NL25: KK facing flop raise OOP

[Emperor Norton]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

SB ($22.80)
BB ($15)
Hero ($25.50)
MP ($15.40)
Button ($51.40)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $1</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls $1, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>.

Flop: ($2.35) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $2</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to $5</font>, Hero calls $3.

Turn: ($12.35) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, Button checks.

River: ($12.35) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, Button checks.

I wasn't quite sure what to make of the raise on this dry board. Two pair is fairly unlikely (although T7 is possible), so either he has a set, 98, a ten, or he's just taking a shot at me. Villain had only been around for about twenty hands before this one, and I didn't have anything suggesting he'd stack off with AT here, so I figured a call was better than a three-bet. Then what? I figure I have three options:

<ul type="square"> Lead the turn. This will get a fold from bluffs, a call from most tens, and another raise from 98 or sets.
Check/call the turn. I'm pretty sure this sucks.
Check/raise the turn all-in. This was what I was going for at the time, since most villains don't know Baluga, and I think it makes it substantially more likely that I'll get his stack with AT.
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Such a basic situation, so much confusion. Any help is appreciated.

[Emperor Norton]

No love?

Edit: Haha, is this really tough, or really simple?

[Knuckles]

It would really help if you had a read on your opponent. Also how have you been playing? Have you been raising every hand?

[tarheeljks]

why do you dislike a c/c on the turn? since we don't know if he stacks off w/ AT, i think a cr ai creates the same problem as leading the turn.

edit: w/o reads this line looks fine, crappy river though. were you going to lead if it were a blank?

[Knuckles]

I don't mind a c/c on the turn. Against an unknown player this is probably how I would play it. But a read would help decide if this the right line or not.

[Emperor Norton]

I would have led a blank river. I had been playing my tight game, so I really wasn't pushing people around an extraordinary amount preflop. No reads because villain is basically an unknown, as I noted in the OP.

As for check/calling, it just seems like such a passive approach. I think that leading gives me a better idea of where I am in the hand and reduces my reverse implied odds, even though it also folds out the hands that amounted to bluffs. I don't think a checkraise was a great idea, I just mentioned it because it was the idea that I had at the time.

[Genz]

I reraise this flop to 16. The board is dry and you have little chance to improve if you are behind anyway. So there is no real difference to a turn crai. but you will be called by most PPs here and often even TP that might be scared and shut down later when an overcard comes. If he was bluff-raising you, it doesn't really matter, because he is going to fold. You only allow him to hit some magical card or whatever (like that A on the river). When I'm oop with such a hand, I usually play it fast rather than having it checked down because I try to be fancy.

As played, bet that river. Don't give him a negative freeroll, because you can't really fold to a bet after you have underrepresented your hand like that. Fold to a raise though (unless it's a minraise, maybe).

[Emperor Norton]

I don't quite understand. You'd three-bet and call a shove? So you're fine with stacking off every time to a set on this board? That seems dangerous against an unknown, since I have no way of knowing how often he'll call a big reraise with AT or worse.

[Genz]

Counter-question: But you call and CRAI on the turn and stack off to a set everytime on the turn against an unknown? You see, against a set there is no difference.

[creamfillin]

I think this river calls for a small bet. It would be super thin but most of his range at this point are Tx/small pairs/alot of crap you beat

[Emperor Norton]

Well, there's the obvious difference that calling and going for the checkraise allows villain to put more money into the pot with hands with which he can't call a push (or massive three-bet).

[crovax4444]

genz, if you bet $16 and the guy raises/calls, with $9 left in a $32 pot, arn't we geting it all-in to pretty much anything?

Crovax

[Genz]

You are not considering position enough, imo.

I like a flat call when you are check raised, because he has to act first on the turn. I like to play it really fast here out of positon. Maybe you don't have to raise him that much. Make a raise that AT, JT etc. can call and will eventually commit him to the pot. Even a minraise is good, because the pot will be $18 on the turn and you'll have 17 left with two more streets to get it in gently against his range.
And if he is full of it, why do you CRAI on the turn? He won't call anyway when he is bluffing...

[Genz]

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genz, if you bet $16 and the guy raises/calls, with $9 left in a $32 pot, arn't we geting it all-in to pretty much anything?

Crovax

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Yes. It's 6max after all.

Edit: 16 might actually a bit much. I'd probably go for somewhere between 9 and 12 in real life...

[Emperor Norton]

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And if he is full of it, why do you CRAI on the turn? He won't call anyway when he is bluffing...

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Because that's free money. And I need that free money to balance out the time he has me crushed.

[tarheeljks]

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And if he is full of it, why do you CRAI on the turn? He won't call anyway when he is bluffing...

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Because that's free money. And I need that free money to balance out the time he has me crushed.

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you can also get this money by just calling.

[Emperor Norton]

True enough. It just feels wrong to play so passively and to give up the initiative so easily with a strong hand. But I guess against an unknown on a dry flop, that may be the best option. Sigh.

[tarheeljks]

genz: this wasn't a 3bet pot, so he's not likely to be holding an overpair here: what pp's do you think call a c/r ai? also, i think it's debatable as to whether tptk calls us here.

[Genz]

Well, raising the turn AI when you think he is bluffing, is actually a horrible play, because you won't win any more if he is full of it but lose a lot more when he is actually not bluffing...
But I don't think that against an unknown who almost minraises you on the flop, your standardline should be c/c turn c/c river. That's a poor line to get value if ahead and a great line to burn money when behind.

[Genz]

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genz: this wasn't a 3bet pot, so he's not likely to be holding an overpair here: what pp's do you think call a c/r ai? also, i think it's debatable as to whether tptk calls us here.

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88+, AT, KT, QT, JTs, 9Ts will all call a raise on the flop. Notice: I'm not saying that you should push over his raise. I already corrected the size of my raise to somewhere between 9 and 12.

[tarheeljks]

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genz: this wasn't a 3bet pot, so he's not likely to be holding an overpair here: what pp's do you think call a c/r ai? also, i think it's debatable as to whether tptk calls us here.

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88+, AT, KT, QT, JTs, 9Ts will all call a raise on the flop. Notice: I'm not saying that you should push over his raise. I already corrected the size of my raise to somewhere between 9 and 12.

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i was talking about a turn c/r ai, but at any rate i think you need a read to assign the villain this loose of a 3bet calling range.

[Emperor Norton]

Oy. I don't think his range consists entirely of bluffs and sets. But if it consists of some bluffs, some sets, some draws, and some top pair hands, then I have to try to discover a line that works well against his range in aggregate. Three-betting works well against draws, not-so-well against top pair (depends on the opponent), and terribly against sets and bluffs. Calling the flop and check/calling the turn is lousy against draws, much better against bluffs, etc.

[Genz]

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genz: this wasn't a 3bet pot, so he's not likely to be holding an overpair here: what pp's do you think call a c/r ai? also, i think it's debatable as to whether tptk calls us here.

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88+, AT, KT, QT, JTs, 9Ts will all call a raise on the flop. Notice: I'm not saying that you should push over his raise. I already corrected the size of my raise to somewhere between 9 and 12.

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i was talking about a turn c/r ai,

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Sorry. I think his range isn't too much tighter then because of stack sizes. The pot is 12. So if he bets like 8 and OP pushes is last 17 in, he has to call only 9 into a 37 pot.


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but at any rate i think you need a read to assign the villain this loose of a 3bet calling range.

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PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (5 handed)

They put you on AK and play their PP like the nuts.

[tarheeljks]

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genz: this wasn't a 3bet pot, so he's not likely to be holding an overpair here: what pp's do you think call a c/r ai? also, i think it's debatable as to whether tptk calls us here.

[/ QUOTE ]

88+, AT, KT, QT, JTs, 9Ts will all call a raise on the flop. Notice: I'm not saying that you should push over his raise. I already corrected the size of my raise to somewhere between 9 and 12.

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i was talking about a turn c/r ai,

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Sorry. I think his range isn't too much tighter then because of stack sizes. The pot is 12. So if he bets like 8 and OP pushes is last 17 in, he has to call only 9 into a 37 pot.


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but at any rate i think you need a read to assign the villain this loose of a 3bet calling range.

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PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (5 handed)

They put you on AK and play their PP like the nuts.

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fair enough. i hadn't looked at the stack sizes closely enough, so other pp's probably call c/r ai. i'm still skeptical as to whether we get calls from AT- on a flop 3bet.

[yntm3]

For the love of god RR the flop.

[dimeetrees]

I call flop, and bet/fold the turn. Also Id blocker bet/fold the river if he calls the turn or maybe even check call if i get 4 to 1 on my call by the river... I doubt a call is in order by the river if he bets big and represents a lot of strength.