50NL - KK, WA/WB?

[MobbDeep]

Did I play this wrong?

All I know about villain is that he runs out of time alot and then posts blinds... (multitabling?) and he seems to be pretty tight.

Party Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.25/$0.50 Blinds - 5 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh))

SB: $139.64
Hero (BB): $113.09
UTG: $90.55
CO: $64.53
BTN: $32.32

Preflop: Hero is dealt K/images/graemlins/spade.gif K/images/graemlins/heart.gif (5 Players)
2 folds, BTN calls $0.50, SB calls $0.25, <font color="red">Hero raises to $2.50</font>, BTN folds, SB calls $2.00

Flop: ($5.50) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif T/images/graemlins/club.gif Q/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 Players)
SB checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $4.50</font>, <font color="red">SB raises to $12.00</font>, Hero calls $7.50

I figured this as a way ahead or way behind situation, so I just call.

Turn: ($29.50) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 Players)
<font color="red">SB bets $20.00</font>, Hero calls $20.00

Still looks like I'm WA/WB.

River: ($69.50) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 Players)
<font color="red">SB bets $40.00</font>, Hero calls $40.00

Tough one, but the way I played I have to call the riverbet, right?

Pot Size: $149.50 ($2 Rake)

[Nogatsira]

Yeah I guess you have to call it down the way the hand went. Maybe a reraise on the flop to see where you're at would have saved you alot of chips.

[TheRenaissance]

I like to raise more preflop OOP like this - my "rule" is one BB per limper + one for being oop. So I'd probably make it 3.5.

No big deal in this hand though, as you get position anyway. When SB cr the flop like that he either a) has a ten, b) has a Q, c) is semi-bluffing with the flush/str8 draw, or d) thinks you missed and is on a pure bluff.

You are pretty deep, so a tightish villain could probably talk himself into calling preflop with some hands that has a ten (T9s, JTs, T8s, maybe ATs). Hands that contain a queen seems less likely from this kind of player as he would probably raise AQ/KQ, and fold the rest to your raise (at least I think he should). A semibluff with a flush draw seems likely to me. A pure bluff seems unlikely, maybe on the flop, but I'd rule a bluff out after the turn.

When we look at the turn and river play, I find it very hard to believe a tightish villain would play any queen so strong (except QT duh). A ten seems very likely. A flushdraw is possible - I sometimes find myself caught up in these 3 barrel bluffs ("surely he cant call with one pair!").

But that is the problem when you get to the river: only hand that plays like this that you beat is a bluff. I fold river without a better read than "seems tight".

[relativity_x]

Folding kings is tough, but I think you can get away from it because there are only 2 hands that you're beating besides a bluff, and that would be aq/jj.

It sounds like villain is not the type to three barrel with air, so I can find a fold on the river because he's just taking you to value town.

Also, if you're going to continue in the hand, push the turn. Otherwise, I'd just fold on the turn.

[Chomp]

Good post Ren. Agree with most of that. Please post more.

My immediate reaction to river was: I really think/hope I could find a fold there. I think the rest is fine in line with Ren's logic.

[corsakh]

Mmm... I dont understand how does being "WA/WB" lead you into a call here. I am not saying its wrong in this situation, I am just saying its wrong in general. Deciding what to do, being "WA/WB" is completely irrelevant.

Say flop is 22Q and the action on the flop goes the same. You still are WA/WB but the only legitimate hands that a good tag can have that beat you are 22 and QQ. Now you decide if he is calling your 3bet with a hand like KQ/AQ or folding them. And how much of his range are these hands. Based on this you make a decision to raise, call or fold, not on being WA/WB.

As played fold river, its a clear ten, rarely KcJc or Jc9c.

[TheRenaissance]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, if you're going to continue in the hand, push the turn. Otherwise, I'd just fold on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm, I see what you are saying but we have $100 left on the turn - seems a bit reckless to shove 200bb against a tightish villain on a paired board with one pair. Also, just folding seems weak as he could play a queen or flushdraw like this.

[MobbDeep]

I agree, I think it was the way he bet that made me think he was weak, he quickly called my raise preflop, and flop/turn/river bets were also made fast, I just didn't believe him for some weird reason...

It turned out that he was on a pure bluff with A4, maybe he watched when some other guy bluffed me out of some pots, but it doesn't seem like it cause he was folding out of time pretty much.

The deep stacks made me a little scared, maybe I should have reraised flop to see where I'm at. After I called the flop raise I don't like folding the turn cause he could be bluffing or have a queen.

[TheRenaissance]

Note that this isnt a clear cut WA/WB situation with this board - we are a not "way ahead" of draws in my book.

[relativity_x]

This is really bad. You were extremely lucky in this situation. There is nothing about this play that seems weak to me. If anything, you should have made your decision on the turn. I'd refrain from making calls like this in the future.

[MobbDeep]

[ QUOTE ]
Mmm... I dont understand how does being "WA/WB" lead you into a call here. I am not saying its wrong in this situation, I am just saying its wrong in general. Deciding what to do, being "WA/WB" is completely irrelevant.

Say flop is 22Q and the action on the flop goes the same. You still are WA/WB but the only legitimate hands that a good tag can have that beat you are 22 and QQ. Now you decide if he is calling your 3bet with a hand like KQ/AQ or folding them. And how much of his range are these hands. Based on this you make a decision to raise, call or fold, not on being WA/WB.

As played fold river, its a clear ten, rarely KcJc or Jc9c.

[/ QUOTE ]

ok, I understand.
But I didn't say he was good, just that he didnt play alot of hands, I mean what good player lets the time run out several times and also post SB and BB instead of waiting for BB?

[TheRenaissance]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree, I think it was the way he bet that made me think he was weak, he quickly called my raise preflop, and flop/turn/river bets were also made fast, I just didn't believe him for some weird reason...

It turned out that he was on a pure bluff with A4, maybe he watched when some other guy bluffed me out of some pots, but it doesn't seem like it cause he was folding out of time pretty much.

The deep stacks made me a little scared, maybe I should have reraised flop to see where I'm at. After I called the flop raise I don't like folding the turn cause he could be bluffing or have a queen.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nh, but be aware that your river call is a bit thin against most opponents. Dont raise with the intention of finding out where you are - it will only make your opponents play better against you. Folding turn was never an option IMHO.

[MobbDeep]

[ QUOTE ]
This is really bad. You were extremely lucky in this situation. There is nothing about this play that seems weak to me. If anything, you should have made your decision on the turn. I'd refrain from making calls like this in the future.

[/ QUOTE ]

yup I know I did't play it well thats why I posted it, but what line is best in the future? rerasie on flop? as I said I don't like folding on turn...

[MobbDeep]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I agree, I think it was the way he bet that made me think he was weak, he quickly called my raise preflop, and flop/turn/river bets were also made fast, I just didn't believe him for some weird reason...

It turned out that he was on a pure bluff with A4, maybe he watched when some other guy bluffed me out of some pots, but it doesn't seem like it cause he was folding out of time pretty much.

The deep stacks made me a little scared, maybe I should have reraised flop to see where I'm at. After I called the flop raise I don't like folding the turn cause he could be bluffing or have a queen.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nh, but be aware that your river call is a bit thin against most opponents. Dont raise with the intention of finding out where you are - it will only make your opponents play better against you. Folding turn was never an option IMHO.

[/ QUOTE ]

ah ok thanks, so flop and turn was ok, but i should have folded river.

[TheRenaissance]

[ QUOTE ]
This is really bad. You were extremely lucky in this situation.

[/ QUOTE ] I think you are exaggerating a bit. I'd say this hand is -EV, but not horribly so.

Disclaimer:
&lt;--- Callstation

[relativity_x]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is really bad. You were extremely lucky in this situation. There is nothing about this play that seems weak to me. If anything, you should have made your decision on the turn. I'd refrain from making calls like this in the future.

[/ QUOTE ]

yup I know I did't play it well thats why I posted it, but what line is best in the future? rerasie on flop? as I said I don't like folding on turn...

[/ QUOTE ]

I never advocated folding on the turn. I said make your decision, which means push/fold. You can do this on the flop too, but generally calling with a hand like this isn't the greatest on a board like this.

[cooker3]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is really bad. You were extremely lucky in this situation. There is nothing about this play that seems weak to me. If anything, you should have made your decision on the turn. I'd refrain from making calls like this in the future.

[/ QUOTE ]

yup I know I did't play it well thats why I posted it, but what line is best in the future? rerasie on flop? as I said I don't like folding on turn...

[/ QUOTE ]

I never advocated folding on the turn. I said make your decision, which means push/fold. You can do this on the flop too, but generally calling with a hand like this isn't the greatest on a board like this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pushing is worse imo. Your are over representing your hand and will very likely be called by better hand. You can make the decision on the turn and say I will call down, you don't just have to push or fold

[TheRenaissance]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is really bad. You were extremely lucky in this situation. There is nothing about this play that seems weak to me. If anything, you should have made your decision on the turn. I'd refrain from making calls like this in the future.

[/ QUOTE ]

yup I know I did't play it well thats why I posted it, but what line is best in the future? rerasie on flop? as I said I don't like folding on turn...

[/ QUOTE ]

I never advocated folding on the turn. I said make your decision, which means push/fold. You can do this on the flop too, but generally calling with a hand like this isn't the greatest on a board like this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pushing is worse imo. Your are over representing your hand and will very likely be called by better hand. You can make the decision on the turn and say I will call down, you don't just have to push or fold

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree. Really dont see why we MUST push or fold.

[relativity_x]

Pushing the turn is not any good because only a 10 is calling, but calling is pretty bad too. I think you should have folded turn/river.

The best play here is to 4bet on the flop, and check/fold

edit: this was in response to cooker. I agree with what he said, but not about calling.

[relativity_x]

It's really not a push/fold, but with the stack sizes a raise is needed, and it's basically a push. That's why I think 4betting the flop is the best move. If he pushes we fold, and if he continues he's got to have tens.

I don't see how calling away 100bb on KK in this spot is any good.

[jimpo]

I don't see how this is WA/WB. Opponent could easily have 8 - 12 outs here. WA/WB applies when your opponent is either ahead or has just a few outs. I think I am reraising flop or turn.

[corsakh]

How can 4betting be possibly good? You loose more money than just calling down and loose tonns of value against quuen.

[TheRenaissance]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't see how calling away 100bb on KK in this spot is any good.

[/ QUOTE ]

No one said that. Not even OP.

[jimpo]

[ QUOTE ]
How can 4betting be possibly good? You loose more money than just calling down

[/ QUOTE ]

How so?
Hero raises to $32 -&gt; lost $27.5
Hero calls down as he did -&gt; lost $67.5

[corsakh]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How can 4betting be possibly good? You loose more money than just calling down

[/ QUOTE ]

How so?
Hero raises to $32 -&gt; lost $27.5
Hero calls down as he did -&gt; lost $67.5

[/ QUOTE ]

There are different ways to loose money.

In this hand, after you call flop

If he has a ten - you loose 20 on the turn, you dont loose a cent on the river. The fact how you played the river has nothing to do with how it should have been played.

If he has a queen - you win 20 on the turn, you dont win a cent on the river.

Say you raise flop -

If he has a ten - you loose 27. It can actually get funny here, since he will most likely check the turn, you check behind and then bet little on the river. So you probably loose another 15-20 there /images/graemlins/smile.gif
If he has a queen - you loose 20.

Bottom line, if you raise, no matter what he really has, you loose.

[Pokey]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How can 4betting be possibly good? You loose more money than just calling down

[/ QUOTE ]

How so?
Hero raises to $32 -&gt; lost $27.5
Hero calls down as he did -&gt; lost $67.5

[/ QUOTE ]

...if he lost. What you forget is that in a WA/WB situation, you WIN much more money by calling down when it turns out that you are way ahead. If villain is on a bluff, hero's flop three-bet wins him about $15. If villain is on a bluff and hero calls down, he wins about $67. The question, really, is "how often is hero ahead versus behind?"

Keep in mind that we've devolved into a blind-vs-blind situation. Assuming that hero is an aggressive player, he could often make this raise with a thin hand, hoping to scoop Button's (stupid) limp and SB's completion. After Button folds, that gives SB lots of room to play back at hero, with a wide range of hands.

Given the flop, I'd think my QJ was good against an aggressive opponent on this board and I'd bet it aggressively. I'd also go to town with a strong flush draw or an OESD. Even a pocket pair looks good on an aceless paired board.

If you give SB too narrow a range, you really screw yourself here. Sure, a T is possible, but so a Q is 50% more likely based on raw odds. I'd say hero is ahead more often than he is behind, and calling down wins the most money. Forget about losing the least -- we've got an overpair in a heads-up blind battle! Call down for fun and profit.

[MobbDeep]

[ QUOTE ]
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[ QUOTE ]
How can 4betting be possibly good? You loose more money than just calling down

[/ QUOTE ]

How so?
Hero raises to $32 -&gt; lost $27.5
Hero calls down as he did -&gt; lost $67.5

[/ QUOTE ]

...if he lost. What you forget is that in a WA/WB situation, you WIN much more money by calling down when it turns out that you are way ahead. If villain is on a bluff, hero's flop three-bet wins him about $15. If villain is on a bluff and hero calls down, he wins about $67. The question, really, is "how often is hero ahead versus behind?"

Keep in mind that we've devolved into a blind-vs-blind situation. Assuming that hero is an aggressive player, he could often make this raise with a thin hand, hoping to scoop Button's (stupid) limp and SB's completion. After Button folds, that gives SB lots of room to play back at hero, with a wide range of hands.

Given the flop, I'd think my QJ was good against an aggressive opponent on this board and I'd bet it aggressively. I'd also go to town with a strong flush draw or an OESD. Even a pocket pair looks good on an aceless paired board.

If you give SB too narrow a range, you really screw yourself here. Sure, a T is possible, but so a Q is 50% more likely based on raw odds. I'd say hero is ahead more often than he is behind, and calling down wins the most money. Forget about losing the least -- we've got an overpair in a heads-up blind battle! Call down for fun and profit.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats about how I was thinking when I was playing the hand.

[ama0330]

I can probably fold this river but I sure as hell cant get away from your avatar

jebus

[jimpo]

[ QUOTE ]
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[ QUOTE ]
How can 4betting be possibly good? You loose more money than just calling down

[/ QUOTE ]

How so?
Hero raises to $32 -&gt; lost $27.5
Hero calls down as he did -&gt; lost $67.5

[/ QUOTE ]

...if he lost. What you forget is that in a WA/WB situation, you WIN much more money by calling down when it turns out that you are way ahead. If villain is on a bluff, hero's flop three-bet wins him about $15. If villain is on a bluff and hero calls down, he wins about $67. The question, really, is "how often is hero ahead versus behind?"

[/ QUOTE ]

Argh. This here isn't a WA/WB situation at all. If SB has Ax clubs he has 12 outs, plenty of other possible hands with lots of outs, too.

[jimpo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How can 4betting be possibly good? You loose more money than just calling down

[/ QUOTE ]

How so?
Hero raises to $32 -&gt; lost $27.5
Hero calls down as he did -&gt; lost $67.5

[/ QUOTE ]

There are different ways to loose money.

In this hand, after you call flop

If he has a ten - you loose 20 on the turn, you dont loose a cent on the river. The fact how you played the river has nothing to do with how it should have been played.

If he has a queen - you win 20 on the turn, you dont win a cent on the river.

Say you raise flop -

If he has a ten - you loose 27. It can actually get funny here, since he will most likely check the turn, you check behind and then bet little on the river. So you probably loose another 15-20 there /images/graemlins/smile.gif
If he has a queen - you loose 20.

Bottom line, if you raise, no matter what he really has, you loose.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, ok. I thought your "calling down" meant calling down like OP did (since you did not clarify that you would not have called the river bet).