Pretty Typical Situation from the SB

[Poseidon65]

I feel like this kind of situation arises a lot at $25 NL. You're on the SB, and either the CO or the Button limps (the other folds). So it's $0.15 to you with the BB behind. How strong a hand do you need here to call?

If you assume the BB never raises, then we're getting 5 to 1 by calling. I guess that means we'd want to call with any two cards (though our position is bad, this should be taken into account somehow).

If the BB raises some of the time, clearly we need better cards to call. So what are your standards for how strong a hand you need to play in this spot? Will you play any two cards?

[wildzer0]

Depends on the button, if I know the button is open limping junk, I'll raise with suited aces, small pairs, that sort of thing. I'll complete with suited broadways, sometimes suited connectors.Basically hands where it's going to be pretty obvious where I stand on the flop. I generally play very tight from the SB.

[Poseidon65]

This part I understand (when to raise), what I'm less clear is when you have a very marginal hand, when to complete the bet, and when to just fold. So if the button limps and you look down at 42o, do you complete or fold? How about 95o?

[wildzer0]

I fold all those junk hands, my completing range is very tight. It's that whole reverse implied odds thing.

[Restlys]

OK, you raise to 5x the bb

Ask yourself, what kinda players limp in on the button??
ill tell you : TOTAL DONKS
BB never defend their blinds, and button will fold 9 out of 10 times
SB, BB used to be my most negative positions to play, since ive addopted this technique theyre my most profitable, i make more profit on them than even the button -

Recipe : raise 5x BB and if you get R then check your HR so you have something decent, cant help you there it nearly never happens to me -
Then flop comes, Whatever it is EXCEPT paired/ flush draw boards ( 3h, 3h, xx) you cbet, now this is the tricky part, he will call most of the time, cbet again on the turn and win the hand

Now you need a bit of intuition to know when not to do this play on flop/tun obv you want to look down at high texture boards but the thing is most of the time you win pf, then you have total deception value, then the cbet fold % is high enough to break even and then some

hope this works for you and i hope this works for me too, ive been doing this for about 10 k hands, will see 50k hands from now how good it actually is.. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Poseidon65]

Wow, so you'll raise it even with total trash? I agree that limping from the button is a complete donk move ($25 NL has plenty of donks).

I just looked at my PT stats and see that over 10k hands, I lost a lot more from the SB than from the BB. 10k hands isn't a lot, but that seems like a pretty lousy result.

[Rollos]

Um just to let you know everybody has a negative winrate in the blinds.

[bored]

[ QUOTE ]
OK, you raise to 5x the bb

Ask yourself, what kinda players limp in on the button??
ill tell you : TOTAL DONKS
BB never defend their blinds, and button will fold 9 out of 10 times
SB, BB used to be my most negative positions to play, since ive addopted this technique theyre my most profitable, i make more profit on them than even the button -

Recipe : raise 5x BB and if you get R then check your HR so you have something decent, cant help you there it nearly never happens to me -
Then flop comes, Whatever it is EXCEPT paired/ flush draw boards ( 3h, 3h, xx) you cbet, now this is the tricky part, he will call most of the time, cbet again on the turn and win the hand

Now you need a bit of intuition to know when not to do this play on flop/tun obv you want to look down at high texture boards but the thing is most of the time you win pf, then you have total deception value, then the cbet fold % is high enough to break even and then some

hope this works for you and i hope this works for me too, ive been doing this for about 10 k hands, will see 50k hands from now how good it actually is.. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I have a feeling this is going to catch up to you...

OP, I fold all junk hands in that spot.

[jessyj07]

As a standard I complete Axs/Kxs/suited connectors(45s+)/one suited gapped connectors(57s+). Depending how bad the limper(s) are I'll complete worse drawing hands like 67o/79o.

[Bantam222]

[ QUOTE ]
Um just to let you know everybody has a negative winrate in the blinds.

[/ QUOTE ]
its very possible to be +ev from the blinds at the lower levels.


Your calling range from the SB should also depend on how good of a postflop player you are. If you have good reads on your opponents you can play a wide range and make money, if you suck post flop and tend to get attached to middle pair, you should play very tight from the blinds to stay out of marginal situations.

[Poseidon65]

This is true, but I'd think it's uncommon to be losing more from the SB than from the BB.

[relativity_x]

yeah, I lose like a mother from the bb.

[C4LL4W4Y]

Grunch...has a lot to do with stack sizes and if I think whether or not BB and limper can pay off a big hand in a limped pot.

[Poseidon65]

Any other thoughts? I feel like this is a really common situation.

[molotom]

I think this situation depends mainly on reads, such as how readily the others stack off in limped pots, whether they will play fit-or-fold when you raise, etc.

If in doubt, just complete with your speculative hands... any two broadway, suited connectors/gappers, etc. Think carefully before raising here, it can easily get you into a sticky situation. On the button, anything goes, but getting out of line in the SB is a recipe for trouble IMO.

[cooker3]

At 30k hands at 25nl I am up $101 or 0.03 bb/100 in the sb and down $537 or 0.18 bb in the big blind , my only losing position in fact.
So is this unusual?

[molotom]

[ QUOTE ]
At 30k hands at 25nl I am up $101 or 0.03 bb/100 in the sb and down $537 or 0.18 bb in the , my only losing position in fact.
So is this unusual?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's pretty hard to draw conclusions from positional stats like this. Remember that 30k hands total means around 5K in each blind, which is a very small sample size. I don't think a positive BB/hand in the blinds is sustainable long-term unless you are crushing the games... you are forced to put in a bet blind, and have poor position, so you are doubly disadvantaged.

[StubbornRussian]

Suited connectors, suited aces, and broadway for me. The broadway cards I am playing for a broadway straight or broadway boat since overbetting these hands on the river will induce some bad calls from bad villains. And I am getting away from top pair if my flop bet gets called and i dont improve or if somebody not loose raises in front of me. I widen the range if there are villains limping there overpairs and they have a decent stack. I think an sb winrate is easily sustainable at 25nl, 50 nl not so much.

[bluffbetter]

[ QUOTE ]
At 30k hands at 25nl I am up $101 or 0.03 bb/100 in the sb and down $537 or 0.18 bb in the big blind , my only losing position in fact.
So is this unusual?

[/ QUOTE ]

In 3200 big blinds at NL25 I'm down $189.38 or -0.06$/hand and I'v e raised preflop 5.35% of the time.

In 3270 small blinds at NL25 I'm up $51.72 or 0.02$/hand and I raise preflop 12.02%