Should I always give credit to top pair if they call the flop!?

[gmac]

Okay, below is an example of something which seems to happen to me time after time. Generally I assume people are decent players unless I have evidence to the contrary. In this instance I would have thought that someone with top pair would not simply flat call the flop or check behind again on the turn. If they had top pair I assumed they would define their hand and protect it against the draws on the board. I also had to assume that the 8 did not help them on the turn. Should I be giving credit to a possible top pair whenever I get called on the flop. It seems I just pay off top pair against these awful players and I don't know how to alter my thought process during a hand.

What thoughts should be running through my mind!?


POKERSTARS GAME #10629918469: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($0.25/$0.50) - 2007/06/26 - 12:08:59 (ET)
Table 'Calvinia' 6-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: run409 ($51.45 in chips)
Seat 2: VILLAIN ($47.45 in chips)
Seat 3: risababe ($47.80 in chips)
Seat 4: jtmorgan ($50 in chips)
Seat 5: tehmac ($51.25 in chips)
Seat 6: gparker1515 ($47.25 in chips)
gparker1515: posts small blind $0.25
run409: posts big blind $0.50

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to tehmac [7/images/graemlins/heart.gif 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif]
VILLAIN: calls $0.50
risababe: folds
jtmorgan: folds
tehmac: raises $2 to $2.50
gparker1515: folds
run409: folds
VILLAIN: calls $2

*** FLOP *** [4/images/graemlins/spade.gif 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif J/images/graemlins/heart.gif]
katatonic1: checks
tehmac: bets $4
VILLAIN: calls $4

*** TURN *** [4/images/graemlins/spade.gif 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif J/images/graemlins/heart.gif] [8/images/graemlins/spade.gif]
VILLAIN: checks
tehmac: checks

*** RIVER *** [4/images/graemlins/spade.gif 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif J/images/graemlins/heart.gif 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif] [6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif]
VILLAIN: bets $4.50
tehmac: calls $4.50

*** SHOW DOWN ***
VILLAIN: shows [5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif] (a pair of Jacks)
tehmac: mucks hand
katatonic1 collected $21.65 from pot

[greggg230]

All you beat is a busted flush draw. No reason to call on the river.

[Robbie01]

Dont put to much thought into it at 50nl, play ABC poker and bet your big hands dump most marginal hands.

Also i limp preflop and fold river in the type of hand posted

[ActionStan]

I think you played the hand fine. Call would be fine. Fold would be fine.

...snip...
If they had top pair I assumed they would define their hand and protect it against the draws on the board.
...snip...

I think top pair will check behind a lot. Especially a weak top pair. It's a balance between protecting your hand and building a monster pot with crap. I am much more inclined to put a lot of money into the pot on that board if I already have a big hand that I need to protect, like 2 pair or a set, or I have a big draw.

I personally wouldn't be in the pot with J5, but I would be checking behind with most of my Jx holdings.

[ActionStan]

I'm not convinced calling or not calling on the river matters much in the long run. There are enough busted draws out there that might take a stab that calling or folding are just about even in the long run. Disagree?

[relativity_x]

never limp in 6 max.

[gmac]

[ QUOTE ]
never limp in 6 max.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ummmmm... I didn't.

[relativity_x]

I wasn't responding to you.

[ QUOTE ]
Also i limp preflop and fold river in the type of hand posted


[/ QUOTE ]

Robbie said he'd limp.

[ActionStan]

He was responding to Robbie.

[gmac]

Ah, my bad. :-)

[XHitman014]

[ QUOTE ]
never limp in 6 max.

[/ QUOTE ]

You should never open limp but I don't see a reason why you can't limp in position after others with suited connectors (1 gap, 2 gap, etc).


It pisses me off to no end though when someone open limps on the button.

[Quester]

[ QUOTE ]
You should never open limp but I don't see a reason why you can't limp in position after others with suited connectors (1 gap, 2 gap, etc).


It pisses me off to no end though when someone open limps on the button.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure, but he said he would limp 77. This is almost always incorrect play.

Anyway, river is either a call or fold depending on villain. You checked the turn so he thinks you whiffed. If he's somewhat aggressive he'll bluff the river with busted flush draws. Calling can be fine here.

Answering the question in the thread title - No, you shouldn't always give credit to top pair if the call the flop. However, if the board is dry like J/images/graemlins/club.gif2/images/graemlins/spade.gif6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, then I'd be inclined to give credit to a Jack.

[ActionStan]

Ohhh, if I only played 6-max. I would limp the button like crazy on you. Put you right on tilt. Limp, limp, limp. Tilt, tilt, tilt. Limp, limp, limp. Tilt, tilt, tilt.

[Disconnected]

If you were planning to call a river bet, I would have fired the second bullet on the turn and planned to check behind the river.

[J.A.K.]

[ QUOTE ]
never limp in 6 max.

[/ QUOTE ]

OOPS

[ QUOTE ]
It pisses me off to no end though when someone open limps on the button.

[/ QUOTE ]

OOPS 2

Never ever limp the button? I'm pretty sure I am way too passive.

[wslee00]

never say never

[XHitman014]

[ QUOTE ]
Ohhh, if I only played 6-max. I would limp the button like crazy on you. Put you right on tilt. Limp, limp, limp. Tilt, tilt, tilt. Limp, limp, limp. Tilt, tilt, tilt.

[/ QUOTE ]

It'd work too. But I hope you like 8x BB raises (don't explioit this!)

[relativity_x]

If i'm calling your cbet, then yes, you should give me credit for top pair+.

[C4LL4W4Y]

Grunch...this hand is sorta standard. You should call that river bet on what seems to be a blank river after checking back turn. But betting the turn is ok too, especially if villain likes to float or is draw happy.

And also, I would stop giving so much credit to unknowns. Most of the people playing 50NL suck.