Joe Seboks blog post - Re: Ikes play

[RichGangi]

Comments? Ike?

$1k No Limit Hold'em w/Rebuys
I played the rebuy event yesterday and managed to get deep once again. My day started out pretty steady and solid, with me slowing chipping up from our starting stack, and up to about a high of 35k. From there I didn't have too much go on at all, until my last couple of hands. Pay attention my friends, as we are going to have some examples of what NOT to do...


I had been playing all day, but had just suffered a recent backslide, back down to about 23k. Then, with blinds of 400-800, I was lucky enough to pick up KK on the button, and brought it in for my normal raise of 2500 chips. I then heard the magic words, "all-in", from my opponent to the left of me. The big blind folded and I obviously called. The kid was this Issac Haxton character, who apparently had some success in the Bahamas this year. He sheepishly flipped up his A10, and doubled me up, as he wasn't able to spike an Ace on me. It was a bit of an aggressive play, and certainly one where he would never get action from a hand he had beat, but would always get it where he was crushed.


At any rate, I was stoked and up to just under 50k. Sadly, for me, it would only last one hand, as I immediately picked up99 on the next hand. I brought it in for my normal raise, and Haxton again moved all of his chips in the middle. This was obviously a much tougher call, but I decided if he was going to make a play like his previous one, then he might just be silly enough to do another rash play. I called and he flipped up his KJ, again, rather sheepishly. I had caught in another bad play, but this one left him still in race...


People, when you lose a big pot with a bad move, don't compound the mistake by rushing into another huge pot while everyone is going to think that you are steaming. Haxton did just this, and I was surprised as you don't typically expect players whose names you have heard to make moves this amateurish.

I digress,...unfortunately for me though, despite the poor quality of the play, Haxton was rewarded when he spiked a King on the turn. Even though it happened to work this time, you really should use it as an example of what not to do, as you are always going to be played with more after losing a big pot, not less. Make sure that you have the goods...

[JackOfSpeed]

Sounds like a couple of pretty standard re-steals to me. Sebok comes off as pretty whiny.

The only reason these re-raises might not have been good plays is Sebok is pretty nitty from what I know, so he might be a little less likely to be raising light in late position. Although I guess that might be a reason to try to push him off a hand...

[Coco]

[ QUOTE ]
.... I decided if he was going to make a play like his previous one, then he might just be silly enough to do another rash play. I called and he flipped up his KJ...


People, when you lose a big pot with a bad move, don't compound the mistake by rushing into another huge pot while everyone is going to think that you are steaming. Haxton did just this, and I was surprised as you don't typically expect players whose names you have heard to make moves this amateurish.


[/ QUOTE ]

So he doesn't expect someone whose name he has heard of to make a play like this but then calls anyway. Makes sense to me.

[ike]

The fact that he talks about how bad the KJ shove was, says 99 was a close call, and doesn't mention effective stack sizes pretty much says it all. He's a clown.

[pineapple888]

[ QUOTE ]
The fact that he talks about how bad the KJ shove was, says 99 was a close call, and doesn't mention effective stack sizes pretty much says it all. He's a clown.

[/ QUOTE ]

[SuperUberBob]

[ QUOTE ]
The fact that he talks about how bad the KJ shove was, says 99 was a close call, and doesn't mention effective stack sizes pretty much says it all. He's a clown.

[/ QUOTE ]

How deep were you when you made these re-steals?

[ike]

I covered and effective stacks were about 23k the first time. The second time he covered and I think I had about 25k but it might have been less.

[brendoh]

he's trashing you on their radio show too

[THEOSU]

ike,

you're lucky you've been on tv, else i'd be forced to believe sebok and assume your clownitude.

[aaronbeen]

Heads up match?

[mastr]

i will force this into action

[Syntec87]

isnt he right that both are a little deep to be making light resteals? I mean he obviously doesnt get it cause he thinks you think your getting money in to win an all in, when you just want to chip up w/ no SD, but 30 BB shoves on 3x raises... seems deep to me

[JJBuffone]

[ QUOTE ]
Heads up match for rolls?

[/ QUOTE ]

fyp

[SuperUberBob]

Well, ike took into account that Sebok might be making a move on the blinds and trying to take them down without seeing a flop. With what range of hands does Sebok call with on that first hand? I doubt Sebok calls with anything worse than jacks or ace-king (maybe tens or ace-queen). Sebok's range is much wider than that when raising from the CO. If Sebok folds often enough (which he probably does), then it could be profitable in the long run.

Not as big of a fan of the second one though. When you get caught up on the first hand, the jig is up. Sebok's range when calling you in that situation will probably widen now that he's seen that. That was proven when he called with the nines.

[pig4bill]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, ike took into account that Sebok might be making a move on the blinds and trying to take them down without seeing a flop. With what range of hands does Sebok call with on that first hand? I doubt Sebok calls with anything worse than jacks or ace-king (maybe tens or ace-queen). Sebok's range is much wider than that when raising from the CO. If Sebok folds often enough (which he probably does), then it could be profitable in the long run.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wouldn't a re-raise to about 7000 be just as effective? If Sebok was trying to steal with garbage, he'd fold to that.

[elmo]

I've watched Sebok tell his friends about hands I've observed/participated in where he played for stacks, and he couldn't even get the preflop/flop action right. I'm not talking bet sizes- he simply can't recollect the action correctly. I have no confidence in his estimation of effective stacks/blind levels.

[ericicecream]

The second one is a pretty large resteal to call with 99. Unless he is including 33 in the range.

I also think KJ is a bad resteal hand here on an overbet, especially given the previous hand's action.

[Jeff76]

[ QUOTE ]
isnt he right that both are a little deep to be making light resteals?

[/ QUOTE ]No, and AT vs a Button raise isn't really "light" anyway unless Sebok is really nitty.

The upper limit for a re-steal from me is 10x a standard raise, which is just about how deep they were.

[RandALLin]

whatevskis keep [censored] on him.

[Jeff76]

[ QUOTE ]
The second one is a pretty large resteal to call with 99. Unless he is including 33 in the range.

I also think KJ is a bad resteal hand here on an overbet, especially given the previous hand's action.

[/ QUOTE ]I think the push with KJ was a lot better than the call with 99. Obviously Sebok was a good enough player to realize that he was in a coin flip situation and call off his stack since Ike never has TT+ here. (Yes, this is sarcasm)

As for the timing, well I think the tendency is not for players to make a re-steal right after getting caught in one, so Sebok might give Ike more credit for a hand. Of course, he might just think Ike is steaming, which I guess is what happened. However, KJ is not bad at all against Sebok's calling range (especially if he'll call with 99), and he should have a lot of fold equity against Sebok's open raising range.

I do hate it when players call in a coinflip situation and then berate the other player when they lose/win (either: "you donky- I can't believe you took my chips" or "haha, thanks for the chips you donk"). Because calling in a coinflip with no fold equity is obviously >EV than pushing a coinflip with fold equity. (Again with more sarcasm, wich I'm am noting just because it doesn't translate will into written word).

[afadeyi]

op, nice post.

[stoxtrader]

[ QUOTE ]
The fact that he talks about how bad the KJ shove was, says 99 was a close call, and doesn't mention effective stack sizes pretty much says it all. He's a clown.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont need to read the whole thread or know all the details. Ike plays v v good. I didnt know much about sebok, but this helps.

[cts]

lol what a joke

[clowntable]

agressive call.

[illegit]

[ QUOTE ]
Sounds like a couple of pretty standard re-steals to me.

[/ QUOTE ]
If they both had 50K at 400-800 then in the 2nd hand his re-steal is for 60 BBs, and pretty awful.

[RichGangi]

[ QUOTE ]
op, nice post.

[/ QUOTE ]
I dont know if youre being sarcastic or not. My apologies if it didnt meet your criteria. I was just interested in what everyone(esp. Ike) thought of his post.

[kyro]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sounds like a couple of pretty standard re-steals to me.

[/ QUOTE ]
If they both had 50K at 400-800 then in the 2nd hand his re-steal is for 60 BBs, and pretty awful.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh, Ike already said eff. stacks both times were 23-25kish

[illegit]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sounds like a couple of pretty standard re-steals to me.

[/ QUOTE ]
If they both had 50K at 400-800 then in the 2nd hand his re-steal is for 60 BBs, and pretty awful.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh, Ike already said eff. stacks both times were 23-25kish

[/ QUOTE ]
Hence the word "if".

But when Sebok said:
[ QUOTE ]
At any rate, I was stoked and up to just under 50k. Sadly, for me, it would only last one hand

[/ QUOTE ]
I took the "only lasting one hand" thing to mean he was out on that hand, which would mean they both had 50K.

[mtgordon]

He just went back down to approximately where he started (20-25k-ish) after the 2nd hand.

The way I read it:
1st Hand:
Sebok - 23k
Ike - 48k

2nd Hand:
Sebok - 46k
Ike - 25k

Dust Settles:
Sebok - 21k and pissed off
Ike - 50k

[PickyTooth]

haha I was at this table. It was the funniest thing to see Sebok just sit there all whinny after losing the flip.

Obviously both plays are very standard.

[PickyTooth]

Oh yah and the fact that he says calling with 99 there is a tough decision is pretty funny.

[Sponger.]

Could he pick a more boring decision to berate?

[ike]

[ QUOTE ]
haha I was at this table. It was the funniest thing to see Sebok just sit there all whinny after losing the flip.

Obviously both plays are very standard.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ya it was pretty funny. Like one orbit later he looks over at me, still really pissed off, and says something like "You're that Haxton guy, right?" I said "Yah, you're that Sebok guy right?" He did not get less pissed.

[CaseS87]

Sebok has a tendency to berate plays he doesn't fully understand for a variety of reasons.

Can anyone shed some light on how well Sebok actually plays overall?

[Yaboosh]

Meh, I really enjoy his radio show. I don't really listen for the poker strategy content though. He is a pretty funny guy.

[pig4bill]

[ QUOTE ]
Sebok has a tendency to berate plays he doesn't fully understand for a variety of reasons.

Can anyone shed some light on how well Sebok actually plays overall?

[/ QUOTE ]

Lifetime major tournament winnings of $1.3 million. 5 WSOP cashes this year.

[JackOfSpeed]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sebok has a tendency to berate plays he doesn't fully understand for a variety of reasons.

Can anyone shed some light on how well Sebok actually plays overall?

[/ QUOTE ]

Lifetime major tournament winnings of $1.3 million. 5 WSOP cashes this year.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can we divide this by how many tournaments he's played/how much he's spent on buyins?

Seems like he's nitted his way (barely) into the money a few WSOP events thus far. I'm not terribly impressed since I imagine he's played close to 20 events (just a guess, but why wouldn't he have?)

[MaverickUSC]

5 of 20 cashes not impressive? And gotten really unlucky in a couple of them super deep? LOL.

Devo

[JackOfSpeed]

[ QUOTE ]
5 of 20 cashes not impressive? And gotten really unlucky in a couple of them super deep? LOL.

Devo

[/ QUOTE ]

5 out of 20 WSOP cashes on it's own merits is most certainly not "terribly impressive" (note the modifier "terribly"). Do you disagree? A lot of "cashes" involve a little more than getting your buy-in back. I'd need more information before giving Sebok any credit for being a solid tourney player.

I'd also still like someone to give a rough guess as to his total tourney buy-ins over the last few years. He's probably (heck, almost certainly) a winning player, but I doubt he would even be worth talking about if he didn't have a famous papa.

[shaniac]

Take a closer look at his results, Joe is quite successful and accomplished in tournaments. You might not like the way he handled or interpreted these hands vs Ike, but suggesting he's not a winning tournament player is ridiculous.

Edited to add: He'd be at least as famous as Jared Hamby, with or without the Greenstein connection.

[JackOfSpeed]

[ QUOTE ]
Take a closer look at his results, Joe is quite successful and accomplished in tournaments. You might not like the way he handled or interpreted these hands vs Ike, but suggesting he's not a winning tournament player is ridiculous.

Edited to add: He'd be at least as famous as Jared Hamby, with or without the Greenstein connection.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll definitely give him credit for being a winning player (In fact, I explicitly did this already -- check out my most recent post on this thread). But IMHO he's nothing more than slightly notable at this point in his career, and this "$1.3 million in tournament cashes" figure, which got me started on questioning whether he's a star or not in the first place, tells us very little. Neither does a "has cashed for 5 out of ~20 WSOP events" stat.

This blog posting, in which Sebok seems to be implying that he is an authority on MTT strategy, certainly would lead one to belive that Joe Sebok is kind of a big deal. On the contrary, seems to me like he's just a sore loser who doesn't have any interest in trying to understand the players he's up against (I mean, come on, the original posting can be summed up as "reraising with king jack/ace 10 is always a bad play -- my opponent is a nutjob for doing this." Complete tripe).

[shaniac]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Take a closer look at his results, Joe is quite successful and accomplished in tournaments. You might not like the way he handled or interpreted these hands vs Ike, but suggesting he's not a winning tournament player is ridiculous.

Edited to add: He'd be at least as famous as Jared Hamby, with or without the Greenstein connection.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll definitely give him credit for being a winning player (In fact, I think I even explicitly did this already -- check out all of my posts on this thread). But IMHO he's nothing more than slightly notable at this point in his career, and this "$1.3 million in tournament cashes" figure, which got me started on questioning whether he's a star or not in the first place, tells us very little. Neither does a "has cashed for 5 out of ~20 WSOP events" stat.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure what you're getting at--Joe has made televised final tables, is personable and enjoys the media, and has a famous father in the industry. The first two things are what create poker "stardom" (which, you might argue, is entirely absurd on its own, but that's a different issue). Anyway, without the famous father, he'd still be a "star."

[JackOfSpeed]

Shaniac-

I just edited the post you're quoting. Might be a little clearer now. This is indeed mostly about the original blog posting and how I thought it was kinda out of line. Any other questioning I've done of his tourney skillz is solely in response to two posters pointing out his "$1.3 million in tourney cashes" and his "5 cashes out of (roughly) 20 WSOP events this year, the implication with these posts (at least as I read them) being that he's really good at tournaments and should be given the benefit of the doubt in criticizing another player he's played against.

I don't care about Joe Sebok nearly as much as all of the words I've posted about him would indicate, however, so I'll invite his defenders to get in the last word if they'd like. I still think his blog posting was out of line (and showed a lack of understanding of what many consider a powerful weapon in MTTs: the resteal).

(edit: also, agree that the concept of a tournament superstar is somewhat absurd...so let me clarify what i was saying. i was using the term "star" in the context of someone who is very good at tourneys. from his blog and the comments in this thread, sebok either isn't very good at tourneys (note the very -- I still think he's good, just not very good), or at the very least is a sore loser

[shaniac]

I agree the blog entry was lame and dumb.

[JackOfSpeed]

I am a chronic post editor, so it's generally a good idea to wait at least 5-10 minutes after my posts to make sure I haven't completely changed the way I go about saying something /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[GSykes]

Standard Live Donk

[oscillator]

on a scale of 1-10 how sheepishly did you flip your cards over?

[ike]

[ QUOTE ]
on a scale of 1-10 how sheepishly did you flip your cards over?

[/ QUOTE ]

2. Maybe 3.

Edit: BradL or dplnyc may remember the hand where I cold 4bet 62s in the LAPC and Brad had AA. I would say I reached an 8 on the sheepishness scale in that hand. ReEdit: I also won.

[binions]

Meh. Some people are more naturally sheepish looking than others.

Maybe Joe should talk to Dad more often. I recall Barry running a squeeze out of the blinds at Tunica in Season 2 with 93 off. Barry is VERY aggressive, and I am sure is quite familiar with restealing strategy.

[Jeff76]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sebok has a tendency to berate plays he doesn't fully understand for a variety of reasons.

Can anyone shed some light on how well Sebok actually plays overall?

[/ QUOTE ]

Lifetime major tournament winnings of $1.3 million. 5 WSOP cashes this year.

[/ QUOTE ]I'd actually be interested in the perspective of those who have played hands with him rather than just looking at tournament results. I'm not implying anything about the results, but with people in the thread who have actually played poker with him, their observations would be interesting to hear.

[EWS87]

it seems like Joe has no understanding of a resteal whatsoever. On the radio show he called the A-10 a zero play...mocking ike saying if you get called your crushed and if you have him beat hes going to fold. He has no clue that you are raising it to steal his raise and that the A-10 is meaningless at this point. He's looking at it as Ike trying to get it in with A-10 against a hand worse then A-10 which is ludicrous and shows that Sebok really has no clue

[THEOSU]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
haha I was at this table. It was the funniest thing to see Sebok just sit there all whinny after losing the flip.

Obviously both plays are very standard.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ya it was pretty funny. Like one orbit later he looks over at me, still really pissed off, and says something like "You're that Haxton guy, right?" I said "Yah, you're that Sebok guy right?" He did not get less pissed.

[/ QUOTE ]


ike,

this was very funny.

[Todd Terry]

I knocked JS out of one of the prelim events at the Bellagio Five Diamond this fall. After the hand, he stood there and nastily criticized my play of the hand for a few seconds before storming off, which I thought was totally classless. It was also ironic, since he checkraised me all in on the turn at a time when I was already pot-committed and he was a 90-10 dog with second pair vs. my top pair.

[binions]

[ QUOTE ]
I knocked JS out of one of the prelim events at the Bellagio Five Diamond this fall. After the hand, he stood there and nastily criticized my play of the hand for a few seconds before storming off, which I thought was totally classless. It was also ironic, since he checkraised me all in on the turn at a time when I was already pot-committed and he was a 90-10 dog with second pair vs. my top pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

Um, don't you know who he is? When you have 5% of his tournament winnings . . .

PS Aggressive call, BTW, with top pair.

[pig4bill]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Take a closer look at his results, Joe is quite successful and accomplished in tournaments. You might not like the way he handled or interpreted these hands vs Ike, but suggesting he's not a winning tournament player is ridiculous.

Edited to add: He'd be at least as famous as Jared Hamby, with or without the Greenstein connection.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll definitely give him credit for being a winning player (In fact, I think I even explicitly did this already -- check out all of my posts on this thread). But IMHO he's nothing more than slightly notable at this point in his career, and this "$1.3 million in tournament cashes" figure, which got me started on questioning whether he's a star or not in the first place, tells us very little. Neither does a "has cashed for 5 out of ~20 WSOP events" stat.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure what you're getting at--Joe has made televised final tables, is personable and enjoys the media, and has a famous father in the industry. The first two things are what create poker "stardom" (which, you might argue, is entirely absurd on its own, but that's a different issue). Anyway, without the famous father, he'd still be a "star."

[/ QUOTE ]

You forgot "has a hot girlfriend".

[afadeyi]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
op, nice post.

[/ QUOTE ]
I dont know if youre being sarcastic or not. My apologies if it didnt meet your criteria. I was just interested in what everyone(esp. Ike) thought of his post.

[/ QUOTE ]

not being sarcastic. i think this is interesting.

[SuperUberBob]

I'd prefer making these moves with suited connectors. The domination factor for AT and KJ is too strong if you're called since high aces and big pairs are most likely to call your re-steal. If you have a hand like 87s, then it is more likely that you'll have two live cards going to the flop if you are called.

[EWS87]

i still say his call with 9s is hands down the worst play made by either player during all betting rounds in the hands mentioned...and its not even close

[SuperUberBob]

[ QUOTE ]
i still say his call with 9s is hands down the worst play made by either player during all betting rounds in the hands mentioned...and its not even close

[/ QUOTE ]

I dislike calling with 99 as well. You're in at best a race situation and very likely dominated. The only way to make that call is if Sebok put Ike on rags preflop.

[Ghazban]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i still say his call with 9s is hands down the worst play made by either player during all betting rounds in the hands mentioned...and its not even close

[/ QUOTE ]

I dislike calling with 99 as well. You're in at best a race situation and very likely dominated. The only way to make that call is if Sebok put Ike on rags preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am no tournament player but is it really impossible for ike to show up with 66-88 there? Not that the 99 is a good call, but to say he'll never be way ahead seems unlikely to me.

[RandALLin]

From what I heard from friends who played with Joe they say he has no idea what he's doing.

[MJBuddy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i still say his call with 9s is hands down the worst play made by either player during all betting rounds in the hands mentioned...and its not even close

[/ QUOTE ]

I dislike calling with 99 as well. You're in at best a race situation and very likely dominated. The only way to make that call is if Sebok put Ike on rags preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am no tournament player but is it really impossible for ike to show up with 66-88 there? Not that the 99 is a good call, but to say he'll never be way ahead seems unlikely to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's nigh impossible and unfair to pretend we can figure out what someone is restealing with after a failed resteal. The deepening factors include tilt, time of day, ocean currents, and least of all....reads on a players reads on a player.


Yeah against casual donk restealing with 33 is possible. Against a breathing meatbag who obviously isn't lost...who knows?

[Howard Treesong]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i still say his call with 9s is hands down the worst play made by either player during all betting rounds in the hands mentioned...and its not even close

[/ QUOTE ]

I dislike calling with 99 as well. You're in at best a race situation and very likely dominated. The only way to make that call is if Sebok put Ike on rags preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hang on there, Bob! If you were playing against yourself, you'd make the resteal with suited connectors -- in which case, the call with 99 is just fine. No?

[Bonified]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd prefer making these moves with suited connectors.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, it depends on the actual calling range. Against [99+, AQ+], KJo is 31% and 87s is 30%. It is true, however, that against [JJ+, AK], 87s does much better.

Axs is the hand that most people under-rate in this kind of spot because it's "always dominated". That's true, but it's also 30-33% against every single hand bar Aces. A5s > KJo and 87s against both those ranges.

As for Joe, this is pretty standard. I called him on something very similar in my blog about 18 months ago, in fact similar to the point that he left out the stack sizes which totally determined whether the play was any good or not.

[bigeasy59]

[ QUOTE ]
Meh. Some people are more naturally sheepish looking than others.

Maybe Joe should talk to Dad more often. I recall Barry running a squeeze out of the blinds at Tunica in Season 2 with 93 off. Barry is VERY aggressive, and I am sure is quite familiar with restealing strategy.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you listin to his show he is always talking about how barry calls these plays"zero plays" and sayes that only bad players do them.Iam not saying it is a bad play but I think he gets his view of this play from barry. he talks about how he use to resteal alot and the bear always got all over his case for it.

[FortWorthJim]

I didn't think Sebok's point was that you shouldn't resteal. I thought it was that a guy who just showed down a bad hand for a huge resteal should probably not make the same play against the same guy immediately afterward, because the resteal is much less likely to work.

In short, it was foolish for Haxton to resteal with KJo because he should have expected to get played with, and he shouldn't want to get played with with KJo.

Not defending Sebok's blog, though. Stupid to call a player out by name. Though it was probably +EV for Haxton. Sebok probably told all his friends and anybody who would listen what a donk Haxton is.

[UtzChips]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sebok has a tendency to berate plays he doesn't fully understand for a variety of reasons.

Can anyone shed some light on how well Sebok actually plays overall?

[/ QUOTE ]

Lifetime major tournament winnings of $1.3 million. 5 WSOP cashes this year.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wonder if that is better than the overall results of everyone who has responded in this thread. I wonder if it matters.

[UtzChips]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
on a scale of 1-10 how sheepishly did you flip your cards over?

[/ QUOTE ]

2. Maybe 3.

Edit: BradL or dplnyc may remember the hand where I cold 4bet 62s in the LAPC and Brad had AA. I would say I reached an 8 on the sheepishness scale in that hand. ReEdit: I also won.

[/ QUOTE ]

Cool! Looks like you've not had enough yet. Just like Binions' girl hasn't had enough of that banana yet.

[UtzChips]

[ QUOTE ]
I knocked JS out of one of the prelim events at the Bellagio Five Diamond this fall. After the hand, he stood there and nastily criticized my play of the hand for a few seconds before storming off, which I thought was totally classless. It was also ironic, since he checkraised me all in on the turn at a time when I was already pot-committed and he was a 90-10 dog with second pair vs. my top pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can place the blame squarely on Phil Hellmuth for players willingness to berate their opponent's play before storming off after losing all their chips.

When you have someone who has won that many titles continue to act like a spoiled brat, a lot of people feel a lot more comfortable doing it themselves.

[UtzChips]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i still say his call with 9s is hands down the worst play made by either player during all betting rounds in the hands mentioned...and its not even close

[/ QUOTE ]

At best:
I dislike calling with 99 as well. You're in at best a race situation and very likely dominated. The only way to make that call is if Sebok put Ike on rags preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am no tournament player but is it really impossible for ike to show up with 66-88 there? Not that the 99 is a good call, but to say he'll never be way ahead seems unlikely to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

AT+ 64 hands
KJ+ 32 hands
total 96 hands

66-88 18 hands
22-88 42 hands

[MJBuddy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i still say his call with 9s is hands down the worst play made by either player during all betting rounds in the hands mentioned...and its not even close

[/ QUOTE ]

At best:
I dislike calling with 99 as well. You're in at best a race situation and very likely dominated. The only way to make that call is if Sebok put Ike on rags preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am no tournament player but is it really impossible for ike to show up with 66-88 there? Not that the 99 is a good call, but to say he'll never be way ahead seems unlikely to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

AT+ 64 hands
KJ+ 32 hands
total 96 hands

66-88 18 hands
22-88 42 hands

[/ QUOTE ]


Are you counting KA and AK? Just wondering...for posterity.

[OvrTheTop111]

[ QUOTE ]

Ya it was pretty funny. Like one orbit later he looks over at me, still really pissed off, and says something like "You're that Haxton guy, right?" I said "Yah, you're that Sebok guy right?" He did not get less pissed.

[/ QUOTE ]

I loled

[JoeM]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Ya it was pretty funny. Like one orbit later he looks over at me, still really pissed off, and says something like "You're that Haxton guy, right?" I said "Yah, you're that Sebok guy right?" He did not get less pissed.

[/ QUOTE ]

I loled

[/ QUOTE ]

Really wish you had said "Yeah, you're Greenstein's kid right?"

[Ghazban]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i still say his call with 9s is hands down the worst play made by either player during all betting rounds in the hands mentioned...and its not even close

[/ QUOTE ]

At best:
I dislike calling with 99 as well. You're in at best a race situation and very likely dominated. The only way to make that call is if Sebok put Ike on rags preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am no tournament player but is it really impossible for ike to show up with 66-88 there? Not that the 99 is a good call, but to say he'll never be way ahead seems unlikely to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

AT+ 64 hands
KJ+ 32 hands
total 96 hands

66-88 18 hands
22-88 42 hands

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously I was responding to the bolded section

[Rob999]

"I like Ike, my bike likes Ike." The Fonz

[clowntable]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i still say his call with 9s is hands down the worst play made by either player during all betting rounds in the hands mentioned...and its not even close

[/ QUOTE ]

I dislike calling with 99 as well. You're in at best a race situation and very likely dominated. The only way to make that call is if Sebok put Ike on rags preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]
Wait, didn't you just advocate restealing with SCs?

[mastr]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sebok has a tendency to berate plays he doesn't fully understand for a variety of reasons.

Can anyone shed some light on how well Sebok actually plays overall?

[/ QUOTE ]

Lifetime major tournament winnings of $1.3 million. 5 WSOP cashes this year.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wonder if that is better than the overall results of everyone who has responded in this thread. I wonder if it matters.

[/ QUOTE ]

(this is ike on my roommate's account)

no, it is not better than the results of everyone responding to this thread. i'm pretty sure aaronbeen and i alone combine for more cashes over less tournaments than sebok. plenty of other players in this thread with lots of cashes too (shaniac and devo, for instance). if you count cash game play stox is a much bigger lifetime winner than sebok i'm sure.

[Syntec87]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sebok has a tendency to berate plays he doesn't fully understand for a variety of reasons.

Can anyone shed some light on how well Sebok actually plays overall?

[/ QUOTE ]

Lifetime major tournament winnings of $1.3 million. 5 WSOP cashes this year.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wonder if that is better than the overall results of everyone who has responded in this thread. I wonder if it matters.

[/ QUOTE ]

(this is ike on my roommate's account)

no, it is not better than the results of everyone responding to this thread. i'm pretty sure aaronbeen and i alone combine for more cashes over less tournaments than sebok. plenty of other players in this thread with lots of cashes too (shaniac and devo, for instance). if you count cash game play stox is a much bigger lifetime winner than sebok i'm sure.

[/ QUOTE ]

Plus if you guys are a little short, I just cashed in a home game rebuy tourney for $115.

[EWS87]

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't think Sebok's point was that you shouldn't resteal. I thought it was that a guy who just showed down a bad hand for a huge resteal should probably not make the same play against the same guy immediately afterward, because the resteal is much less likely to work.

[/ QUOTE ]

i do not buy this. the fact that he just got caught should mean Joe should give him more respect for a hand. It would be a perfect slight overshove with a big hand since Joe just saw him push light.

[Jeff76]

[ QUOTE ]
i do not buy this. the fact that he just got caught should mean Joe should give him more respect for a hand. It would be a perfect slight overshove with a big hand since Joe just saw him push light.

[/ QUOTE ]Yup, this was my thought initially as well. Usually if I do this twice in a row, I have the goods the 2nd time. Of course, if I'm against a player who I think will expect me not to try it again then I may push light a second time. You know, if I think the player will approach me on the 2nd level "he wouldn't do this a second time without a hand because he'd be expecting me to call, so he must have a monster . . ."

It's clear that Ike expected Sebok to be playing deeper than 1st level poker /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[8Adam8]

People are dumb...

From what i've gathered:

-Joe Sebok may be a winning live tounrment player, but so is a monkey who can beat $1 online MTTs.
-Joe Sebok does not understand basic tournament concepts
-Thinking the 99 call is even remotely close vs Ike's re-stealing range is LOL

[Zinzan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
haha I was at this table. It was the funniest thing to see Sebok just sit there all whinny after losing the flip.

Obviously both plays are very standard.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ya it was pretty funny. Like one orbit later he looks over at me, still really pissed off, and says something like "You're that Haxton guy, right?" I said "Yah, you're that guy that dressed like a baby last year, right?" He did not get less pissed.

[/ QUOTE ]

ike, this was very funny.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

-Z

[ike]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
haha I was at this table. It was the funniest thing to see Sebok just sit there all whinny after losing the flip.

Obviously both plays are very standard.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ya it was pretty funny. Like one orbit later he looks over at me, still really pissed off, and says something like "You're that Haxton guy, right?" I said "Yah, you're that guy that dressed like a baby last year, right?" He did not get less pissed.

[/ QUOTE ]

ike, this was very funny.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

-Z

[/ QUOTE ]

LOLOLOL

Oh, what could have been.

[LuckyLloyd]

[ QUOTE ]
People are dumb...

From what i've gathered:

-Joe Sebok may be a winning live tounrment player, but so is a monkey who can beat $1 online MTTs.
-Joe Sebok does not understand basic tournament concepts
-Thinking the 99 call is even remotely close vs Ike's re-stealing range is LOL

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm going to lol at that lol.

[SuperUberBob]

[ QUOTE ]

Hang on there, Bob! If you were playing against yourself, you'd make the resteal with suited connectors -- in which case, the call with 99 is just fine. No?

[/ QUOTE ]

If I was against myself, I'd know exactly what my opponent was holding and he'd know exactly what I was holding since we both think alike since we are the same person.

Anyways, what does this have to do with Joe Sebok and Ike?

Of course SC is not the only hand I'd re-steal with. I just don't mind doing it with that rather than A2o or something like that.

[Thegunshow]

anyone hear the wed show? he basically rails a guy who is willing the get his money in as a 2:1 dog but is getting better than 2:1 on his money. When it pointed out that the guy had a big stack and it was a +ev play he starts getting mad talking about how you should never get it in with the worst of it

[Alex Jacob]

[ QUOTE ]
This was obviously a much tougher call...

[/ QUOTE ]

where does joe say that 99 was a close or tough call? he said it was TOUGHER, tougher than calling with kings.

[CaseS87]

They made a few comments on the pokerwire radio show tonight about this thread.

I'll summarize the comments made:

Joe Sebok: I didn't actually insult him. (apparently calling someone an idiot isn't an insult anymore) I never said the AT play was bad, but the KJ hand is terrible.

Joe Stapleton: LOL 2+2 IS FULL OF NERDS AND HAND RANGES ARE STUPID!!!

[stevepa]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
People are dumb...

From what i've gathered:

-Joe Sebok may be a winning live tounrment player, but so is a monkey who can beat $1 online MTTs.
-Joe Sebok does not understand basic tournament concepts
-Thinking the 99 call is even remotely close vs Ike's re-stealing range is LOL

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm going to lol at that lol.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? Folding 99 here would be a disaster.

Superuberbob, open pokerstove, put a reasonable (read: wide) restealing range against 99 and then come back and say it's a bad call.

Steve

P.S. I have more in tournaments winnings than Joe Sebok in way less tournies. Ship it.

[Bavid Denyamine]

Brag: I wrote the e-mail that got on PokerWire about this
Beat: It's not that interesting + I'm dumb
Variance: Joe Sebok thinks the Gap Theory is trash and can't define it?

[CaseS87]

[ QUOTE ]
Brag: I wrote the e-mail that got on PokerWire about this
Beat: It's not that interesting + I'm dumb
Variance: Joe Sebok thinks the Gap Theory is trash and can't define it?

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL hand ranges... what are you, some kind of nerd?

[badatmath]

lol, he called Ike "The little man". At least he's not going to beat him up though.

[Bond18]

Blah blah another std live player who has little to no concept of these wacky things like "resteals" and "Pot odds".

Ike>Sebok and i do not give a [censored] how much in cashes Sebok has. I already know he's slightly better than a std donk, so sure, fine, he's +EV in a live donkament. That doesn't mean he's actually any good.

[Bond18]

[ QUOTE ]
lol, he called Ike "The little man". At least he's not going to beat him up though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where does Sebok get off calling anyone a little man? I'm fairly sure i almost stepped on his head once.

[TyFuji]

Word I'm listening to the latest episode right now and joe is really pissing me off. His total ignorance of the skill of online players in general is upsetting... I think he's funny and interesting but he hasn't shown anything exceptional through his play, he seems pretty standard.

On the other hand, his father certainly respects the online players (through aba, etc.) and could certainly explain the gap theory and restealing strategy.

But if ike is reshoving KJo 50 bbs deep or something like that, I don't know how much we can defend him. The details of the hand are very unclear, I would like to hear definitive stacks/blinds for the hand.

[mastr]

lol @ sebok, grudge match is only a matter of time

[Superfluous Man]

Joe Sebok complained ENDLESSLY in a 10k event when he lost two (yes, TWO) coinflips. Once he had AK that lost to QQ, the other time he had QQ that lost to AK. Had he won them both he would have been chip leader...and he let the table know this for about 45 minutes until, mercifully, it broke.

[EWS87]

lol at him describing the second level of thinking as an impossible level

[Michaelson]

Umm, am I the only one who realises that Joe is a PROFESSIONAL and as such he is right and people who post on internet forums are wrong? Geez.

[J.C. Gloves]

[ QUOTE ]
Umm, am I the only one who realises that Joe is a PROFESSIONAL and as such he is right and people who post on internet forums are wrong? Geez.

[/ QUOTE ]
Sarcasm...? I hope.

[Yaboosh]

[ QUOTE ]
I already know he's slightly better than a std donk, so sure, fine, he's +EV in a live donkament. That doesn't mean he's actually any good.

[/ QUOTE ]

What? Of course it means he is good. It certainly doesn't mean he is the best, but being better than average and being +EV in big buyin tournaments makes you at least good. Good is a relative term, and relative to the field, he is good. Perhaps relative to the best is he not good, but that is not a very good way of standardizing the abilities of poker players, it should obviously be in comparison to the average field you play against most often.

[RutgersKev]

OT: Sorry for the mini-highjack

Does anyone have a link to that blog Sebok and Stapleton were talking about on the most recent show that had the hamburger story?

[8Adam8]

Just got back to this thread

SuperUberBob, from your posts in this thread, you are wrong a lot and don't understand some basic concepts.

Stevepa is right as usual.

[curtains]

This blog is completely retarded, the AT reraise is totally standard, especially with antes in play. Not reraising would be very bad, unless you had some kind of physical tell or knew that the player raising was an ridiculously tight stealer for some reason (obviously this shouldn't be the case against someone who plays poker all the time).

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
People are dumb...

From what i've gathered:

-Joe Sebok may be a winning live tounrment player, but so is a monkey who can beat $1 online MTTs.
-Joe Sebok does not understand basic tournament concepts
-Thinking the 99 call is even remotely close vs Ike's re-stealing range is LOL

[/ QUOTE ]


he just said it was closer than the previous hand, in which he had KK on the button? Ofc we don't know the stack sizes, maybe ike pushed allin for 100x the BB and Sebok had him covered!

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
it seems like Joe has no understanding of a resteal whatsoever. On the radio show he called the A-10 a zero play...mocking ike saying if you get called your crushed and if you have him beat hes going to fold. He has no clue that you are raising it to steal his raise and that the A-10 is meaningless at this point. He's looking at it as Ike trying to get it in with A-10 against a hand worse then A-10 which is ludicrous and shows that Sebok really has no clue

[/ QUOTE ]


This is really so ludicrous its not even funny. Of course you won't be called by a worse hand, but youll at least have usually 25-30% equity when called (and of course sometimes around 45% against underpairs), and you won't be called that often.

I don't know this Sebok guy at all, I just hate when people act like they are God's gift and insult other players, while at the same time spouting the most ignorant nonsense I've ever heard. I'm surprised he didn't go on to say how it'd be much better to steal with 76s because then you aren't dominated when you get called.

[James282]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
it seems like Joe has no understanding of a resteal whatsoever. On the radio show he called the A-10 a zero play...mocking ike saying if you get called your crushed and if you have him beat hes going to fold. He has no clue that you are raising it to steal his raise and that the A-10 is meaningless at this point. He's looking at it as Ike trying to get it in with A-10 against a hand worse then A-10 which is ludicrous and shows that Sebok really has no clue

[/ QUOTE ]


This is really so ludicrous its not even funny. Of course you won't be called by a worse hand, but youll at least have usually 25-30% equity when called (and of course sometimes around 45% against underpairs), and you won't be called that often.

I don't know this Sebok guy at all, I just hate when people act like they are God's gift and insult other players, while at the same time spouting the most ignorant nonsense I've ever heard. I'm surprised he didn't go on to say how it'd be much better to steal with 76s because then you aren't dominated when you get called.

[/ QUOTE ]

curtains, this sums it up pretty much perfectly. the fact that any players sit there and act like a smug douche because of the way another player played(regardless of whether it was defensible, or not) is a total embarassment to being a poker player. like really, my friends see this [censored] on tv and figure all poker players are like this. unfortunately, they are right.

YOU'RE THAT HAXTON KID, RIGHT?


give me a [censored] break. the smugness of tourney pros has to be the worst of all. being +ev in these big tournaments is basically a lock for any winning mid stakes cash player. you can give yourself edges here and there, but the fields are so bad in these things that of course any decent player is a "winning tournament player," regardless of results.

Taking any player who has had success and looking back retrospectively on how good they are and citing things like how much they've won doesn't prove anything. Analyzing a player's decisions and thought processes does, and Sebok's interpretation of these events speaks much more loudly about his actual poker knowledge and ability than any amounts of "cashes" or "winnings."


Obviously Sebok would never play Ike heads up in a cash game because he'd just get railroaded, and he really has nothing to gain even by winning(unless the stakes were quite high). He can only (likely) lose and then look like even more of a [censored] than he did in his blogtilt post.
James

[EWS87]

great post james...nh indeed

[Michaelson]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Umm, am I the only one who realises that Joe is a PROFESSIONAL and as such he is right and people who post on internet forums are wrong? Geez.

[/ QUOTE ]
Sarcasm...? I hope.

[/ QUOTE ]

Joe Sebok from the last podcast: "Well the thing that cracked me up is, you read the thread and people are going on about how I don't know what I'm doing and how bad I am... like people, if you're doing something professionally and you're able to make money at it, especially in a competitive environment--I'm not saying I'm the best by any means, I'm still learning the game--but trust me, I'm probably better than you if you're writing on a thread"

[PickyTooth]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Umm, am I the only one who realises that Joe is a PROFESSIONAL and as such he is right and people who post on internet forums are wrong? Geez.

[/ QUOTE ]
Sarcasm...? I hope.

[/ QUOTE ]

Joe Sebok from the last podcast: "Well the thing that cracked me up is, you read the thread and people are going on about how I don't know what I'm doing and how bad I am... like people, if you're doing something professionally and you're able to make money at it, especially in a competitive environment--I'm not saying I'm the best by any means, I'm still learning the game--but trust me, I'm probably better than you if you're writing on a thread"

[/ QUOTE ]

Ike
Mastr
StoxTrader
CTS
PickyTooth
Sponger
Shaniac
Stevepa
Curtains
James282

Joe here's a list of 10 guys who posted in this thread. Please pic anyone of them to play heads up. For any amounts of money.

It would be fun if you could back up your random stupid comments for once.

ps. You can always get one of your 2 daddy's (Barry and Gavin) to back you.

[Futtocked]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Umm, am I the only one who realises that Joe is a PROFESSIONAL and as such he is right and people who post on internet forums are wrong? Geez.

[/ QUOTE ]
Sarcasm...? I hope.

[/ QUOTE ]

Joe Sebok from the last podcast: "Well the thing that cracked me up is, you read the thread and people are going on about how I don't know what I'm doing and how bad I am... like people, if you're doing something professionally and you're able to make money at it, especially in a competitive environment--I'm not saying I'm the best by any means, I'm still learning the game--but trust me, I'm probably better than you if you're writing on a thread"

[/ QUOTE ]

... and your point michaelson?? what he said is true... hes probably better than MOST of everyone on this site in live tourneys...
otherwise everybody on here would be playing in and cashing in mid-high stakes live tourneys(not counting those of us under 21).. and if you say that having success in live tourneys is not your aspiration than you're just lying to yourself and probably forgetting the reason you even started playing poker(--cos you saw it on tv)

joe started from scratch so don't try and say something about how he could've always just gotten money from barry and that any success he has is just variance

stop blowing what one person said about another person (whom he doesn't even know) way out of proportion by attacking his character.. it would be fine had his analysis of the hands been re-analyzed by posters in this thread, but there's no reason to criticize his persona

[Matt24]

such hostility, I like Joe, he's fun at the table.

[Futtocked]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Umm, am I the only one who realises that Joe is a PROFESSIONAL and as such he is right and people who post on internet forums are wrong? Geez.

[/ QUOTE ]
Sarcasm...? I hope.

[/ QUOTE ]

Joe Sebok from the last podcast: "Well the thing that cracked me up is, you read the thread and people are going on about how I don't know what I'm doing and how bad I am... like people, if you're doing something professionally and you're able to make money at it, especially in a competitive environment--I'm not saying I'm the best by any means, I'm still learning the game--but trust me, I'm probably better than you if you're writing on a thread"

[/ QUOTE ]

Ike
Mastr
StoxTrader
CTS
PickyTooth
Sponger
Shaniac
Stevepa
Curtains
James282

Joe here's a list of 10 guys who posted in this thread. Please pic anyone of them to play heads up. For any amounts of money.

It would be fun if you could back up your random stupid comments for once.

ps. You can always get one of your 2 daddy's (Barry and Gavin) to back you.

[/ QUOTE ]


stupid [censored] like this is just childish

[Bonified]

[ QUOTE ]
but trust me, I'm probably better than you if you're writing on a thread"

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know Joe, I'd like to trust you on this one, but if it's OK with you I'll stick to reading what people write and making my own judgement of how well they understand the game based on that, whoever they are.

[Michaelson]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Umm, am I the only one who realises that Joe is a PROFESSIONAL and as such he is right and people who post on internet forums are wrong? Geez.

[/ QUOTE ]
Sarcasm...? I hope.

[/ QUOTE ]

Joe Sebok from the last podcast: "Well the thing that cracked me up is, you read the thread and people are going on about how I don't know what I'm doing and how bad I am... like people, if you're doing something professionally and you're able to make money at it, especially in a competitive environment--I'm not saying I'm the best by any means, I'm still learning the game--but trust me, I'm probably better than you if you're writing on a thread"

[/ QUOTE ]

... and your point michaelson?? what he said is true... hes probably better than MOST of everyone on this site in live tourneys...
otherwise everybody on here would be playing in and cashing in mid-high stakes live tourneys(not counting those of us under 21).. and if you say that having success in live tourneys is not your aspiration than you're just lying to yourself and probably forgetting the reason you even started playing poker(--cos you saw it on tv)

joe started from scratch so don't try and say something about how he could've always just gotten money from barry and that any success he has is just variance

stop blowing what one person said about another person (whom he doesn't even know) way out of proportion by attacking his character.. it would be fine had his analysis of the hands been re-analyzed by posters in this thread, but there's no reason to criticize his persona

[/ QUOTE ]

I like the guy and listen to pokerwire all the time. He's also no doubt a better poker player than I am. I also think there's a lot of rubbish been posted in this thread. The way he pulled rank when discussing this thread was stupid though. My point was that if I were concerned only with someone's poker playing credentials, I'd much sooner take the word of an online player with a proven record at 5/10NL than a live tourney pro with a few big paydays. For him to suggest otherwise seemed arrogant to me, that's all.

[mr.bum]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Umm, am I the only one who realises that Joe is a PROFESSIONAL and as such he is right and people who post on internet forums are wrong? Geez.

[/ QUOTE ]
Sarcasm...? I hope.

[/ QUOTE ]

Joe Sebok from the last podcast: "Well the thing that cracked me up is, you read the thread and people are going on about how I don't know what I'm doing and how bad I am... like people, if you're doing something professionally and you're able to make money at it, especially in a competitive environment--I'm not saying I'm the best by any means, I'm still learning the game--but trust me, I'm probably better than you if you're writing on a thread"

[/ QUOTE ]

Ike
Mastr
StoxTrader
CTS
PickyTooth
Sponger
Shaniac
Stevepa
Curtains
James282

Joe here's a list of 10 guys who posted in this thread. Please pic anyone of them to play heads up. For any amounts of money.

It would be fun if you could back up your random stupid comments for once.

ps. You can always get one of your 2 daddy's (Barry and Gavin) to back you.

[/ QUOTE ]


stupid [censored] like this is just childish

[/ QUOTE ]

__________________________________________________ ___________
childish? yes. true? yes. very relevent? very. seebs would not have chit if he wasnt swaping very large percents with bery, mimi and others...acting like he built his roll from scratch is a joke...

joe in a a nutshell
seebork"man when i was growing up i had every transformer"
stapelton "oh, i wanted those but they were very expensive."
seebork "oh i had know idea"

he has no clue how many life advantages he has gotten over the years and never takes a second to reflect.

also if he says the word "retard or retarded" one more [censored] time i may say hi explain how great a person my younger brother is(hes disabled)and then pull a chad brown...though i do belive in throwing the first punch in any fight you are willing to take part in so he may not be able to walk as easily as aron bean was.

[nath]

[ QUOTE ]
trust me, I'm probably better than you if you're writing on a thread"

[/ QUOTE ]
it's funny because the reason a significant number of us write on threads is to discuss strategy and get better. i will say that joe is better than most of us at getting media coverage for himself, which isn't hard when you dress up in a superhero costume and cause a distraction for everyone during the main event when the TD announces that you lost your bet or whatever.

and yeah, i'd say a significant number of people who have posted in this thread are better tournament players than joe sebok. for what my opinion is worth.

[PickyTooth]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Umm, am I the only one who realises that Joe is a PROFESSIONAL and as such he is right and people who post on internet forums are wrong? Geez.

[/ QUOTE ]
Sarcasm...? I hope.

[/ QUOTE ]

Joe Sebok from the last podcast: "Well the thing that cracked me up is, you read the thread and people are going on about how I don't know what I'm doing and how bad I am... like people, if you're doing something professionally and you're able to make money at it, especially in a competitive environment--I'm not saying I'm the best by any means, I'm still learning the game--but trust me, I'm probably better than you if you're writing on a thread"

[/ QUOTE ]

Ike
Mastr
StoxTrader
CTS
PickyTooth
Sponger
Shaniac
Stevepa
Curtains
James282

Joe here's a list of 10 guys who posted in this thread. Please pic anyone of them to play heads up. For any amounts of money.

It would be fun if you could back up your random stupid comments for once.

ps. You can always get one of your 2 daddy's (Barry and Gavin) to back you.

[/ QUOTE ]


stupid [censored] like this is just childish

[/ QUOTE ]

Attacking people like he did who don't have a chance to respond isn't ?

[SuperUberBob]

[ QUOTE ]
Just got back to this thread

SuperUberBob, from your posts in this thread, you are wrong a lot and don't understand some basic concepts.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice sample size. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[BenTurpen]

Theo Tran wants to punch Isaac Haxton.

[ike]

[ QUOTE ]
Theo Tran wants to punch Isaac Haxton.

[/ QUOTE ]

WTF? Why?

[Kevmath]

You may want to listen to today's Pokerwire show, http://cache.libsyn.com/pokerwire/070707-LuckyFunturday.mp3

[SuperUberBob]

[ QUOTE ]
Theo Tran wants to punch Isaac Haxton.

[/ QUOTE ]

Much hate for Issac. Doesn't seem like a bad guy. Just a lot of these poker pros sounds like a bunch of weenies.

[ike]

[ QUOTE ]
You may want to listen to today's Pokerwire show, http://cache.libsyn.com/pokerwire/070707-LuckyFunturday.mp3

[/ QUOTE ]

my speakers are broken. whats the synopsis?

[Futtocked]

i think this whole ordeal just proves that most of the 'big name' live pros who arent familiar with teh internet players are going to see plays like the one ike made against joe as 'horrible' plays without ever really going into any fair analysis of the hand and taking everything into consideration... probably an ego thing

i mean just imagine if it were someone like phil hellmuth or daniel negreanu in sebok's position... these two guys are known to vent a very large amount and whine about plays their opponents make against them. im sure either one of them would've had a more adverse reaction (daniel in a blog or video blog and phil just in person immediately after the hands)

would've been interesting to see the reaction on the forums had if daniel had been in this situation, as he is much more respected and has a loyal following

[pig4bill]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
it seems like Joe has no understanding of a resteal whatsoever. On the radio show he called the A-10 a zero play...mocking ike saying if you get called your crushed and if you have him beat hes going to fold. He has no clue that you are raising it to steal his raise and that the A-10 is meaningless at this point. He's looking at it as Ike trying to get it in with A-10 against a hand worse then A-10 which is ludicrous and shows that Sebok really has no clue

[/ QUOTE ]


This is really so ludicrous its not even funny. Of course you won't be called by a worse hand, but youll at least have usually 25-30% equity when called (and of course sometimes around 45% against underpairs), and you won't be called that often.

I don't know this Sebok guy at all, I just hate when people act like they are God's gift and insult other players, while at the same time spouting the most ignorant nonsense I've ever heard. I'm surprised he didn't go on to say how it'd be much better to steal with 76s because then you aren't dominated when you get called.

[/ QUOTE ]

curtains, this sums it up pretty much perfectly. the fact that any players sit there and act like a smug douche because of the way another player played(regardless of whether it was defensible, or not) is a total embarassment to being a poker player. like really, my friends see this [censored] on tv and figure all poker players are like this. unfortunately, they are right.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank goodness nobody on 2+2 is like that.

[BenTurpen]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You may want to listen to today's Pokerwire show, http://cache.libsyn.com/pokerwire/070707-LuckyFunturday.mp3

[/ QUOTE ]

my speakers are broken. whats the synopsis?

[/ QUOTE ]

That you're a bad poker playin, annoying, SOB!

But yeah, Theo said everything about you annoyed him, and that you just really suck.

I have a hard time remembering things on the show when they have like six different people talking at once.

[ReptileHouse]

Lots of trash talk. "He proved why he's a fish," blah blah blah. General "zomg ike is so bad and an annoying guy" type stuff. Bunch of bragging about snapping off a bluff w/ ace high. I was hoping for some "hu4rollz lol" type stuff, but alas.... not yet anyway, 20 minutes in.

[J.C. Gloves]

Wow Ike I didn't kno ppl had such disdain for you as Theo does.

[murph0110]

yah no [censored]. they are really putting u and your friends down... jeez...

it was either theo or they have someone else on too, and he called you and your friends gay.. then they were making fun of how u overpushed with pocket 4 against aces and got snap called and sucked out..

[Pudge714]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This was obviously a much tougher call...

[/ QUOTE ]

where does joe say that 99 was a close or tough call? he said it was TOUGHER, tougher than calling with kings.

[/ QUOTE ]
If he said
"This was obviously a tougher call"
I would agree with you, however since he said a "much tougher call" it made it seem like he seriously entertained folding, which from what I gather isn't a good play vs. Ike.

BTW were there antes? Because I like these resteal more with antes otherwise you are a little deep imo.

[sublime]

wow a big name tournament pro turning out to be a [censored] trash talking idiot. shocker.

[sublime]

also barry 'wilt aint got nuttin on me' greenstein should be embarrassed right now. i heart barry g and his super sperm produced this jerkoff. variance.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This was obviously a much tougher call...

[/ QUOTE ]

where does joe say that 99 was a close or tough call? he said it was TOUGHER, tougher than calling with kings.

[/ QUOTE ]
If he said
"This was obviously a tougher call"
I would agree with you, however since he said a "much tougher call" it made it seem like he seriously entertained folding, which from what I gather isn't a good play vs. Ike.

BTW were there antes? Because I like these resteal more with antes otherwise you are a little deep imo.

[/ QUOTE ]


Definitely antes at 400-800, cant think of any NL tourney at the WSOP where there wasn't.

[Syntec87]

lol @ Joe thinking he is better b/c he no longer tries to learn by posting in a thread... even bobby baldwin said in an interview recently there is always more to learn about poker, but Joe Sebok is better b/c he doesnt post in a thread...

[mr.bum]

[ QUOTE ]
also barry 'wilt aint got nuttin on me' greenstein should be embarrassed right now. i heart barry g and his super sperm produced this jerkoff. variance.

[/ QUOTE ]

barry g's sperm had chit todo with this jerkoff. joe does not talk about his less famous sperm donating father becaues that guy does not garner much respect in the poker world.

[Mrnoluv]

I'm no great poker player, but when two pros basically call you a DONK, that can't be good. I wonder if Gavin thinks this kid is as bad a player as Theo and Joe.

Damn Theo wants to box him???

[sublime]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
also barry 'wilt aint got nuttin on me' greenstein should be embarrassed right now. i heart barry g and his super sperm produced this jerkoff. variance.

[/ QUOTE ]

barry g's sperm had chit todo with this jerkoff. joe does not talk about his less famous sperm donating father becaues that guy does not garner much respect in the poker world.

[/ QUOTE ]

i didnt know he was not barrys real kid. my apologies barry.

[CaseS87]

Hahahahaha Theo Tran is such a prick.

[Dids]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm no great poker player, but when two pros basically call you a DONK, that can't be good. I wonder if Gavin thinks this kid is as bad a player as Theo and Joe.

Damn Theo wants to box him???

[/ QUOTE ]

How are we defining pro and why does Joe get to be one when Ike isn't?

As far as i can tell, "pro" tends to be whoever owns the wang that Cardplayer wants to mouthify.

[SuperUberBob]

The fact that Sebok and Tran dedicated their entire radio show to bashing Ike shows how petty they truly are. They got to get a hobby.

[Alex Jacob]

okay, this internet cronie is coming out of the woodwork.

i just listened to the pokerwire broadcasts.

in the july 4 show, joe says:

"isaac haxton, who apparently did well in the bahamas, but is retarded... doesn't play well from what i saw... he's just an idiot..."

"wow! has this kid lost his mind?...if he's gonna make the AT play then he could be doing something else stupid... he has KJ... KJ!... so he was lucky his stupidity left him in a race... right after he made a boneheaded play with AT... this kid thought that was the right thing to do"


then on the july 6 show, joe says:

"the first play he made i said was very aggressive, i never said it was a horrible play.."

"it's so funny that this has blown up into such a big thing... it's totally crazy.. i'm being personaly attacked... i never said anything bad about this isaac haxton kid..."

"it's totally gotten out of control, i just think it's really funny, obviously he was really pissed"


i don't even want to go into theo's comments on the july 7 show. i will say of course that they were way way out of line and the show is pretty out of line for encouraging it.

***

when i read the blog i was pretty disappointed in joe, because i'm not normally fond of calling people out for making bad plays especially in such a public and seemingly mean-spirited way. but i was willing to ignore it as an isolated frustrated blog post from a guy having a cold series.

having listened to the radio i have to say joe you are way out of line here. you call the guy retarded and an idiot and you don't expect a response? who do you think you are, howard stern?

ike may not be respected by you but he is very respected by me and the other "people who post in a thread" who also have made money at a competitive field.

-aj

[Yaboosh]

He is constantly denying saying things that he said on air. He called Duck a terrible player, and then when an emailer called him out, he claimed he just called the 42 against AA move a terrible move.

[Bavid Denyamine]

alex jacob owns

[flavio321]

can we seriously setup a boxing match between theo vs. ike for charity with side bets?

[SuperUberBob]

[ QUOTE ]
alex jacob owns

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT

[mastr]

this is reall f*ed up... i always thought sebok was a douchebag cuz of his eyebrow ring... i'm glad initial reads are still spot on for me.

[James282]

Alex, very nice post. So funny how Joe goes ahead and tries to backpedal and make everyone ELSE seem petty when the whole thing starts with his gay name calling.

Jaems

[Admo]

[ QUOTE ]
okay, this internet cronie is coming out of the woodwork.

[/ QUOTE ]

Alex,

Big, big fan.

Admo

ps. Mrs. Admo still hates you for causing me to quit poker for five weeks

[James282]

man, this theo tran seems a million times worse than sebok even. "isaac haxton's friends are even bigger hippies than he is, and they are gay"

nice one!

James

[shaniac]

I really find this whole thing distasteful, and I am acquainted with, also at least generically fond of, all parties.

I really don't understand how Ike inspires this kind of vitriol, and he's certainly not worthy of mockery. I didn't listen to the radio show, but I heard that Theo was deriding him as a "hippie" and expressing a desire to fight him. That seems like really needless, misdirected anger, and I suspect Ike is also even money at worst in this scrap.

For the rest, I agree with Alex's post. If Joe wants to approach his radio gig as a shock jock, and relishes the enjoyment he feels while berating his opponents for their "ridiculous plays" and their accomplishments, then he should be prepared for lots of confrontation and underlying animosity from other players in his vicinity and resolve to abandon the "aw shucks, what me worry?" attitude I've always found so likeable about him.

[joerem]

The all in with kj seems a little loose, but what did Sebok think he could beat there? At best he was a coin flip. Seems like an easy lay down for Sebok.

[8Adam8]

[ QUOTE ]
The all in with kj seems a little loose, but what did Sebok think he could beat there? At best he was a coin flip. Seems like an easy lay down for Sebok.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol

[CaseS87]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The all in with kj seems a little loose, but what did Sebok think he could beat there? At best he was a coin flip. Seems like an easy lay down for Sebok.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol

[/ QUOTE ]

[mastr]

I would love to see Sebok play any of the people pickytooth listed

[PickyTooth]

[ QUOTE ]
alex jacob owns

[/ QUOTE ]

yah really..

nice post

[PickyTooth]

[ QUOTE ]
man, this theo tran seems a million times worse than sebok even. "isaac haxton's friends are even bigger hippies than he is, and they are gay"

nice one!

James

[/ QUOTE ]

Yah he was a pretty big douche. Some really bad player on day 2 got it all in vs Theos kings with A4 and as soon as he sees the cards he starts with the "omg A4.. idiot called me with A4 etc etc". Or calling a bluff with Ace high (pretty basic hand btw) then going to high five his buddies in the crowd. Jumping around like a schoolgirl the whole final table.

There was a bunch of other examples like this where he was pretty much classless at the table. I thought it was maybe his nerves because the money involved was allot for him but it seems that he's just an all around idiot.

[Alex Jacob]

re: the ace high bluff, i was watching that hand on the internet broadcast. when it went down i was 90%+ sure that theo was going to call with AK. then commentator says, "he can't call here on the river. he can only fold or raise." (what?!) anyway the reaction in the booth when he finally made the call was huge, when it seemed like a pretty easy call against a bluffbox like ike.

[Mrnoluv]

[ QUOTE ]
The all in with kj seems a little loose, but what did Sebok think he could beat there? At best he was a coin flip. Seems like an easy lay down for Sebok.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL.

I heard the story, the KJ play seems like a bad play. I heard the show, seems like Joe was just pissed, but what Theo said is what everyone should be upset about.

I'm new to this site, so I am very neutral to both sides (appears most on here are one-sided), but my question is: Is this Issac kid that much of a dick to have two pros come out after him like this??? I mean, I don't know who he is, but from what they are saying, it doesn't put him in a good light. That's whats so bad about this, for us who don't know this guy, we now picture him as a bad playing a-hole who sucksout all the time, when he could be coolest guy/best player in the world. That's where Joe/Theo made the mistake, judge his play not his character.

I haven't heard this much hate since Jamie Gold and maybe my mother when I was born.

[PickyTooth]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The all in with kj seems a little loose, but what did Sebok think he could beat there? At best he was a coin flip. Seems like an easy lay down for Sebok.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL.

I heard the story, the KJ play seems like a bad play. I heard the show, seems like Joe was just pissed, but what Theo said is what everyone should be upset about.

I'm new to this site, so I am very neutral to both sides (appears most on here are one-sided), but my question is: Is this Issac kid that much of a dick to have two pros come out after him like this??? I mean, I don't know who he is, but from what they are saying, it doesn't put him in a good light. That's whats so bad about this, for us who don't know this guy, we now picture him as a bad playing a-hole who sucksout all the time, when he could be coolest guy/best player in the world. That's where Joe/Theo made the mistake, judge his play not his character.

I haven't heard this much hate since Jamie Gold and maybe my mother when I was born.

[/ QUOTE ]

He's pretty much one of the nicest guys at the table. Takes everything very lightly and never whines.

[Apathy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The all in with kj seems a little loose, but what did Sebok think he could beat there? At best he was a coin flip. Seems like an easy lay down for Sebok.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL.

I heard the story, the KJ play seems like a bad play. I heard the show, seems like Joe was just pissed, but what Theo said is what everyone should be upset about.

I'm new to this site, so I am very neutral to both sides (appears most on here are one-sided), but my question is: Is this Issac kid that much of a dick to have two pros come out after him like this??? I mean, I don't know who he is, but from what they are saying, it doesn't put him in a good light. That's whats so bad about this, for us who don't know this guy, we now picture him as a bad playing a-hole who sucksout all the time, when he could be coolest guy/best player in the world. That's where Joe/Theo made the mistake, judge his play not his character.

I haven't heard this much hate since Jamie Gold and maybe my mother when I was born.

[/ QUOTE ]


Everytime I see isaac he says hi, asks me how im doing and is a generally nice guy. Everytime ive played poker with him he is one of the best players at the table. I cant believe there's so much hate for him from these guys. Seems really really uncalled for.

[aislephive]

This radio show is so terrible. It's a bunch of pretty mediocre poker players gossiping about other people like a bunch of [censored] schoolgirls. Quite pathetic, really. Theo tries to come off like he is such a hardass and that he's going to beat up Ike next time he sees him, rofl. All in all an immature douchebag who sucks at poker.

On a side note this is supposed to be a professional show, right? These guys definitely give poker players a bad name and need to be taken off the air.

[Rekrul]

Whats with people who act like kids calling people kids anyways? Its annoying as [censored]

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]
Word I'm listening to the latest episode right now and joe is really pissing me off. His total ignorance of the skill of online players in general is upsetting... I think he's funny and interesting but he hasn't shown anything exceptional through his play, he seems pretty standard.

On the other hand, his father certainly respects the online players (through aba, etc.) and could certainly explain the gap theory and restealing strategy.

But if ike is reshoving KJo 50 bbs deep or something like that, I don't know how much we can defend him. The details of the hand are very unclear, I would like to hear definitive stacks/blinds for the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

The KJ push looks more like ~30BB's. Ike had ~25k it appears.

[Rekrul]

Theres some [censored] regular at the Wynn who always calls me Kid and is always bragging about how good / rich he is. Then when I was registering for WSOP I saw him playing satellites there. LOLLLLL

[bottomset]

[ QUOTE ]
Theres some [censored] regular at the Wynn who always calls me Kid and is always bragging about how good / rich he is. Then when I was registering for WSOP I saw him playing satellites there. LOLLLLL

[/ QUOTE ]

lol rekrul you rule

[mastr]

i just listened to the radio show.. I am so offended and honestly upset at the entire group of them and am disgusted that people can act like this.

[Victor]

rofl im glad i misclicked into this forum. sebok et al are idiots.

[BenTurpen]

[ QUOTE ]
re: the ace high bluff, i was watching that hand on the internet broadcast. when it went down i was 90%+ sure that theo was going to call with AK. then commentator says, "he can't call here on the river. he can only fold or raise." (what?!) anyway the reaction in the booth when he finally made the call was huge, when it seemed like a pretty easy call against a bluffbox like ike.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol, I didn't know anyone actually listened to the announcing on those broadcasts.

In a completely unrelated topic, Howard David is atrocious, and I believe Shannon Elizabeth and Tony Hachem were the co-hosts on this specific final, so yeah, lol.

[southgapoker]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Ya it was pretty funny. Like one orbit later he looks over at me, still really pissed off, and says something like "You're that Haxton guy, right?" I said "Yah, you're that Sebok guy right?" He did not get less pissed.

[/ QUOTE ]

I loled

[/ QUOTE ]

Really wish you had said "Yeah, you're Greenstein's kid right?"

[/ QUOTE ]
I would have paid serious money to see this. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[MattSuspect]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
man, this theo tran seems a million times worse than sebok even. "isaac haxton's friends are even bigger hippies than he is, and they are gay"

nice one!

James

[/ QUOTE ]

Yah he was a pretty big douche. Some really bad player on day 2 got it all in vs Theos kings with A4 and as soon as he sees the cards he starts with the "omg A4.. idiot called me with A4 etc etc". Or calling a bluff with Ace high (pretty basic hand btw) then going to high five his buddies in the crowd. Jumping around like a schoolgirl the whole final table.

There was a bunch of other examples like this where he was pretty much classless at the table. I thought it was maybe his nerves because the money involved was allot for him but it seems that he's just an all around idiot.

[/ QUOTE ]


I liked how Tran stood with his back to the table in coinflip situations,waiting for his friends acknowledgement that everything was going to be ok. He's like those dudes who ask the blackjack dealers for the cards face down, like it makes a f'n difference.

Also, Ike's a good kid, and probably one of the best players I've played live tournaments with.

MM

[Moneyball16]

Seboks awesome. The shows awesome. The AT hand seemed standard, but lol at some of you overthinking the KJo hand. Sebok should have kept his mouth shut and you guys shouldnt care so much.

[Theo Tran]

Ok guys, my buddy sent me the link to these posts and after reading all of them, I had to defend myself before it got worse. First off, none of you were at the table with us day 2 so you dont know the whole story. I said that i didnt like isaac, his little smart comments, as well as his friends' comments. You werent there to hear his friends heckling me. I am usually a nice guy at the table until you attack me. Everyone just hears of what we said about him on the radio show but even with that case, its our opinion. Are we not allowed to give our opinion of his plays? Yes we called him an idiot. Maybe his plays werent bad, but we thought so and we have a right to express our opinions about it. His friends did alot of talking while they were railing him. Why all of a sudden can't i say what i think? I called him a fish...so what? Thats my opinion. People say things about me....thats their opinion. Maybe I went overboard talking [censored] on him but I said the same stuff while he was at the table so to the people who are saying we shouldnt say this stuff without him being able to defend himself, thats not the case. isaac made some bad plays in my opinion and i let him know it. People say the same to me when i make bad plays.....it doesnt bother me. But once again, you guys posting here weren't at the table to hear his little smart comments and his friends heckling after some hands we got into it with so you have no right to tell me i was in the wrong. To alex jacob, youre a great respected player and I understand your post but as stated before, you didnt hear the other side. You guys are only going by what you heard of what i said on the radio. Thanx. Theo

[daryn]

i would like to box theo tran for a million dollars. i'll consider having one arm tied behind my back also.

i played with theo last year in the 3k limit event and he was an all around douchebag in general. i hit a card on him in a hand and he went on to berate me at the table and then go over to his friends and snicker about how bad the fish played the hand.. the whole time of cousre i'm thinking i'd like to play this guy heads up every day for the rest of my life.

[southgapoker]

This thread is about to take off.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok guys, my buddy sent me the link to these posts and after reading all of them, I had to defend myself before it got worse. First off, none of you were at the table with us day 2 so you dont know the whole story. I said that i didnt like isaac, his little smart comments, as well as his friends' comments. You werent there to hear his friends heckling me. I am usually a nice guy at the table until you attack me. Everyone just hears of what we said about him on the radio show but even with that case, its our opinion. Are we not allowed to give our opinion of his plays? Yes we called him an idiot. Maybe his plays werent bad, but we thought so and we have a right to express our opinions about it. His friends did alot of talking while they were railing him. Why all of a sudden can't i say what i think? I called him a fish...so what? Thats my opinion. People say things about me....thats their opinion. Maybe I went overboard talking [censored] on him but I said the same stuff while he was at the table so to the people who are saying we shouldnt say this stuff without him being able to defend himself, thats not the case. isaac made some bad plays in my opinion and i let him know it. People say the same to me when i make bad plays.....it doesnt bother me. But once again, you guys posting here weren't at the table to hear his little smart comments and his friends heckling after some hands we got into it with so you have no right to tell me i was in the wrong. To alex jacob, youre a great respected player and I understand your post but as stated before, you didnt hear the other side. You guys are only going by what you heard of what i said on the radio. Thanx. Theo

[/ QUOTE ]

So your point is, you can call someone an idiot and rip on them on a radio show, because thats your opinion, and you have a right to your opinion. But somehow a bunch of people doing the exact same thing about you on an internet forum is...what? Wrong? Would you prefer we all stop calling you an idiot or saying you were out of line? We aren't allowed to have opinions, thats restricted to you? WTF are you talking about?

Of course it was your opinion that Haxton is an idiot. And its the opinion of those who know him, apparently, that he isn't, and that you were out of line. Don't you think its hypocritical to come in here and blast people for giving opinions while crying about deserving your own opinion?

Say whatever you want about people, and then listen to them say whatever they want about you. Or cry about it but then STFU.

[southgapoker]

Theo,
post some hands

[nath]

So which part of that paragraph provides justification for wanting to kick his ass?

[daryn]

did he really threaten ike physically? as far as i can see theo closely resembles an imp of some sort.

[nath]

[ QUOTE ]
did he really threaten ike physically? as far as i can see theo closely resembles an imp of some sort.

[/ QUOTE ]
i didn't listen to the radio show but i thought someone said he intimated something like that on it

[Theo Tran]

look, i was trying to give my side of the story on why i made comments towards haxton. His friends made their comments so i fired back. I was saying that you guys werent there to see it. And as stated, maybe i went overboard talking [censored] on him. Maybe I will apologize as it was quite classless to go overboard like that about him but was it right for his friends to heckle me while we were playing? The boxing comment that joe made was a joke obviously. You guys can think what you want of me, this went a little out of line and maybe it is a bit my fault. I still dont like the kid but i will apologize for going overboard about it as yes it was quite classless but his friends arent angels either. Theo

[shaniac]

Theo, really, I enjoyed meeting you this summer and playing with you this summer, but I don't see what Ike or his friends could have done to warrant threats or posturing, and I don't see how making bad plays is something that should allow you to call someone an idiot and think it's justified. It's so contrary to being a real professional poker player, it boggles my mind. Also, if Ike's friends did something outrageous enough to warrant a violent reaction, then post details.

Also, if you want me to recap some of YOUR hands from the 1st 1k rebuy that you played, we can see how you feel when a bunch of people call you out randomly for making mistakes in a poker game and/or playing like an idiot.

It just seems so unnecessary and ungracious to win a tournament (um, congrats, I guess) and then go on to pick a fight with one of the opponents you bested. You and Joe seemed to relish this clique-ish mentality, where you think you can mock and hate-on people on a radio show without reaction, but, guess what, your words and thoughts that you express in a public forum have consequences.

Edit: I just saw your 2nd post, and, yeah, you should apoligize and re-think your attitude on this. Who gives a f- about Ike's friends lol?

[cts]

[ QUOTE ]
Joe Sebok from the last podcast: "Well the thing that cracked me up is, you read the thread and people are going on about how I don't know what I'm doing and how bad I am... like people, if you're doing something professionally and you're able to make money at it, especially in a competitive environment--I'm not saying I'm the best by any means, I'm still learning the game--but trust me, I'm probably better than you if you're writing on a thread"

[/ QUOTE ]

mmmmm hu plz

[Victor]

theo, paragraphs pls. your blog makes my eyes bleed.

[FearNoArt]

His friends were heckling you, he wasn't, he handled himself with dignity, no ? Returning the favor would seem the best course of action, what does trying to humiliate someone publicly accomplish ?

[Theo Tran]

shane, you're another player whose game i truly respect and i also respect your demeanor at the table. There were no threats! Joe made a comment about maybe me and isaac boxing and giving it to charity. It was a [censored] joke! Do you really think, at this age, that I'm going to really physically threaten someone? And as i said, when i make a bad play, people say the same to me and i dont care. I know i make mistakes and people critique it. It's their opinion. His friends were heckling me after he made a good call on one of my bluffs on day 2. They were also making comments in the audience while at the final table. I'm really done here, if i offended anyone, im truly sorry. I mean that. Maybe I shouldnt have said that stuff on the radio. As i stated in my first post, Im really a nice guy until you attack me. But yes, maybe i went overboard on some of my comments and therefore i once again apologize if i offended anyone. Theo

[Bonified]

[ QUOTE ]
isaac made some bad plays in my opinion and I let him know it

[/ QUOTE ]

Why ?

Criticising the play of others at the table is classless, bad for the game and unprofessional. By all accounts Joe has some form for this too.

If you guys want to pull rank in debates by claiming to be professional, then at the very least act in a professional manner at the table.

[Syntec87]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Joe Sebok from the last podcast: "Well the thing that cracked me up is, you read the thread and people are going on about how I don't know what I'm doing and how bad I am... like people, if you're doing something professionally and you're able to make money at it, especially in a competitive environment--I'm not saying I'm the best by any means, I'm still learning the game--but trust me, I'm probably better than you if you're writing on a thread"

[/ QUOTE ]

mmmmm hu plz

[/ QUOTE ]

lol Id give cts a winrate of 86BB/100.

under/over?

[shaniac]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
isaac made some bad plays in my opinion and I let him know it

[/ QUOTE ]

Why ?

Criticising the play of others at the table is classless, bad for the game and unprofessional. By all accounts Joe has some form for this too.

If you guys want to pull rank in debates by claiming to be professional, then at the very least act in a professional manner at the table.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd like Joe to comment on the bolded part sometime.

I really think the larger issue is how attacking players' intelligence is bad for the game and counter-intuitive. If you do prove that you are smarter than your opponent, you have accomplished nothing, made it more likely your opponent will improve, and acted in a hurtful way towards someone else. There are 80 ways of describing a hand or poker situation that don't have to involve negatively characterizing opponents...there's just no benefit except to one's own ego.

Theo, I accept your apology, or whatever part of you acknowledges you went overboard.

[Rekrul]

Having ur friends heckle ur opponent when u always try to carry urself with class is annoying as hell. I had that happen in the finals of my HU tourney and I had to kindly ask them to shut the [censored] up.

[deluz35]

[ QUOTE ]
There are 80 ways of describing a hand or poker situation that don't have to involve negatively characterizing opponents...there's just no benefit except to one's own ego.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's the problem all people have to deal with. The painful part of maturing is being able to individuate enough to where it really doesn't matter what anyone else thinks. Until then, it's a circus.

BTW, appreciate the thoughtful posts Shaniac

[Worm75]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Joe Sebok from the last podcast: "Well the thing that cracked me up is, you read the thread and people are going on about how I don't know what I'm doing and how bad I am... like people, if you're doing something professionally and you're able to make money at it, especially in a competitive environment--I'm not saying I'm the best by any means, I'm still learning the game--but trust me, I'm probably better than you if you're writing on a thread"

[/ QUOTE ]

mmmmm hu plz

[/ QUOTE ]

http://img460.imageshack.us/img460/5035/ohsnapiw6hc2.gif (http://imageshack.us)

[Zinzan]

[ QUOTE ]
shane, you're another player whose game i truly respect and i also respect your demeanor at the table. There were no threats! Joe made a comment about maybe me and isaac boxing and giving it to charity. It was a [censored] joke! Do you really think, at this age, that I'm going to really physically threaten someone? And as i said, when i make a bad play, people say the same to me and i dont care. I know i make mistakes and people critique it. It's their opinion. His friends were heckling me after he made a good call on one of my bluffs on day 2. They were also making comments in the audience while at the final table. I'm really done here, if i offended anyone, im truly sorry. I mean that. Maybe I shouldnt have said that stuff on the radio. As i stated in my first post, Im really a nice guy until you attack me. But yes, maybe i went overboard on some of my comments and therefore i once again apologize if i offended anyone. Theo

[/ QUOTE ]

I listen to the Pokerwire show pretty regularly. I think they are dorks a lot of the time, but I am generally entertained by Joe and Gavin, and the guest pros.

Before reading this thread, I had already listened to Theo Tran's interview. He never threatened violence the way it's being portrayed here. He did say that he was willing to go "on the record" and say Haxton was an idiot, after Sebok kinda backed off a bit. Sebok or Stapleton suggested a boxing match, clearly as a joke. That was about it.

I don't really have a problem with Sebok and Tran saying that Ike plays like an idiot. Ike plays a style that invites criticism, and I'm sure he's quite used to being called a donkey. He doesn't really seem to be bothered by it, as his style is obviously working for him.

Theo, you shouldn't let another players' buddies get to you. They are often trying to get under your skin, thinking they are helping their friend. Or they are trying to pump up their friend. Or both. Or maybe they are just asshats. Meh.

-Z

[daryn]

it's nice to see an apology. also maybe next time wait until you are at home with your buddies to berate someone.

[mastr]

ok I was the friend in theo's post.
Let me just say that I played with Theo for hours towards the end as i busted in 30th, and he was an absolute douche at the table berating everyone constantly. it was some of the least class i've seen at a table.



(insert funny anecdote)
then with around 18 left myself timcaum and superfluousman were sweating ike and vivek and we were standing next to theo's friends.

theo kept going up to his friends at the rail and loudly talking about how much of an idiot isaac is, so at this moment we had just been talking about the concept of people that use the phrase tournament life must be bad at poker.

and lo and behold at this moment theo goes up to his friends and says "that guy is crazy, he keeps shoving big. He keeps risking his tournament life playing like this, and i'm gonna be the one to take it" so i had to respond with "you're going to take his life???" we laughed he got angry, end of story.

all else is hyperbole by him to gain attention, nothing was said whatsoever at the final table or anything else. Every interaction i've had with him he was a giant douchebag at the poker table and its comforting to see other people have had the same experience. Sometimes in this business all you have is your reputation, and i know its a cheesy thing to say, but it says so much about a person when they can't handle themselves with any class whatsoever.

EDIT: the hand that caused theo to say this stuff is ike shoved utg with M of 6, and theo tanks forever and fodls AQ faceup.. he then left to come over to the rail to say his comments... loudly

[Zorlac]

I think it's terrible listening to a radio show when the hosts say exactly what they think. What the hell is that about? And the way they force people to download the podcast and then jam the earplugs into peoples ears is downright disgraceful. Free speech be damned i say!

[mastr]

^^^ look up what slander means when you call a person a gay idiot on a radio show

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]

I think it's terrible listening to a radio show when the hosts say exactly what they think. What the hell is that about? And the way they force people to download the podcast and then jam the earplugs into peoples ears is downright disgraceful. Free speech be damned i say!

[/ QUOTE ]

I think its terrible reading on an internet forum where posters post exacty what they think. What the hell is that all about?

Also, I'm a giant hypocrite who thinks I can say what I want but when people criticize me they need to just shut up because it hurts my feelings, who are they anyhow?

[Theo Tran]

ok i really didnt want to make anymore posts but to mastr's post, who did i berate? Please tell me the whole time while we played together til you busted, who did i berate? Please tell me.

[mastr]

3 times you laughed at a player for calling an allin with a worse hand. You called a guy you prob don't know at all (it was mattster) a retard when he called his KQ against you and even after he left the table and after a 30 minute break oyou came back to the table and mocked his play to the rest of the table. that is just one isolated incident off the top of my head

[Theo Tran]

i never called him a retard. Don't [censored] put those words in my mouth. I was friendly with him the whole time we were playing and even after. I never mocked his play. I said to mccabe, i believe it was or maybe amnon, whoever was sitting to my right at the time, that i didnt believe he was as priced in as he was saying he was; basic hand analyzation. Don't [censored] make up things to put my character down. I admit that i made some comments like that towards isaac at the final table to get under his skin after his allin call to lilholdem which was after i was annoyed with your friends and him. But don't [censored] make [censored] up because I was cool with that kid the whole time and even after.

[mastr]

there's also your laughing at the call allin with JJ, and plenty others. But there's no point turning this into a yes you did, no I didn't. People can choose to believe what they want to and I hope you learn to carry yourself with more class at the table is all.

[Theo Tran]

When did you see me laughing after your overcall with jacks there? Did i make fun of your play? Did I call you a donkey or any other names? When you called me and flipped jacks, it was an emotional reaction when i said "you called me with jacks" since i barely had you covered and my tournament life was basically on the line. At the final table after isaac doubled up lilholdem with aj, i joked to him that he (isaac) mustve put him on ace ten to be able to call with aj there. This is after i got into it with him and you. Im done wasting my time on you. I play day 1 tomorrow so if you have still have a problem with me, you can confront me then. Im done wasting my time with you on here.

[aislephive]

[ QUOTE ]
i never called him a retard. Don't [censored] put those words in my mouth. I was friendly with him the whole time we were playing and even after. I never mocked his play. I said to mccabe, i believe it was or maybe amnon, whoever was sitting to my right at the time, that i didnt believe he was as priced in as he was saying he was; basic hand analyzation. Don't [censored] make up things to put my character down. I admit that i made some comments like that towards isaac at the final table to get under his skin after his allin call to lilholdem which was after i was annoyed with your friends and him. But don't [censored] make [censored] up because I was cool with that kid the whole time and even after.

[/ QUOTE ]

Theo, so far pretty much everybody who has played with you (that's posted in this thread) hasn't had the most pleasant things to say about you. Rather than try to act like everybody is just delusional and trying to tarnish your reputations, maybe you should just chill out with berating people (even when it's not overly rude) in general and nobody will say anything.

[Rekrul]

Some people while being very kind and never intending any harm come off as [censored] and or douchebags sometimes, usually out of stupidity.

This very well may be the case here.

[Syntec87]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i never called him a retard. Don't [censored] put those words in my mouth. I was friendly with him the whole time we were playing and even after. I never mocked his play. I said to mccabe, i believe it was or maybe amnon, whoever was sitting to my right at the time, that i didnt believe he was as priced in as he was saying he was; basic hand analyzation. Don't [censored] make up things to put my character down. I admit that i made some comments like that towards isaac at the final table to get under his skin after his allin call to lilholdem which was after i was annoyed with your friends and him. But don't [censored] make [censored] up because I was cool with that kid the whole time and even after.

[/ QUOTE ]

Theo, so far pretty much everybody who has played with you (that's posted in this thread) hasn't had the most pleasant things to say about you. Rather than try to act like everybody is just delusional and trying to tarnish your reputations, maybe you should just chill out with berating people (even when it's not overly rude) in general and nobody will say anything.

[/ QUOTE ]

Honestly it sounds like everyone who has played with Theo has bad things to say about him basically being unprofessional...which is odd, considering...and it seems as if Theo's game plan was to come on this forum and announce that all 26 accusations made against him were not only faulty but completely fabricated. Maybe everyone on 2p2 is the same person, and s/he is out to get you Theo /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[CaseS87]

Theo: (not a direct quote because I don't want to re listen to the radio show)

"Isaac is the kind of kid, if i saw him standing there, that I would just hit."

[Michaelson]

[ QUOTE ]
Theo: (not a direct quote because I don't want to re listen to the radio show)

"Isaac is the kind of kid, if i saw him standing there, that I would just hit."

[/ QUOTE ]

Glad someone posted this. There were no threats of violence, but everything Tran said on the show was laced with vitriol.

[namisgr]

[ QUOTE ]
Joe Sebok from the last podcast: "Well the thing that cracked me up is, you read the thread and people are going on about how I don't know what I'm doing and how bad I am... like people, if you're doing something professionally and you're able to make money at it, especially in a competitive environment--I'm not saying I'm the best by any means, I'm still learning the game--but trust me, I'm probably better than you if you're writing on a thread"

[/ QUOTE ]

I can understand that quoting Sebok from the radio show in this manner builds drama, but it is also bogus. His last sentence actually was: "I'm probably better than you if you're writing on a thread and aren't a professional player".

Theo Tran, on the other hand, came across to me as completely out of line.

Now back to your regularly scheduled soap, "As The Card Turns"

[fslexcduck]

theo, analyzation?

[bugstud]

ike rules. He remembered playing against me aeons ago in piddly ub games.

[Ghazban]

[ QUOTE ]
theo, analyzation?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would like to hear some analyzation of Rousso's aggressive calls.


Also, happy b-day duck

[MrTimCaum]

GAY IDIOT PRIDE


also, TOURNAMENTLIFE TOURNAMENTLIFE TOURNAMENTLIFE TOURNAMENTLIFE TOURNAMENTLIFE TOURNAMENTLIFE TOURNAMENTLIFE TOURNAMENTLIFE TOURNAMENTLIFE TOURNAMENTLIFE TOURNAMENTLIFE TOURNAMENTLIFE TOURNAMENTLIFE TOURNAMENTLIFE TOURNAMENTLIFE TOURNAMENTLIFE TOURNAMENTLIFE TOURNAMENTLIFE TOURNAMENTLIFE TOURNAMENTLIFE TOURNAMENTLIFE

[maryfield48]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Theo: (not a direct quote because I don't want to re listen to the radio show)

"Isaac is the kind of kid, if i saw him standing there, that I would just hit."

[/ QUOTE ]

Glad someone posted this. There were no threats of violence, but everything Tran said on the show was laced with vitriol.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dude, that is a threat of violence.

[Pudge714]

[ QUOTE ]
When did you see me laughing after your overcall with jacks there? Did i make fun of your play? Did I call you a donkey or any other names? When you called me and flipped jacks, it was an emotional reaction when i said "you called me with jacks" since i barely had you covered and my tournament life was basically on the line. At the final table after isaac doubled up lilholdem with aj, i joked to him that he (isaac) mustve put him on ace ten to be able to call with aj there. This is after i got into it with him and you. Im done wasting my time on you. I play day 1 tomorrow so if you have still have a problem with me, you can confront me then. Im done wasting my time with you on here.

[/ QUOTE ]

TOURNAMENT LIFEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE.
Also based on my online play with lilholdem calling all in with AJ vs. him is very good regardless of stacks or position.

[Mrnoluv]

What are you guys, like 10 years old? This is why I say there are only a few "Real Professional" players in the game. Sure there are the Tony G's/Phil's in the world, but for the most part "Real Professionals" that carry themselves as such, don't degrade others. They certainly don't snicker or have their friends bad mouth their opponents while playing or threaten them physically or question their manhood.

I see it all the time when I play online, someone sucksout or someone makes a bad play and another player calls him a Donk or rips into him. I always say, "I've never seen Doyle call someone a Donk". When's the last time you saw Howard Lederer call Phil Ivey an ass-clown?

To all you immature players that call yourselves "Pros", think about this; in what other profession besides the WWE would you hear two professionals degrade one another? At least there it's acting.

If you consider yourself professional or aspire to become one, conduct yourself as one. This is a great thread to show you just how immature radio show hosts, so called professional and internet poker players can be. If this represents even half of the professional/internet poker world, I'm glad I have a regular job.

[ICallHimGamblor]

[ QUOTE ]
I always say, "I've never seen Doyle call someone a Donk".

[/ QUOTE ]

"I should have known better than to bluff that idiot"

[Jonezycat]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I always say, "I've never seen Doyle call someone a Donk".

[/ QUOTE ]

"I should have known better than to bluff that idiot"

[/ QUOTE ]

You beat me to it

[TStoneMBD]

i stopped reading after the 100th post.

ive never played with sebok so i dont know if hes good or not, but ive heard from many sources who voluntarily say that hes a donk. one guy was even telling me about a hand in which joe called a huge bet with a gutshot or something with nowhere near correct odds. barry was actually at the table with joe and said something to the effect of "wtf is wrong with you?"

ps, im not voicing my own opinion, only sharing the little information i have.

[CaseS87]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I always say, "I've never seen Doyle call someone a Donk".

[/ QUOTE ]

"I should have known better than to bluff that idiot"

[/ QUOTE ]

You beat me to it

[/ QUOTE ]

[James282]

Theo, appreciate your apology. A far cry from Sebok's attitude towards the situation.

[Worm1313]

[ QUOTE ]
Theo, appreciate your apology. A far cry from Sebok's attitude towards the situation.

[/ QUOTE ]
From Sebok's blog, tonight:

“HaxtonGate 2007”
Who would have thought that a little blog I wrote would cause such uproar? I would like to nip this one in the bud, as I consider it to just be so ridiculous…

Let me be very clear about this, as I will only be writing it once…I meant absolutely no personal attack on Isaac whatsoever. If he, or anyone else, felt that I was making some sort of personal statement about him, then they are dead wrong. I simply made a comment about the play that he made against me, which I stand firmly behind, as I feel that it was a terrible play. Truth be told, I just shouldn’t have used an actual name in the blog, and then all of this wouldn’t be such an issue.

Upon a second reflection, I am quite sure that some of the frustration from this year’s WSOP close calls seeped into my writing and affected some of my comments, which lead to them being a bit more biting than they would usually be, which I definitely apologize for. Any name-calling by me was totally over-the-line and I, again, apologize for that as well, and that is 100% on me…

Of course, the attacks that I have received in the forums have been about 100x the intensity of any I have dished out, but that is neither here nor there, and probably not due to Haxton himself.

I can’t speak for Theo Tran, but my issue is 100% not personal and as far as I am concerned…over. In regards to the Tran interview, I in no way am trying to become a radio shock-jock and we, as a radio show, shouldn’t have let the [censored]-talking continue on as long as it did, and I take full blame in that as well. We all view the show as a bunch of us just hanging out and having fun, and that is honestly our strength. Unfortunately this one time, we let that mentality get out of hand and it was embarrassing. However, those who feel that we shouldn’t discuss what is going on in the poker world, such as this situation, and those who participate in it, well, there wouldn’t be a need for a radio show at all if we didn’t.

A thanks to Alex Jacob and Shane Schleger, whose comments got me to rethink my words and see some of the error of my writings…

So now, can’t we all just get along?

[Worm1313]

Also, it's hilarious that people are whining about "name-calling", when Isaac called Joe a "clown" in like the third post of this thread.

Be consistent, people.

[nath]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, it's hilarious that people are whining about "name-calling", when Isaac called Joe a "clown" in like the third post of this thread.

Be consistent, people.

[/ QUOTE ]
Because calling someone who criticizes your play a clown in response is totally the same thing as going on the radio saying you would hit him with your car if you saw him crossing the street.

Be consistent? You're the poster child for the saying "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds".

[mastr]

<3 nath. Also, I must say that regardless of motivations or anything else, I honestly did appreciate sebok's response, although I think he needs to be a hell of a lot more careful about what he allows to be said on his radio show, for legal reasons if nothing else

[Worm1313]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also, it's hilarious that people are whining about "name-calling", when Isaac called Joe a "clown" in like the third post of this thread.

Be consistent, people.

[/ QUOTE ]
Because calling someone who criticizes your play a clown in response is totally the same thing as going on the radio saying you would hit him with your car if you saw him crossing the street.

Be consistent? You're the poster child for the saying "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds".

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm in no way comparing the kind of things that were said.

My point is more that people complain about having class, respect, being a pro, etc... and calling someone a clown is neither of those things.

Also, I think it has to be taken into account that Theo is probably not used to doing radio and other media things, so he probably didn't even realize that the things he was saying were so bad. I'm not defending him in any way, because he was alot more forceful than Sebok. But this episode of Pokerwire Radio was the first that I have ever heard of Theo Tran, so it's clear that he may not be used to being in the public eye.

The ONLY reason the Sebok issue got blown out of proportion is because Isaac is a twoplustwo poster, and that can't be argued. I can't count how many times Joe (and even Gavin) have torn apart other people's games (Ray Davis, Ted Lawson, Marco Traniello, and I'm sure there's more). Thank God none of those guys post here, or Pokerwire Radio would no longer have an audience /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Dids]

The part that's weird is that while Joe's read enough of the forum to realize he went to far, he hasn't read or chosen to take to heart the parts that should make him realize his assessment of that play is likely incorrect.

[CaseS87]

Why does Joe keep saying that he only criticized the play of Isaac when that is pure BS? I'm pretty sure that he just flat out said that Isaac is an idiot on the radio show. That has nothing to do with his poker playing ability and is very personal.

[ReptileHouse]

[ QUOTE ]
or Pokerwire Radio would no longer have an audience

[/ QUOTE ]

They lost at least one for certain. I have no interest in listening to it anymore. I have a pretty thick skin and am embarrassingly entertained by gossip, so I'm a natural target for a show like that. There's a difference between good natured, and even edgy but still professional, gossip, story telling, et.al. and ill mannered trash talk. I lost interest in the latter around the 8th grade or so. I just don't find it amusing or entertaining in the slightest. Apparently they do.

The apology posted helps with regards to my assessment of Joe's character, which is a good thing. Kudos to him for posting that. It doesn't, however, change the fact that I'm no longer interested in Pokerwire.

[fleece_me]

[ QUOTE ]
I really wish you had said "Yeah, you're Greenstein's step kid from some forgotten marriage a long time ago right?"

[/ QUOTE ]

Kudos to this guy for riding the step-child of a famous person thing for all it's worth but has anyone listened to his hand analysis on that show? It is hideous.

Also what about the Fulltilt sit-n-go challenge he backed out on when that Sit-N-Go-Icons wizard started so strong that Joe S. and Andy Bloch just "forgot" they agreed to play, even though they played a few 1 tables for seemingly no reason?

Not only that, isn't Ike the guy with all the money stuck in Neteller? If anything pokerwire should be using their platform for helping make aware those that may not know about that [censored] up situation.

I think we know all we need to know about Mr Sebok from a very small sampling of his public behavior. Maybe he is a better person that he seems, but it looks doubtful.

[VespaRally]

[ QUOTE ]
The part that's weird is that while Joe's read enough of the forum to realize he went to far, he hasn't read or chosen to take to heart the parts that should make him realize his assessment of that play is likely incorrect.

[/ QUOTE ]

Truthiness.

[ QUOTE ]
"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds".

[/ QUOTE ]

Emerson – one of my favorites.

[Bond18]

Sebok comes out and realizes his mistake, and attempt to apologize to Ike/those offended. Okay fair enough.

However, based on his thought process/discussion of the hands he's clearly not very good at poker but believes himself to be, and for that i won't forgive him.

[Jeff76]

[ QUOTE ]
However, based on his thought process/discussion of the hands he's clearly not very good at poker but believes himself to be, and for that i won't forgive him.

[/ QUOTE ]Poker professionals giving bad advice on re-stealing on a public poker show is +++EV.

If he thinks that Ike's play was bad, no reason to continue badgering the man or trying to change his mind.

[PurifiedWater]

[ QUOTE ]
Kudos to this guy for riding the step-child of a famous person thing for all it's worth but has anyone listened to his hand analysis on that show? It is hideous.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I've listened to every episode of both shows that Sebok has been on and his hand analysis is interesting. He plays a style that has been extremely successful for him and it is a good learning tool. I don't really understand how you can say its hideous based on 2 hands. BTW do you happen to have almost 1.5 million in tourney cashes the past 3 years?

[ QUOTE ]
I think we know all we need to know about Mr Sebok from a very small sampling of his public behavior. Maybe he is a better person that he seems, but it looks doubtful.

[/ QUOTE ]
Hahahahahahahaha

[Cat]

[ QUOTE ]
I still dont like the kid

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
I was cool with that kid the whole time and even after.

[/ QUOTE ]

Arrrrghhhhh /images/graemlins/mad.gif Head asplode! How [censored] old is Theo Tran anyway? I think you need to be over 50 to start calling people 'the kid'.

On the plus side, NVG and WSOP gossip has been awesome this past week, I just can't keep up! /images/graemlins/heart.gif

[New2NL]

Something that really seems to stick out is level of competetiveness. Some of us deal with it really differently, I get so competetive that I get out of line just playing playstation, I watch AJ and Shane and just wish I could have that composure.

Guys like them are an example for everyone. When I started in tourney poker I was the same as Joe, I was competitive and obnoxious, more I played more I learned that I looked like a total goof.

[aislephive]

[ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I've listened to every episode of both shows that Sebok has been on and his hand analysis is interesting. He plays a style that has been extremely successful for him and it is a good learning tool. I don't really understand how you can say its hideous based on 2 hands. BTW do you happen to have almost 1.5 million in tourney cashes the past 3 years?

[/ QUOTE ]

Whoa, excellent point! So Jamie Gold > Phil Ivey then too right? After all, tournament winnings are the true measures of great poker players.

[BCM11]

I'm pretty sure Sebok 4 bet with KQ on the bubble and lost to AQ yet never admitted that was an idiotic play or a 'zero play' as he likes to coin it. gg joe

[Bavid Denyamine]

Any response from Ike about doing Pokerwire after the apologies and the invitation? That'd be pretty classy of Ike, imo.

[Emperor]

Sebo thinks it is funny to get 2+2 all riled up. Checkout hte $3M Rabbi prop bet thread.

His blog post is probably just a troll to get 2+2ers riled up again.

[EWS87]

the apology is acceptable...but I'm still not sold on Joe having any clue at the poker table.

he does not play side games, plays pretty limited online from what I understand, and I think has only been playing for 3 years. Someone please set the over/under on how much hands he has played that he says we are worse then him because he is a professional. I feel pretty confident I've played at least 4 times the amount of hands he has played

[New2NL]

[ QUOTE ]
Sebo thinks it is funny to get 2+2 all riled up. Checkout hte $3M Rabbi prop bet thread.

His blog post is probably just a troll to get 2+2ers riled up again.

[/ QUOTE ]

Could be a prop bet between him and his dad, who can generate the biggest gossip thread on 2+2.

[sublime]

[ QUOTE ]
BTW do you happen to have almost 1.5 million in tourney cashes the past 3 years?

[/ QUOTE ]

BTW do you realize how little that means? there are something like 20 WPT events alone at 5-10k(i think) a pop, not to mention numerous other side/smaller events ranging from 1-5 thousand a entry. honestly, 1.3 million in T winnings over three years could mean hes a losing MTT player for all you know.

[Mrnoluv]

[/ QUOTE ] honestly, 1.3 million in T winnings over three years could mean hes a losing MTT player for all you know.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? I think somone might have drank some crack juice this morning. 1.1 is losing???

[PurifiedWater]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
BTW do you happen to have almost 1.5 million in tourney cashes the past 3 years?

[/ QUOTE ]

BTW do you realize how little that means? there are something like 20 WPT events alone at 5-10k(i think) a pop, not to mention numerous other side/smaller events ranging from 1-5 thousand a entry. honestly, 1.3 million in T winnings over three years could mean hes a losing MTT player for all you know.

[/ QUOTE ]
Hmm lets break it down. Joe started playing all the WPTs and such in 2006 and he has won 1.1 million dollars since then.

2006- 875K
1st half of 2007 - 300K

Kinda looks like he might be a winning player unless he has a penchant for hookers and blow. Why don't you guys play some 10k tourneys against the best in the world and tell me how easy it is?

[PokeReader]

If someone was stupid enough to pay full buy-ins for all the 10K events they could easily spend 750K a year. Of course, Ike did not have the money to do this until his final table cash which was recent, and doesn't seem dumb enough to do this either.

[sellthekids]

from PokerNews:[ QUOTE ]

There was a call of "All in and call on Table 66!" and as the camera crews and reporters hacked their way across the room Isaac Haxton stood up and said, "Come watch me suck out on Nick Binger!"

Binger held A-K, Haxton had K-10, so a suckout it would take for Haxton to stay in the Main Event. And suck out he did--the flop came down {4-Diamonds}{Q-Diamonds}{10-Spades}, and Haxton hit another Ten on the river to add insult to injury. He's now up to 65,000.

[/ QUOTE ]

so are Binger and Haxton friends? or is this SOP?

[Mrnoluv]

[ QUOTE ]
from PokerNews:[ QUOTE ]

There was a call of "All in and call on Table 66!" and as the camera crews and reporters hacked their way across the room Isaac Haxton stood up and said, "Come watch me suck out on Nick Binger!"

Binger held A-K, Haxton had K-10, so a suckout it would take for Haxton to stay in the Main Event. And suck out he did--the flop came down {4-Diamonds}{Q-Diamonds}{10-Spades}, and Haxton hit another Ten on the river to add insult to injury. He's now up to 65,000.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure those two are friends, no way he says that after all these recent events, to someone he's not boys with.

[dontknower]

Seems to me that he (Sebok) was simply describing the situation as he saw it in a blog where he is pretty much committed to sharing with his readers how his tournament went, why, and his reaction to it. What would you have had him write?

This wasn't a passage in a book after all; it was something written for a blog (and mentioned, rather humourously in fact, on his internet radio show). Seems to me that the critics here are holding him to too high a standard; either that or are biased by their affection for the Haxman.

Anyway, the play can clearly be seen in many different ways (beauty of poker) and Sebok's is just one, and honestly can not be considered an awful one.

The guy is just trying to share his experience of going from an amateur to a full-time pro with those who are interested, and i'm not sure it's very classy to jump all over him for that; best i think, when you disagree, to just ignore him.

Besides, while there is no doubt that it furthers his career/fame and that he gets satisfaction from it, there seems a sincerity to the openness with which he lives his life. I for one am inclined to like the guy, seriously consider his perspectives, and certainly-- and most of all-- to appreciate his professional approach.

My two cents for what it's worth (make that 1.8 cents once the house gets their cut).

Edit: This post is not in fact a reply to Bavid Denyamine-- i'm just too much a forum newbie to figure out how to post a message without replying to someone else's.

<--- Forum Donkey

[dontknower]

[ QUOTE ]
How are we defining pro and why does Joe get to be one when Ike isn't?

As far as i can tell, "pro" tends to be whoever owns the wang that Cardplayer wants to mouthify.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think after a post like that you need to change your location to "229 lbs. of funniness."

p.s. I'm not that attracted to Cardplayer, but i'd let it mouthify me as long as it didn't expect it to lead to any kind of long-term relationship.