deeply in credit card debt.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are wrong, in fact, wildly so.

The average American has &gt;$1k in savings.

[/ QUOTE ]

I beleive in fact the first time in US history the average American was in debt, hopefully someone will clarify. Possibly a misleading statistic.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sigh, the economic ignorance of a typical 2p2er, and belief nonetheless that they know everything about everything never ceases to amaze.

The Federal Reserve's Report on U.S. Family Finances comes out every three years.
"The Fed said the net worth of the median American family -- the one smack in the statistical middle -- was $93,100 in 2004. Net worth, the difference between a family's assets and liabilities, rose a robust 10.3% between 1998 and 2001 and 17.4% in the three-year interval before that."

Also:
Median Net Worth of Americans by Age, [Survey]
25-34 $15k
35-44 $94k
45-54 $133k
55-64 $217k
65 over $200k

Only 11% of Americans have a negative net worth, 11% also have a net worth above $500k.

Net worth is assets NET of liabilities, for those unsure of the definition.

On June 7, the Fed released its “flow of funds” data on first quarter changes in the household balance sheet. It showed new records for household savings both in terms of net financial assets and total net worth.

'The U.S. household sector is showing rapid growth in most types of savings. At $29.1 trillion, U.S. households have more net financial assets than the rest of the world combined. By this measure, at end 2006 Japan had $9.8 trillion, the UK $4.8T, France $2.6T, and Germany $3.2T (end 2005). Broader measures including tangible assets (e.g. houses and autos) are even more favorable to the U.S.

In the first quarter, U.S. household net worth (assets less liabilities) rose to $56.2 trillion. Household liabilities rose to $13.4 trillion. Household liquid assets (deposits, credit market instruments, equities, mutual funds) totaled $21.0 trillion, a new record and up from the fourth quarter’s $20.7 trillion. The multi-decade accumulation in U.S. household assets and savings is a key factor in the economy’s sturdiness and strong long-term prospects. ' ~David Malpass

http://www.federalreserve.gov/RELEASES/Z1/Current/data.htm

dj, perhaps spend 5 seconds on teh interweb or read a business periodical or two if you are actually looking for statistics and wish to end your ignorance. They are quite easy to find.

[llleisure]

I don't have any desire to play a bunch of -EV table games even if I'm running awful at poker. I may take a break from poker - and go do something other than gamble. "Break from poker", for me at least, does not equal go play craps/blackjack/etc.

Seems like the author of the article fails to notice that all forms of "gambling" aren't the same.

Personally, I see slot machines as another aspect of gambling which I have absolutely no desire to participate in. Why anyone wants to pay money to sit and hit a button at a -EV game is beyond me. At least with Pai Gow or the like you can get drunk, it doesn't tend to cost much and can be fun to play with friends.

The author is lumping ANY gambling with any other gambling. I guess with regard to folks who do happen to have a gambling addiction gambling = gambling and it really doesn't matter what it is. But he's way over-sensationlizing and simplifying the issues.

Maybe in 5 years when I'm just a massive degen I'll look back and say "wow that guy was right its all evil and the same" but I seriously doubt it lol...

[Rant]

[ QUOTE ]
You can blow through your paycheck in a gambling binge much faster than you can an alcoholic or other drug binge.

[/ QUOTE ]

How about the stock market? You can blow your life savings there with the push of a button.

[wisehandpoker]

Just posted a response at espn (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/poker/columns/story?columnist=wise_gary&amp;id=2934465)

[TheFilmGeek]

Howard Lederer heard some quotes from the article and commented in the EI podcast.

link (http://www.expertinsight.com/_Podcasts.html)

[Vidocq]

[ QUOTE ]
Just posted a response at espn (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/poker/columns/story?columnist=wise_gary&amp;id=2934465)

[/ QUOTE ]

VNH

[yimyammer]

Below is a response I'm about to send, please offer any corrections or improvements so I can edit before I send it.

For the TL;DR crowd, you better stop here.

Did you do any research whatsoever before writing your story on poker or did you just cherry pick the information that supports your own preconceived bias?

Are you incapable of making a rational analysis of the evidence?

Casinos are not profitable because they thrive on degenerates and everyone who gambles is not a degenerate or an addict.

I suppose you think all black people love watermelon and chicken too?

You would never write something that outrageous, would you? Oh wait, you already did!

If what you said were true, every gambler would be broke and there would be no casinos because there would be no one with money to gamble. Casinos rely on the steady flow of responsible individuals who come to entertain themselves with money they can afford to lose.

Yes, this is not only possible, it’s true.

The vast, overwhelming majority of the people who choose to gamble do so responsibly. I would contend that people spend more money on a ski trip or a trip to a beach than they do when they decide to spend a few days in Vegas or time in a casino. There’s a saying, “you can skin a sheep once, or sheer it for a lifetime”. Look it up, think about it.

There are “beach bums” and “ski bums” that some would consider to be degenerates because they are not pursuing the typical career path of most Americans. Is that going to be your next witch hunt?

I agree that all people cannot control themselves and some people allow gambling to wreak havoc on their lives, but the same can be said of virtually anything. Hell, there are people that literally eat themselves to the point that they have to be cut out of their homes!

Surely you would never suggest we outlaw food or state that eating is the “celebration of the sad and the stupid”?

I contend that people that play poker are some of the smartest and most creative people on the planet, especially those at its highest levels.

I would also contend that a poker table is the most non-racist, peaceful place on the planet. No one cares what color you are, what religion you are, what gender you are, whether you’re gay or straight.

I’ve seen lonely old men forgotten by their families, too engrossed in their own lives to spend time with him anymore find comfort, camaraderie, friendship and a way to keep his mind sharp by playing this game.

You’ll see men and women who are Muslim, Christian, Hindu, Jew, Palestinian, Jordanian, Iraqi, Lebanese, black white, gay or straight, you name it. The poker table might be the most tolerant &amp; peaceful place on the planet.

The skills required to play well include cunning, guile, mathematics, psychology, focus, courage, patience and self control just to name a few.

How about looking at the game of poker at a deeper level?

Poker is a reflection of life. Like in life, people make mistakes, do stupid things, get addicted to food, sex, alcohol, drugs, work, adrenaline, money, power, etc, etc.

Is it that shocking that some people that play poker choose to allow it to ruin their lives?

Should we all be punished/broad-brushed because of the actions of a few?

You broad-brushed a huge number of people with a single stroke when you said”

"High-stakes gambling is for addicts and idiots, which makes the World Series of Poker a celebration of the sad and the stupid."

You could not have made a more misinformed and incorrect statement and you need to be more careful when you broad-brush millions of people. Yes, I said millions. Expand your research and you will see that this game is played and enjoyed by millions upon millions of responsible people from all over the world

I have played poker for the last ten years for fun and recreation. I have won over 5 figures with my hobby and even played in the WSOP ME. I graduated Cum Laude, passed the CPA exam in one attempt, taught myself architecture, started my own construction business and build some of the best homes in the country. Yet, when I am in the company of the people who excel at poker, I feel like an idiot.

Take some time to look into the people who play this game. You’ll find many people like me and many more who put me to shame that are valedictorians, hold PhD’s, senators, presidents, professors, math genius’s, etc, etc.

If you decide to expand your mind and your research, get ready to be humbled because you are about to meet some of the most brilliant and interesting people on the planet.

Here’s hoping your next story is more intriguing, less biased and more factual than your last

[Bidz]

[ QUOTE ]
Just posted a response at espn (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/poker/columns/story?columnist=wise_gary&amp;id=2934465)

[/ QUOTE ]
so awesome

very nicely done

[aislephive]

Great article WHP, couldn't have said it better myself (obv).

[PokeReader]

I suggest you also send a copy to the CBS Sports complaint section, I think this may get more weight this way, as I am not sure anyone but him sees his personal responses.

[wisehandpoker]

[ QUOTE ]
I suggest you also send a copy to the CBS Sports complaint section, I think this may get more weight this way, as I am not sure anyone but him sees his personal responses.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey guys, thanks for the kind words. It was pretty easy to write...amazing what an emotional response can do.

I've just sent an e-mail to cbssportsline informing them that I'll be urging my readers to boycott the site and station until either a well-researched article with an apology is posted on their site, or until Mr. Doyel is fired. I hope some of you will follow suit; strength in numbers and all that.

Gary

[PokeReader]

Just so the link would be obvious I am posting it again so it isn't buried in the thread.


http://www.sportsline.com/help/contactus

[yimyammer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I suggest you also send a copy to the CBS Sports complaint section, I think this may get more weight this way, as I am not sure anyone but him sees his personal responses.

[/ QUOTE ]


Hey guys, thanks for the kind words. It was pretty easy to write...amazing what an emotional response can do.

I've just sent an e-mail to cbssportsline informing them that I'll be urging my readers to boycott the site and station until either a well-researched article with an apology is posted on their site, or until Mr. Doyel is fired. I hope some of you will follow suit; strength in numbers and all that.

Gary

[/ QUOTE ]

What email address did you use? I had a hard time finding anything other than responding to the writer.

nice article by the way

[PokeReader]

The one posted directly above, (and did I say email, no I said link), which I reposted because I was a pain to find, here it is again, one post down. If you want to send complaints to the article click below, you will need to fill out a form, with your info and complaint. I think you may need to be registered with CBSSportline.com to send a complaint, but am not sure about that.

http://www.sportsline.com/help/contactus

[yimyammer]

[ QUOTE ]
The one posted directly above, (and did I say email, no I said link), which I reposted because I was a pain to find, here it is again, one post down. If you want to send complaints to the article click below, you will need to fill out a form, with your info and complaint. I think you may need to be registered with CBSSportline.com to send a complaint, but am not sure about that.

http://www.sportsline.com/help/contactus

[/ QUOTE ]

Man I read your post twice and for some reason I thought it was the link to the article, brain dead as usual.........

Thanks bro.

[Cactus Jack]

[ QUOTE ]
Just posted a response at espn (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/poker/columns/story?columnist=wise_gary&amp;id=2934465)

[/ QUOTE ]

Helluva column, Gary. Right on.

Three years ago, I was approaching 50, in a bad marriage and going nowhere. Aug 13, Hurricane Charley wiped me out. Lost my job and home. Poker saved me. I'm a different person three years later because I started studying poker. I learned a lot about math, psychology and myself. I came to Vegas a year ago with 2 suitcases and a cat. The past year has been the very best year of my life.

Those who write stuff like that have absolutely no clue what they're talking about. You and I know. Poker has probably changed many more lives for the better than for the worse. It's something even my own parents have trouble accepting, and they know me. Those who don't, would never understand. It doesn't fit in their preconceived notions.

Well done.

[RacersEdge]

Check this (http://www.sportsline.com/columns/writers/doyel) out - it looks like Doyel's bio got hacked.

[bigdaddydrew]

It's Gregg Doyel. He's the ZOMG I'M CONTROVERSIAL GUY!

He is a total d-bag, but he writes to get hate mail.

[bigdaddydrew]

[ QUOTE ]
Check this (http://www.sportsline.com/columns/writers/doyel) out - it looks like Doyel's bio got hacked.

[/ QUOTE ]

No. It didn't. It really didn't.

[davebwell]

[ QUOTE ]
Of course, this guy gives no credit to poker as being a game of skill and experience, and seems generally misinformed as to the fundamental nature of the game.

[/ QUOTE ]

How so? By its very nature, after you account for the rake for the house, it is a negative sum game. If you are winning, at least one other person has to be losing. We all know that in reality for every winner there are at least 4 losers and that's a conservative estimate.

What is the biggest skill at poker? My guess would be table selection, you find people that are worse than you and take advantage of it, then you brag about your prowess.
In many ways, it's like playing a pick up game of basketball at the college rec. You go with buddies that are all in good shape, played in high school what have you and then you find an opposing 5 that are a combination of short, fat, Asian. You wipe the floor with them and then delude yourself about your greatness.

[peterchi]

[ QUOTE ]

You go with buddies that are all in good shape, played in high school what have you and then you find an opposing 5 that are a combination of short, fat, Asian.

[/ QUOTE ]
WTF!?!?!!11

[Tito Jackson]

[ QUOTE ]
How so? By its very nature, after you account for the rake for the house, it is a negative sum game. If you are winning, at least one other person has to be losing. We all know that in reality for every winner there are at least 4 losers and that's a conservative estimate.

What is the biggest skill at poker? My guess would be table selection, you find people that are worse than you and take advantage of it, then you brag about your prowess.
In many ways, it's like playing a pick up game of basketball at the college rec. You go with buddies that are all in good shape, played in high school what have you and then you find an opposing 5 that are a combination of short, fat, Asian. You wipe the floor with them and then delude yourself about your greatness.

[/ QUOTE ]

If this is a level it's pretty good.

[toutatis70]

[ QUOTE ]
I suggest you also send a copy to the CBS Sports complaint section, I think this may get more weight this way, as I am not sure anyone but him sees his personal responses.

[/ QUOTE ]

LINK PLEASE!!!
I just sent the writer a very profanity laden messege.

[PokeReader]

This is the fourth time I have posted this link, and the last. If you do not find it on the page you are on, I suggest the back button.


http://www.sportsline.com/help/contactus

[davebwell]

It's partly a level and partly true. Let's face it, without a rake, poker is a zero sum game. With a rake, the only guaranteed winner is the house. How do you win at poker, you make fewer mistakes than your opponents and/or you exploit their mistakes for more money than they exploit from your mistakes over the long-run.

As for deluding yourself about your greatness, that is a case by case basis. As has been pointed out earlier in this thread, there are some truely remarkable minds that devote a great deal of time to this game. I myself have a PhD and feel dumb quite often at the tables or reading this forum.

Peterchi,

sorry if the Asian reference offended you. I play basketball for about an hour every Saturday night and usually play against a few Asian people. (I was thinking of myself in the fat group if it makes you feel any better). The Asians (that I see on Saturday nights) are usually fast and can run all over the place but can't handle the ball and play defense poorly. They are also short and aggressive which pisses me off because I am 6'5 and weigh 355. When I get the ball I get double or triple teamed by them and they are enough shorter that swipes at the ball usually end up with me getting hit in the mouth or nose. When I go out later in the evening I am either drinking with a fat lip, a partial nose bleed or both.