If you had more then $10k in neteller in 2006 but didn't pay taxes!! [Archive]

G-Diddy20

07-03-2007, 06:11 PM

I have had been in contact with several people on 2+2 who are in this partiular predicament so I figured this thread could help people like me or who are in a similar situation. I have checked through this forum and read several things but none that offered any kind of specific advice (if there is some point me to it because i missed it), so I thought soemthing like this might help in that regard.

Basically I started playing poker in February of last year with $200 bucks and made about $22k in 2006. Since then, I have spent some on small things here and there and have about $21k to my name. Half online and half in the bank.

I talked to several people around march and they all told me that paying taxes was the thing to do, but realistically, since I didn't do any transactions over $10k, buy any big purchases or invest any, that the chances of me being audited were 1% or less. Me being a college student and not wanting to pay 6k in taxes, I didn't file thinking I would be ok.

So now comes this neteller thing. I used neteller a lot but only had more then $10k one day and the amount was $12k. I moved it the day after.

So now here I am too late for the FBAR form and not having paid taxes. As of now I have $9900 or so in the bank, and th rest online. I am trying to decide what my best play here would be. It seems that in the past people on here have exaggerrated things when it comes to taxes from what other people tell me but I am a complete tax noob so I don't know.

I just don't want to get into a situation where I pay out the 4k in taxes if there is the same miniscule chance of me getting audited as there was before and the penalties are monetary, but it doesn't sound that way. If I am likely to go to jail or pay 6 figure fines as there was talk on here, then I would file late, obviously. I would like a REALISTIC prediction of the chances that I have if I don't do anything, and if something happens to me, the REALISTIC penalty for having 12k in there. Also, if I decide to report, should I just report the 12k that was in neteller or what? How about the FBAR form? Any tips and advice would help, and like i said, if you find yourself in a similar situation please chime in as it is likely that will get us better advice. Thanks in advance...

And btw, opinions are welcome, if you don't know for a fact thats ok, I welcome peoples opinons who are smarter and more experienced than I /images/graemlins/smile.gif

G

GDadsForever

07-03-2007, 06:21 PM

It would be helpful to know the penalty for filing late taxes.

If you (or anyone) were to come clean with the FBAR and regular taxes, albeit late, what would be the ultimate result.

daryn

07-03-2007, 07:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Me being a college student and not wanting to pay 6k in taxes, I didn't file thinking I would be ok.

[/ QUOTE ]

i love this. i stole that TV because, me being a college student, didn't feel like paying $2k for it.

GDadsForever

07-03-2007, 07:48 PM

With all due respect, Daryn, do you have any helpful answers?

daryn

07-03-2007, 08:00 PM

no, sorry. i'll go back into my hole

G-Diddy20

07-03-2007, 08:15 PM

i wasn't saying the reason I didn't pay was because i felt i was an invulnerable college student. i figured not paying the $6k was "the +EV" if you will, play because people had told me that there was realistically a small chance that anything would happen to me. if something even did happen,that it would be just some fines. i thought it was the right move at the time, and i still think it is was weighing the pros and cons of each choice. but throw that all out the window now with this neteller ordeal.

i guess you never did anything dumb in college daryn?

Homer

07-03-2007, 08:16 PM

This kind of stuff makes me realize that I'm probably far less likely to be audited than I think.

Anyway, best policy is to file an amended return and pay the taxes you owe.

GDadsForever

07-03-2007, 08:27 PM

Is there a penalty for this 'amended return'? Obviously it is past its due date.

Homer

07-03-2007, 08:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Is there a penalty for this 'amended return'? Obviously it is past its due date.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are penalties involved I am sure, but I don't know how to compute the amount.

Also, you should probably file FBAR late as well.

I'm no expert, hopefully a tax professional will answer the question in more detail.

depokerstar

07-03-2007, 09:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Is there a penalty for this 'amended return'? Obviously it is past its due date.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. As I understand it, the penalty starts from the day the tax was due. So everyday it is "late", interest is accruing.

I think anyone that doesn't file for 2006 and that doesn't file the FBAR paperwork is not too bright. Forensic accountants put into action by the DOJ have YOUR Neteller records. I just can't believe at this point anyway that the Neteller saga has drawn out this far just to prosecute the former owners.

I hate paying taxes, as much or more than the next guy, but not paying for 2006 is not worth the next few years (3?) of thinking an audit could happen. And if that audit did happen, you knowingly did not pay taxes. Claiming ignornace for the FBAR might be one thing, but that won't hold water for your taxes.

G-Diddy20

07-03-2007, 09:06 PM

depokerstar, do u have any idea how much the fact that the DOJ has our neteller records increases the chances of an individual audit? For example, my parents accountant told me in his honest opinion before this whole neteller thing happened that there was likely a 1% or less chance of me being audited based on what i told him, same stuff i put in the OP. anyone have a guess as to what they think it is now?

G

depokerstar

07-03-2007, 09:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
depokerstar, do u have any idea how much the fact that the DOJ has our neteller records increases the chances of an individual audit? For example, my parents accountant told me in his honest opinion before this whole neteller thing happened that there was likely a 1% or less chance of me being audited based on what i told him, same stuff i put in the OP. anyone have a guess as to what they think it is now?

G

[/ QUOTE ]

I have no idea and wouldn't make a % guess. I can just say that in my case, it's not worth it. You being a college student with less assets, income, etc might feel differently.

And I agree with your family's accountant. But maybe the DOJ or other agencies think that as well. I'd guess there's almost an endless supply of non-filers, whether it be state or local, regarding gambling taxes.

joker122

07-03-2007, 09:42 PM

"It seems that in the past people on here have exaggerrated things when it comes to taxes from what other people tell me but I am a complete tax noob so I don't know.
"

absolutely. people are idiots.

but i don't understand how or why you would neglect to pay taxes on '06 winnings when we knew Neteller turned over all records to the DOJ BEFORE april...

also, the notion that you would goto jail because you didn't pay tax on 22k of income is laughable. the IRS is in the business of getting money from people, not locking people up. if you're in jail, you can't pay, and all they want is to be paid.

and you would be right about not filing being the +ev play however the whole DOJ thing made it decidedly -ev imo.

joker122

07-03-2007, 09:45 PM

TheEngineer

07-03-2007, 09:47 PM

I don't know the odds of getting audited, but making numerous posts on a public board about not paying can't reduce the odds.

Legislurker

07-03-2007, 10:03 PM

You're right to look at it in terms of EV. Basically, you get
one [censored] up with the IRS if you contact them beforehand. Get a tax ATTORNEY, file late, and pay. You can choose an offer/compromise route if its beyond your ability to pay, but that sort of screws up using it later. If this is bothering you, pay an attorney for a consultation, and do what he says, and get something in writing from the IRS. Its going to cost you though.

godofgamblers

07-03-2007, 11:22 PM

I have a lot of transactions in 2006, but overall it was not a fun year. Only ended up 6-7k. Didn't bother reporting it since I get all my income tax back anyway, but I'll definitely report 2007 since I'm well over 25k since. Would it be smart to file amended for the 6-7k (whored a LOT in the beginning of the year (i.e. a billion $50-200 deposits and $50-$300 withdrawals) so it'll be a huge hassle of actually reporting for how much I actually earned). The basic attitude for this was <10k = no need to worry, but since I'm reporting this year (2007) and they have access to my Neteller records since before then, would it be the prudent thing to do now?

G-Diddy20

07-04-2007, 12:43 AM

[ QUOTE ]
"It seems that in the past people on here have exaggerrated things when it comes to taxes from what other people tell me but I am a complete tax noob so I don't know.
"

absolutely. people are idiots.

but i don't understand how or why you would neglect to pay taxes on '06 winnings when we knew Neteller turned over all records to the DOJ BEFORE april...

also, the notion that you would goto jail because you didn't pay tax on 22k of income is laughable. the IRS is in the business of getting money from people, not locking people up. if you're in jail, you can't pay, and all they want is to be paid.

and you would be right about not filing being the +ev play however the whole DOJ thing made it decidedly -ev imo.

[/ QUOTE ]

really? it increased the chance of an audit that much to make it -EV? i certainly believe you, just mad at myself for not seeing this coming. I didn't know that they were getting turned in til after the april tax deadline, my fault for not staying on the ball. So, in your guys opinions, would it be smart to just pay taxes on the $12k and change that I had in neteller, or would you guys pay for it all $22k?

The only reason I even mentioned jail was because the links people were giving in the threads in this forum said that not filing the FBAR would likely lead to jail time.

Also, I would like to hear the most likely worst case scenario of what could happen if I didn't do anything at all. Would it be like a small monetary fine for not filing or what?

Please understand that I am just trying to avoid a situation where I am paying taxes on the $22k for whatever it would be, $2800, but the penalty would only be slightly more money and the chance of getting caught was less than >5%. I appreciate again all your guys help and please understand where I am coming from.

Your advice so far has been very helpful...

G

Rabid_Hippo

07-04-2007, 01:59 AM

The posters saying that you won't go to jail for tax fraud/tax evasion are dead wrong. You should file your taxes and claim every penny you earn (and take all appropriate deductions).

By the way, in the event you are investigated for tax fraud/tax evasion, the posts you put on this website are admissible against you as evidence of intent to commit fraud. The IRS does not have a sense of humor regarding these things.

The taxes, interest and penalties are what they are, and you are obligated to pay them. That is the only "advice" you need.

1meandog4u

07-04-2007, 05:08 AM

[ QUOTE ]
And btw, opinions are welcome, if you don't know for a fact thats ok, I welcome peoples opinons who are smarter and more experienced than I /images/graemlins/smile.gif

G

[/ QUOTE ]

I concur with one of the previous posters. I "doubt" you would be penalized much, if any, on the foreign bank issue. Ignorance might be a sincere approach on that one, especially given your age.

On the tax issue, forgetting the morality issue, you are now in the best position possible to file late, pay the taxes and/or penalties. Get ALL the legitimate deductions. Definitely find a good tax accountant preferably with gambling experience.

Remember since you are a college student, if this was your only basic income to report, the taxes owed, and penalties will be a lot less than most.

Do you really want to spend three years, seven in the case of fraud, sleepless worrying about an audit? Since you appear to be a decent winning player, I assume you will play in the future. Want a past issue like 2006 to haunt you for years? And if you are EVER audited, think of the consequences of them digging back into passed year taxes.

Not worth the "gamble" to pardon a pun. If that is your income, less than $25k for the year, with deductions, you could reduce that severely.. Remember all those trips to Vegas? Ever lose any money there? Document it with dates, and if you ever used a player's card to play games, they will give you a print out for last year, of the activity. You might be surprized how much you can deduct with a good accountant.

Good luck. It's not a matter of doing the "right thing", it's a matter of doing the smart thing.

emptyshell

07-04-2007, 06:19 AM

It's very unlikely you will get audited or ever have to pay if you don't speak up. For me, though, it was worth paying anyway to avoid having to worry about it. As you get older, you realize that the lack of worries and concerns is actually worth quite a bit of money.

Although the small dollar amounts you mention make it very unlikely you'll have to think about jail time, you definitely would have to think about it if you did similar things in the future with larger sums. Conscious negligence is much less likely to be forgived then a simple mistake.

PokeReader

07-04-2007, 06:58 AM

Please read the long thread on FBAR's. FBAR penalties can be worse than tax evasion. There is no non-fine for failure to properly file FBAR, if you meet 4-part test will still be fined 5-10% of account max. If a FBAR filer used his account to evade taxes, you cannot qualify for unwilling FBAR status, and hit the 50% of account max or 100K whichever is more. Furthermore, no one is sure, as there is no available FBAR extension that FBAR penalties will not accure to late filers. Hopeful unlikely, but IRS has not given guidance on this.

You need to contact a tax attorney, not a CPA. A tax attorney is allowed to advise you if you are better off if you file late...., or some other way. Be sure that you are aware you can only net if you are filing as a professional gambler. Otherwise you must file on winnings only. Seek professional advice people. Especially if you did something you shouldn't have. Max. penalty for FBAR: 10 years and/or $500,000. Don't be surprised if they use this to punish some big fish who should have been smarter to further frighten off the fish from internet gambling. Also, I don't know if they will pursue it, but there are FBAR implications for peer-to-peer transfers. Read the thread.

G-Diddy20

07-04-2007, 01:20 PM

how much on average would it be to speak with a tax attorney?

1meandog4u

07-04-2007, 05:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
how much on average would it be to speak with a tax attorney?

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not saying it will do you any good, but this link might work for you to email the gentleman.

http://www.gamblingandthelaw.com/

This is the site of Nelson Rose, argueably one of the leading attorneys on tax/gambling related issues. Just keep the emotion out of the email and state the facts, he may reply and give you suggestions. He is in So. California FWIW.

drtofu66

07-04-2007, 06:17 PM

Nothing specific to your situation, but it explains the whole FBAR and tax thing a little more

http://www.thepokerchronicles.com/archives/000902.html

jrbick

07-04-2007, 11:36 PM

I haven't read all responses, but I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that I don't think you could go wrong by just filing everything ASAP.

- hire tax attorney who will probably advise you to:
- file your taxes, send payment
- file the foreign account thingy even though it's late.
- suck up w/e penalties you incur.

At best you eat penalties and still come out w/ 2-4k left over. At worst, well, at least you showed some sort of "good faith effort" even if it was kind of late. Might at least keep you out of jail.

For the future, it's best not to frig around w/ this stuff.

Legislurker

07-05-2007, 12:12 AM

I paid $120 for a consultation. Could vary state to state as lawyers are pretty socialist about rates being set by state bars, or if he is a full time settle tax debt attorney he may even be free for consulting(depending on your debt or expected debt level). I think the number we came up EV wise was 50k in assets to do an offer/compromise at, but this was 3 years ago. My sense is with the other people recommending you moving first, lesson learned, jail avoided. The chances may not be large, but jail is like being broke in a tourney, except its life.

G-Diddy20

07-05-2007, 12:18 AM

u really think that all i will have left over from 22k is 2k after paying taxes late, filing that form late, and penalties. i really hope that is not the case!!!

anyway, i am going to talk to my family's accountant tomorrow and am planning on printing out all my records for neteller for 2006. I actually had $14,150 in there at the most, and that was in October. I also plan on asking him about the FBAR form and probably filling it out late. Does anyone have any idea how much they think I will pay after all is said and done with that amount ($14,150) being reported, penalties and all? I'm assuming I would be in the lowst bracket, 15%. I ballparked it around $2300. What's everyone think?

1meandog4u

07-05-2007, 04:26 AM

[ QUOTE ]
u really think that all i will have left over from 22k is 2k after paying taxes late, filing that form late, and penalties. i really hope that is not the case!!!

anyway, i am going to talk to my family's accountant tomorrow and am planning on printing out all my records for neteller for 2006. I actually had $14,150 in there at the most, and that was in October. I also plan on asking him about the FBAR form and probably filling it out late. Does anyone have any idea how much they think I will pay after all is said and done with that amount ($14,150) being reported, penalties and all? I'm assuming I would be in the lowst bracket, 15%. I ballparked it around $2300. What's everyone think?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's probably a fair estimate but....

It seems you're still trying to base this on your balances, not your activity/actual profit. IF you get audited, more apt to happen with a late/penalized filing, and they open up your records, or demand them... you're in a heap of trouble. Filing late, then deliberately falsifying your income. Like we've all said, "Suck it up" and declare what you feel is an approximate income, even if you estimate slightly on the low side. See your tax accountant. Pay what you owe and get this damn thing behind you.

You are trying to nickel and dime the IRS. If you are going to file, then do it right, or don't declare anything and take your chances... I do NOT advise that. But, partially doing the right thing... is like almost being pregnant. You are, or you aren't...

I'm one of them "old farts". I far from know everything. However, been audited. Not fun, but I was cleared and could verify everything being questioned. You're young, and have your whole life in front of you. If you build your life on a sand foundation, nothing good can come of it.

Good luck whatever you decide.

swarm

07-05-2007, 10:30 AM

G-Diddy,

I have a friend in an almost identical situation except that he also has a job so his income level is a little higher. He did file is FBAR on time though.

I referred him to my tax attorney and this is what he found out.On about 20k of net income (35k wins 15k losses) his responsible tax was around 4-5k within his 20% tax bracket.

The interest is 6% on the three months his filling an ammended return with late income (A couple hundred bucks). His penalty was around $150.

He also had to pay some additional to the state but I don't know what that is. Probably around 1k i guess.

Attorney fees were a couple hundred bucks. All in all it won't cost you that much more versus had you filed in April.

Just get it done, you have the funds.

G-Diddy20

07-05-2007, 10:40 AM

i think my dad claimed me as a dependant on his taxes...what should i do about that?

Poker CPA

07-05-2007, 11:11 AM

"Do you really want to spend three years, seven in the case of fraud, sleepless worrying about an audit?"

This is what Al Copone's tax accountant and tax attorney thought too. Seven years, not even close. Try "for the rest of your life". If you file by July 15th add about 25% for interest and penalties; August 15th, 30%; Sept 15th. 35%; and add 1% for each month thereafter. These are estimates but should be fairly close.

Jail time is not a factor, but file the taxes ASAP.

PokeReader

07-05-2007, 11:24 AM

Look, Diddy, please ready my, (and other,) long posts in the FBAR thread. You should really try to consult a tax attorney because one, you have significant FBAR liability. (If you use your FBAR for criminal purposes, and/or the IRS levies a penalty against you for tax evasion, and/or if you violated FBAR in the past, and/or do not cooperate with the investigation, (any of the above), you do not just have a late filing problem. You have a minimum of a willing FBAR violation, meaning 100K, or 50% of the account, whichever is more, plus your tax penalty, and as the IRS considers internet poker another criminal tax evasion scheme, you might have more liability, depending on how they choose to handle it. I would be very cautious in your situation.

If you consult a tax accountant, they are legally required to tell you to immediately file. However, a tax attorney can tell you what is in your best interest, (or likely to be), and will be able to maintain a confidential relationship.

There is alot of information posted in the other FBAR thread. It is the best place to go. But as a general thing, if you have paid all your taxes on time, have all the proper record, (you must maintain FBAR records for 5 years), and marked Schedule B, and are filing late, or did not mark Schedule B, the IRS would be entitled to fine you, no one is sure if they will. There is no official IRS guidance on this, see article in previous post. If you owe taxes and are late, you have a much more substantial problem, you are very vunerable, as Title 26 protections do not apply to FBAR's. There is also a tax attorney's article about this situation, and the in previous post. If you have not filed be sure to do your homework. There is an arguement about Constructive Receipt and Neteller, this will only apply if you have not paid taxes. You should be aware of it, and know what decision your tax preparer has regarding this issue.

iceman5

07-05-2007, 12:51 PM

My brother in law owes the IRS over $100K from non payment / underpayment of taxes over the past several years. Hes NOT going to jail. They are working on payment options.

Whoever in this thread said or thinks that OP has ANY chance of going to jail over this is a moron.

That being said,
OP,

Pay your taxes.

Russ Fox

07-05-2007, 01:20 PM

A couple of weeks ago I listened to an IRS teleconference on FBAR/foreign bank account reporting. Note that none of what I'm about to write is specific tax advice; you should, if you're impacted by this, consult your own professional tax adviser as everyone's situation is different.

The IRS was asked what would happen if someone hasn't reported a prior year and needs to. Would they receive a penalty/fine? In response, the IRS representatives stated that the goal is not to fine non-willful violators who come into voluntary compliance with FBAR. [emphasis added] The IRS stated that anyone filing late (or filing a prior year) should attach a letter to their TD F 90-22.1 explaining why their filing was late (e.g. I didn't know about the requirement). Note that you may also need to amend your tax return to include Schedule B.

So what does this mean? If you had $12,000 at Neteller and have just now found out about the filing requirement, you're probably safe in filing the TD F 90-22.1 late, attaching an explanation, and amending your tax return to show the foreign bank account on Schedule B. (Note that the TD F 90-22.1 is mailed to Detroit, and an amended tax return will be mailed to some other address.)

However, if you had a very large balance at Neteller, and you knew about the FBAR requirements and just decided "I'll ignore this" (e.g. you are a willful violator), you may wish to consult with an attorney.

Finally, as to the chance of an audit by filing this form, no one knows for this year. Years ago, it was close to 100% (by filing TD F 90-22.1). However, because so many are filing this form, the percentage has lowered significantly in the past couple of years (at least as far as I and other professionals I've talked to about this can tell). Given that even more individuals are going to file this form for 2006, it is impossible for the IRS to audit 100% of new filers--they just don't have the manpower.

Finally, these are not the kind of audits that will occur six months after you file the return--they typically happen 18 to 30 months after you file your return.

-- Russ Fox (EA)

G-Diddy20

07-05-2007, 03:57 PM

I have a meeting Tuesday with our family accountant and am going to bring my neteller records printed out and inform him of the money I won and get everything filed in and pay any penalties and get this damn thing off my chest. Thanks for all the help and advice.

G

jasonfish11

07-05-2007, 05:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I have a meeting Tuesday with our family accountant and am going to bring my neteller records printed out and inform him of the money I won and get everything filed in and pay any penalties and get this damn thing off my chest. Thanks for all the help and advice.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good choice. I was going to point you in the direction of a tax forum just like this but made for tax questions not poker. Paying the money and penalties are the way to go.

Here is the tax forum incase you want to ask some people there. I can almost gaurantee they will tell you to pay. But they could give you a VERY good estimate on penalties and actual payment amount.
http://moneycentral.msn.com/community/message/board.asp?board=TaxCorner

Chillum

07-05-2007, 07:52 PM

You only have to file if you had 10k at ONE TIME in neteller correct?

jrbick

07-05-2007, 08:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You only have to file if you had 10k at ONE TIME in neteller correct?

[/ QUOTE ]

incorrect. aggregate total is what they are looking for. in other words, the total of all deposits.

FullyTilted

07-05-2007, 08:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You only have to file if you had 10k at ONE TIME in neteller correct?

[/ QUOTE ]

incorrect. aggregate total is what they are looking for. in other words, the total of all deposits.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you absolutely certain of this? This does not match my (limited) understanding, which is that the form must be submitted if the aggregate balances exceeded $10k at any time in 2006.

depokerstar

07-05-2007, 10:35 PM

jrbick

07-05-2007, 10:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You only have to file if you had 10k at ONE TIME in neteller correct?

[/ QUOTE ]

incorrect. aggregate total is what they are looking for. in other words, the total of all deposits.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you absolutely certain of this? This does not match my (limited) understanding, which is that the form must be submitted if the aggregate balances exceeded $10k at any time in 2006.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess i can't say I'm "absolutely certain of this" since the IRS uses different terminology.

FBAR Requirements (http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=148849,00.html)

The qualifications for filing are:

1.The person has financial interest in, signature authority or other authority over one or more accounts in a foreign country, and
2.The value of the account exceeds $10,000 at any time during the calendar year.

I'm fairly certain that #2 would be the aggregate. On the form they ask for maximum value of the account.

FullyTilted

07-05-2007, 11:49 PM

FullyTilted

07-05-2007, 11:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You only have to file if you had 10k at ONE TIME in neteller correct?

[/ QUOTE ]

incorrect. aggregate total is what they are looking for. in other words, the total of all deposits.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you absolutely certain of this? This does not match my (limited) understanding, which is that the form must be submitted if the aggregate balances exceeded $10k at any time in 2006.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess i can't say I'm "absolutely certain of this" since the IRS uses different terminology.

FBAR Requirements (http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=148849,00.html)

The qualifications for filing are:

1.The person has financial interest in, signature authority or other authority over one or more accounts in a foreign country, and
2.The value of the account exceeds $10,000 at any time during the calendar year.

I'm fairly certain that #2 would be the aggregate. On the form they ask for maximum value of the account.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's the maximum aggregate value of all accounts, not the aggregate of deposits (unless, of course, you start the year at $0 and never withdraw). For example, if you deposit $1000 into your account every Tuesday for an entire year, and withdraw $1000 every Friday, the sum of your deposits is $52k. However, your balance - the value of your account - never gets to the $10k trigger.