Two pair OOP

[corsakh]

<font color="blue">This hand is from a session last night and I am still very unsure how I played it and if there was something I could do better in it.</font>

Villain is fairly ok, perhaps a small winning regular.

25NL FTP
100BB

Hero in BB with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

2 fold, CO raises to 0.85, 2 fold, Hero calls.

<font color="blue">I dont usually call broadways OOP, but since its only 2% of my stack, they are suited and I am confident I am not going broke on one pair here, I call for two pair, straight and flush value. If the raise was bigger, I would be more likely to 3bet.</font>

Pot $1.75 Flop: J/images/graemlins/spade.gif 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif 6/images/graemlins/club.gif
Hero ???

<font color="blue">C/c is too weak on this drawy board. Donking is bad since I am not going to stand a reraise and will have to fold what is likely to be the est hand right now. So I elect to c/r.</font>

Hero checks, CO bets 1.25, Hero raises to 6, CO calls.

<font color="blue">Ok, at this point I am done with this hand and prepared to c/f it.</font>

Pot $14. Turn: K/images/graemlins/spade.gif
Hero ???

<font color="blue">Ok, this is entertaining. I cant give him a free card now and every bet commits me. If I push, no worse hand calls.</font>

Hero bets $10, CO tanks for a long time and pushes all in for $8 more, Hero calls.

Comments please? Do I beat here anything else other than AA or some weirdly played AsJx?

[Nick C]

I'm not entirely sure why you would 3-bet versus a bigger preflop raise (I would probably just fold if the raise were much bigger), but whatever. I think preflop is fine.

The flop checkraise seems like a good way to snap off a c-bet from what most of the time by far will be a worse hand. Getting called does make you stop and think, though. I mean, you put in a substantial checkraise . . .

The turn card sure is a mixed blessing. You just pulled ahead of AJ, but if he was calling because of the spades, well, you've got yourself a 4-outer.

Anyway, I think what you did was okay. After you bet, I don't see how you can fold for $8 more, versus what could be JxXs or even QsQx. You're committed, like you say, and if Villain has a pair plus a draw, he may be feeling that way too.

Edit: One nice thing for your hand is that two big spades are already on the board, although of course AsXs is still entirely possible.

[Tevac]

I might be a bit nitty here, but I would probably fold preflop, especially, if I dont know the villain well enough.

"Donking is bad" - why is a pot raise after the flop not justified here? You have TPTK and with a pot raise a possible flush draw of villain would be out of the odds.

What do I miss here?

[MusashiStyle]

call flop for pot control is what i do all the time. I don't know why u don't consider it.

as played, ur hand is good on the turn like &gt; 50% of the time so just put your stack in.

[corsakh]

[ QUOTE ]
call flop for pot control is what i do all the time. I don't know why u don't consider it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its a way to go broke on TP.

[jessyj07]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
call flop for pot control is what i do all the time. I don't know why u don't consider it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its a way to go broke on TP.

[/ QUOTE ]that's a joke, seriously.

[corsakh]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
call flop for pot control is what i do all the time. I don't know why u don't consider it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its a way to go broke on TP.

[/ QUOTE ]that's a joke, seriously.

[/ QUOTE ]

mm.. is it? Tell me your plan on a spade, ace, or straight turn.

[jessyj07]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
call flop for pot control is what i do all the time. I don't know why u don't consider it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its a way to go broke on TP.

[/ QUOTE ]that's a joke, seriously.

[/ QUOTE ]

mm.. is it? Tell me your plan on a spade, ace, or straight turn.

[/ QUOTE ]yes it is a joke, in any scenerio I'm not turning this hand into a hand I'm going broke with unless I hit 2p+.

Any kind of card you don't want to hit scares your opponent to, just bet/fold the turn on a spade/ace/whatever.

[Sweir]

I like it, nh.

[ama0330]

Don't like how this played out.

Preflop is sorta "Hmmmm...". I'll 3bet here sometimes, fold quite often, and call almost never - if I do call its either because I'm feeling frisky and I'm looking for a really good hand, or I know that villain plays like crap postflop.

I donk this flop a lot because cr just turns your hand into a bluff. You called with KJ, not 72o. If he raises you, then you fold. Thats just the price you pay for playing marginal hands OOP - if you feel like you are being outplayed, then too bad - thats the OOP tax.

If you donk the flop, he raises hands which beat you and you can fold having invested almost nothing. If you cr, you are likely to get raised off what may be the best hand having invested like 3 times as much to find out. If he calls your cr, you are [censored]. Now you have a huge pot, you have no idea where you are, and you are still OOP. Uh oh.

Given that he called your flop raise you are wa/wb his range and betting to me seems like spew. The point is that there is no real right answer to what to do here because the way you have played the hand up to this point means that we are missing so much information that we can't really make an accurate estimate of where we stand, so we are forced to play our own hand on its intrinsic strength alone. You're good against one pair hands and behind everything else. *shrug

[corsakh]

I used to donk this flops too. But problem is you:

1) either loose a cbet;
2) get called and on this board have no idea where you stand;
3) get raised with what can easily be ATC against a thinking opponent.

There was a big nice post by Pokey in one of my threads in December I think. And he pretty much convinced me to c/r TP OOP and I am fairly positive it had a good impact on my game.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...rue#Post8557034 (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&amp;Board=microplnl&amp;Number=8557034&amp; Searchpage=1&amp;Main=8556772&amp;Words=pokey+corsakh&amp;topi c=&amp;Search=true#Post8557034)

[ama0330]

IDK, I've been putting a lot of money in OOP on the flop with marginal hands and I have found it to be a great improvement. I think that it is often cheaper to donk a flop with a hand which "might sorta be kinda good" than to pay off a bunch of streets and find out that you got outdrawn, or worse, that you were never good to start with.

I think I would rather c/c than c/r, its just really expensive and its not a move you can ever do for value. The thing about c/r'ing TP is that if your opponent does anything other than fold, then you're toast. In light of this fact, you turn your hand into any two because you cant take TPDK (top pair, dodgy kicker) to showdown in a pot that size OOP. So you're not really cr'ing your hand, your cr'ing his hand.

Plus, I saw Phil Ivey donk lead a bunch so its bankable. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[corsakh]

Sometimes I hate poker /images/graemlins/laugh.gif Smart winning players seem to disagree on the simpliest of things /images/graemlins/smile.gif I guess I will have to give it a lot of thought some time in the nearest future /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ama0330]

Basically I just look at the amount of money I'm spending on the hand. You wouldnt buy a 3rd hand Volvo for $250,000 and I see hands like this as the same thing - if you want to cr the flop, its not because you have top pair, its because you want the dude to fold. So you are either bluffing, or not, because you can't expect to be paid on the river if your flop play results in any other action than a fold.

[bozzer]

I think to donk or not to donk is one of the biggest differences between 2p2er's abc uNL strategies. Personally I don't donk, but I'm not really sold either way.

[C4LL4W4Y]

Grunch...HU I don't like a preflop call. Either 3b or fold it, 3b obviously if his range CO opening range is wider. You also picked about the worst board to CR on, because a large part of anybody's range will have hit that flop AND have position on future streets.

The turn is a weird situation that I probably wouldn't get myself into, but it's a toss up between betting and checking. Checking will get worse hands to bluff, better hands to value bet, and draws to check behind. Betting will get worse hands to fold, better hands/draws to shove, and some draws to call. All in all I think you set yourself up for this one by building a big pot OOP on a flop that you had no business C/R'ing.