Hey uNL

[fees]

Hey uNL,
I've been poking around your threads lately, and I've noticed that most of you guys are 3betting way too small.
I know that you guys want to get value from you're hands, but you are giving them way too good odds to draw.

As a rule of thumb

in position agaisnt an open of...
3 BB's make it 11 BB's (so if I'm playing NL25 and someone raises to .75, I raise to 2.75)
3.5 BB's make it 12 BB's
4 BB's make it 13 BB's
5 BB's make it 15 BB's

in the case you are from the blinds or out of position:

3 BB's make it 13 BB's
3.5 BB's make it 14 BB's
4 BB's make it 15 BB's
5 BB's make it 16 BB's


also if you aren't doing it already, try and read SSNL as much as possible

hope this helps

[fees]

I'm bumping this.. I think its important

[relativity_x]

HEY FEES! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Jago]

so 3-4x their raise? If there's 1 CCer does it become 4-5x the initial raise? Does this only apply to PF or the entire hand?

[Shoe Lace]

Yep, this should be incorporated into one of the existing sticky guides.

I had this problem when I initially started. Big hands that I would 3bet were getting mangled by trash. Now I find myself picking up a lot of pots with a cbet, or taking their stack when I hit a set/etc (people love to put more money into a big pot with a marginal hand).

[ QUOTE ]
so 3-4x their raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

For the most part yes. Example @ NL5:

Say 1 guy limps, and someone in MP raises to 25c. You're in the SB with rockets. Raise it up to about 85c-$1.

If you all have 100BBs, and he calls with 77 and doesn't improve, he'll fold pretty much guaranteed especially if there are more than 1 over card. Tons of people will call, then give up if they don't improve -- even when their odds are horrible preflop.

It also lets you get your big hands in preflop if they happen to really have a hand. If you all have $5 stacks, and you re-raise to $1. What's he going to do with QQ/KK here? Raising is to $2.5 or $3.5 would be silly, he'll shove.

[dimeetrees]

Yea I've been trying to do this, but I find that If I feel the original raiser might not call me and I have a big pair I make it 3x his raise to induce a call.

[fees]

[ QUOTE ]
so 3-4x their raise? If there's 1 CCer does it become 4-5x the initial raise? Does this only apply to PF or the entire hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

only prf.. if there is a limper and they make it 5 instead of 4 or 4.5 instead of 3.5 then just adjust your betsize, refer to the chart

[Jago]

Okay say in a 25NL game, utg raises to $1, btn cold calls, I'm in the SB with KK, I should re-raise to $4.5 as a default move? Sorry for the newb questions, just started playing NL properly tonight

[fees]

[ QUOTE ]
Yea I've been trying to do this, but I find that If I feel the original raiser might not call me and I have a big pair I make it 3x his raise to induce a call.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the thinking that gets you into trouble, normally these guys don't can't tell the difference if its the difference of a couple big blinds, but it makes all the difference in the world to us. By using this betsizing it makes it impossible for people to setmine/draw out on our likely best hand profitably (not to say it cant happen, but longterm its harder to exploit)

It also helps us get more $ in faster, if they call it will make it harder for them to fold postflop due to potodds

also if you 3bet like min or really small they know exactly what you have and will play accordingly.. the thinking tag's at you're level will use it to your disadvantage.. some of the other players might not notice (or just assume all 3 bets are AA/KK)

Also this helps when you 3 bet other hands (88-jj, sc's, AK/AQ) .. since the betsizing is all the same, they don't know where you're at, which makes you more difficult to play agaisnt.

ALSO .. 1 more thing..

if you repop AK/AQ (ESPECIALLY OOP) and you wiff.. unless your player is weak postflop, PLEASE CHECK... I find players get into this obsession with taking down pots they repop with and its definitly -ev.. in these situations you want to c/f or c/c, if you think you're opponent is very aggressive or capable of going after these pots, I would recomend calling atleast one street

[fees]

[ QUOTE ]
Okay say in a 25NL game, utg raises to $1, btn cold calls, I'm in the SB with KK, I should re-raise to $4.5 as a default move? Sorry for the newb questions, just started playing NL properly tonight

[/ QUOTE ]

squeezing is different.. I normally just betpot if its 4 BB's... betpot +1 or 2 BB's if its a 3bb or 3.5bb INITIAL raise

[netstorm]

Just use a potsize raise (i.e. double the amount of the PFR + original amount of PFR + money thats already in the pot(SB, BB, limper, w/e)

So at $50nl, if UTG raises to $2, and you're in the CO, you make it $4 + $2 + $0,50 + $0,25 = $6,75.

Also, fees, I disagree about your betsizing. Why would you want to make a bigger raise when you are out of position ? I dont know what your reasoning for that might be? Perhaps that you will take the pot faster than a less big raise, but what is 1 or 2 BB gonna make a difference against a strong hand? A marginal hand will fold to a 3bet anyway, be it 11BB or 13BB. And if you're up against a big hand, you are OOP in a bigger pot than you should've been... This is mostly pointed towayds the TAGs, since they will the players that you are most likely to be 3-betting light.

I'd love to hear your reasoning behind this.

[Jago]

[ QUOTE ]
Just use a potsize raise (i.e. double the amount of the PFR + original amount of PFR + money thats already in the pot(SB, BB, limper, w/e)

[/ QUOTE ]
so 3x the pfr + dead money? /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[fees]

[ QUOTE ]
Just use a potsize raise (i.e. double the amount of the PFR + original amount of PFR + money thats already in the pot(SB, BB, limper, w/e)

So at $50nl, if UTG raises to $2, and you're in the CO, you make it $4 + $2 + $0,50 + $0,25 = $6,75.

Also, fees, I disagree about your betsizing. Why would you want to make a bigger raise when you are out of position ? I dont know what your reasoning for that might be? Perhaps that you will take the pot faster than a less big raise, but what is 1 or 2 BB gonna make a difference against a strong hand? A marginal hand will fold to a 3bet anyway, be it 11BB or 13BB. And if you're up against a big hand, you are OOP in a bigger pot than you should've been... This is mostly pointed towayds the TAGs, since they will the players that you are most likely to be 3-betting light.

I'd love to hear your reasoning behind this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well first of all.. you should only be raising from the blinds (oop) with storng hands.. even open raising, I normally make it like 5bbs+1 for each limper.. here are the reasons:

1. You are ahead of their range, you want to get as much $ in while this is certain
2. playing out of position sucks.. if I just pot it, that gives them 2:1 on me, WITH position, and a pretty narrow range of my hands..
3. You want them to fold, almost always.. open up PT and sort hands by bb/hand.. you'll see maybe 10 hands that on average earn you 1 or more (big bets) per hand. Say theres 1 or more limpers and you are in the SB with 88.. this is a standard raiser, but on average you are looking to get people to fold, because if they fold, you are operating above average, you have just won 1 (big bet) or more, with a hand that normally will not earn that much, and will DEFINITLY not earn that much OOP.

cliff notes: raise extra out of position because if we are going to be at the disadvantage of playing out of position, they have to pay.. alot

[fees]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just use a potsize raise (i.e. double the amount of the PFR + original amount of PFR + money thats already in the pot(SB, BB, limper, w/e)

[/ QUOTE ]
so 3x the pfr + dead money? /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah basically

[fees]

sorry that last post was about being the initial raiser, prf, but same concept, they get insane odds in a huge pot, its -ev to give them 2:1 and position with whatever their 3bet calling range is

i.e. you give proper set odds

[relativity_x]

when I 3bet I generally do bet*(n+3)+sb+bb, where n equal number of callers. This gives the initial raiser 2:1 on their call with any bet size, number of callers.

example:
25 NL

utg bets.75, utg+1 calls, HERO raises .75(1+3)+ .35= 3.35

odds=(3.35+.75+.75+.35)/(3.35-.75)=2

50 NL

utg bets 2, utg+1 calls, HERO raise 2(0+3)+.75=6.75

odds = (6.75+2+.75)/(6.75-2)=2

[Vyse]

3.5x initial raise, I'll add about 2-3 BB if someone called their raise depending who it is

[netstorm]

Fees... so you are not going to give them proper odds when you are out of position, but you are going to give them proper odds when you are in position ? Making them have to pay less when playing OOP?

[Middelemiel]

Wow just read this thread while playing and tried it 2 times. It made me so much more money, as my opponents tend to make huge mistakes, like calling 15 BB with a SC. Thanks man, great tip!!!

[Vyse]

This also gets you, especially weaker players, tied to marginal / unmade hands and use pot odds as an excuse to make crying calls, etc.

[fees]

[ QUOTE ]
Fees... so you are not going to give them proper odds when you are out of position, but you are going to give them proper odds when you are in position ? Making them have to pay less when playing OOP?

[/ QUOTE ]

OOP they don't have the implied odds to continue profitably, there are situations where I will actually less preflop just so I can play in position postflop, which I'm comfortable doing. This isn't really practical at this level because there's not alot of 3betting light going on, as well as a lack of postflop skills.

What it simply comes down to is position, if I'm in position I have a monsterous edge, so even though we give better pot odds, we greatly reduce the implied odds.

Alternatively, our OOP betsizing is a mechanism to combat our opponents implied odds(playing in position)

[We Major]

Apologize if this has been mentioned but default rules like this are a good baseline, but there's a few other things you should consider when deciding how much to 3bet. Specifically:

1. How willing the villain is to call a 3bet
2. How deep we are and how deep the villain is
3. What odds you want to offer them

For example, if we're 300 bb's deep and there is a raiser and caller in front of us at 25nl:

The pot is 2.35 and you have 75.00. If you think one or both of them has a mid pp and are trying to hit a set, it's 8-1 to hit a set. If you raise to 5.00 they have to call 4.00 to win 7.35 and would need to win 32.00 when they hit or another 25.00 more. This is easily possible given that you most likely have a high PP and will commit a large percentage of your stack with it. In this case, I usually 3bet more to something like 7.00 since the 2nd player is likely to call if the first person does and also making it more expensive for them to set mine.

[fees]

its 9-1 for them to hit a set, and putting them both on pairs is way too narrow.. just 3bet normally and play postflop, this deep decisions should be pretty clear..

also uNL games aren't that deep that often so I wouldn't worry too much about it

[Big Poppa Smurf]

What fees is saying is use the pot button

[fees]

[ QUOTE ]
What fees is saying is use the pot button

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT

[We Major]

[ QUOTE ]
its 9-1 for them to hit a set, and putting them both on pairs is way too narrow.. just 3bet normally and play postflop, this deep decisions should be pretty clear..

also uNL games aren't that deep that often so I wouldn't worry too much about it

[/ QUOTE ]

I still think you have to raise more if you're deep because people have implied odds to hit almost anything on you.

[bozzer]

just to note that this 'raise more OOP' stuff is quite debatable. I think it comes down to you needing to get a higher marginal FE on the extra bit of your raise size. Personally I can't see how it adds up from a theoretical pov but never mind.

In addition to fees, aba also three-bets more OOP so it must be optimal.

[netstorm]

[ QUOTE ]
just to note that this 'raise more OOP' stuff is quite debatable. I think it comes down to you needing to get a higher marginal FE on the extra bit of your raise size. Personally I can't see how it adds up from a theoretical pov but never mind.

In addition to fees, aba also three-bets more OOP so it must be optimal.

[/ QUOTE ]

aba = high stakes. We're talking microstakes here. There is no Fold equity. Why anyone would want to blow up the potsize when OOP is beyond me. But thats my personal POV.

[Gelford]

Storm, I think you might have this the wrong way around


What is key here is whether we want people to fold or to call incorrect (this off course depends on your oop three betting range)


(Did I just pull a Sklansky here ?? (hehe))

[jk1986]

Yeah I follow the 3bet more oop school of thought, when 3betting a TAG light, you want them to fold, and if they call they fold to cbet most of the time anyways, since most know that your oop3bet is stronger than in pos. Also, when you are 3betting legitimately, you push your preflop edge as much as possible, if you are making small 3bets oop then playing big pots wiht over pairs on unders boards then you allow ppl to play sc and small pairs profitably (although your average player still won't).

In general I just bet pot (use script) in position, and betpot + a few up scrolls (bb) oop. I don't like the set rules in op, since I think the 3bet size should be varied constantly depending on table dynamics and what the objective is. I do agree however that it is a common occurence at the tables to see 3bets that are to small, especially oop.