50NL; AJ flops middle pair; QJ4; turn Q; played interestingly I think

[Lego05]

Villian is 29.68/15.53/2.67 postflop agg. over 219 hands.

So I check flop to try to keep his range wide and induce bluffs....same on turn although now it's even less likely he has a Q. I see no reason to bet the river now, although I could be wrong). But his shove is a little surprising. Comments on my above logic and correct play now on river please

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

MP ($23.30)
CO ($142.15)
Button ($13.75)
Hero ($50.25)
BB ($30)
UTG ($67.50)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls $0.50, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls $0.50, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $3</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG folds, CO calls $2.50.

Flop: ($7) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets $4.5</font>, Hero calls $4.50.

Turn: ($16) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets $10</font>, Hero calls $10.

River: ($36) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets $124.65 (All-In)</font>, (He's effectively shoving for 32.75) Hero ???

[wslee00]

I really think you need to move down.

[bored]

Cbet flop.

Also, I don't raise this from the blinds.

[Lego05]

[ QUOTE ]
I really think you need to move down.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think so. I'm not a big winner at 50NL but I don't think moving down to 25NL is going to help me increase my win-rate at 50NL. Over 156,625 hands I have a 1.79 PTBB/100hands winrate at 50NL. And over the last 44,420 hands it's at 2.78PTBB/100 hands.... so I'm beating it....I just need to beat it better.


[ QUOTE ]
Cbet flop.

Also, I don't raise this from the blinds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not? Pretty standard raise pre-flop for me against most opponents.

And I usually c-bet flop, but when you do that 66-TT prolly folds as well as just whiffed hands and you get called by what - like Q's, T9, and maybe some J's. And if you c-bet they almost never bluff with whiffed hands which checking gives them a chance to do. And finally and very important there aren't very many draws on this flop. In this particular hand I don't think checking flop is too bad, I actually think it can be pretty good. I'd love for you to explain why it's bad and you have to c-bet here.

[wslee00]

if you don't c-bet you have no idea where you are in the hand - they can have ANYTHING - this puts you in tough situations that you want to avoid

[C4LL4W4Y]

Dude if you're only 1.79/100 at 50NL, you have some serious leaks. In this hand, I don't really get what you're trying to do. Raising this from the blinds is alright, but you should have a read on what UTG's limping range is before you do so.

As far as the flop, I'd probably c-bet it most times but c/c'ing against an aggro villain is fine too if you think middle pair kills the range that he does this with. Problem is that your villain doesn't look like he's all that aggro.

Basically the way you played this hand, you gave yourself no information on villain's range with which to play at you. I've suggested this to someone else before and I'll suggest it again - read Supwithbates' pooh-bah post on manipulating hand ranges. 2bb/100 at 50 isn't even close to what you can achieve by reading and contributing to these forums on a regular basis.

[Lego05]

[ QUOTE ]
if you don't c-bet you have no idea where you are in the hand - they can have ANYTHING - this puts you in tough situations that you want to avoid

[/ QUOTE ]

What you capitalized was the whole point of checking. I wanted to keep his range wide. And I posted the hand mostly to then hear perople's answer to the tougher situation. (Although I'd also say that most of the time most opponents probably are not going to bet all 3 streets so it won't normally be that tough a decision.

[bored]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I really think you need to move down.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think so. I'm not a big winner at 50NL but I don't think moving down to 25NL is going to help me increase my win-rate at 50NL. Over 156,625 hands I have a 1.79 PTBB/100hands winrate at 50NL. And over the last 44,420 hands it's at 2.78PTBB/100 hands.... so I'm beating it....I just need to beat it better.


[ QUOTE ]
Cbet flop.

Also, I don't raise this from the blinds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not? Pretty standard raise pre-flop for me against most opponents.

And I usually c-bet flop, but when you do that 66-TT prolly folds as well as just whiffed hands and you get called by what - like Q's, T9, and maybe some J's. And if you c-bet they almost never bluff with whiffed hands which checking gives them a chance to do. And finally and very important there aren't very many draws on this flop. In this particular hand I don't think checking flop is too bad, I actually think it can be pretty good. I'd love for you to explain why it's bad and you have to c-bet here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't like playing AJ OOP.

I cbet simply because you raised pf OOP. I don't think you are in as good a spot as you think you are in here. You are OOP vs a sLAG and it is going to be very hard for you to improve your hand and still get action. I don't see the point in trying to "trap" this guy OOP w/ a marginal hand, unless...

...you have a read that villain is an aggro bluffer and you are going to induce a series of big bluffs from him. If that is your read then stick to it and call the river.

[Bonesy]

[ QUOTE ]
Raising this from the blinds is alright, but you should have a read on what UTG's limping range is before you do so.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with what you are saying in the rest of your post but who the heck keeps track of what someone's limping range is? This villain should be raising AQ+ with a PFR of 15. I'm reasonably sure that hero is ahead enough to make raising pf standard.

The rest of the hand I don't get and I would qualify this as fps vs this type of villain. Just cbet this thing. You may fold out TT's and lower but how much value do you think you would be getting from them anyways? Further, you give free cards to KT, T9 and whatever else.

[Lego05]

[ QUOTE ]

Basically the way you played this hand, you gave yourself no information on villain's range with which to play at you. I've suggested this to someone else before and I'll suggest it again - read Supwithbates' pooh-bah post on manipulating hand ranges. 2bb/100 at 50 isn't even close to what you can achieve by reading and contributing to these forums on a regular basis.

[/ QUOTE ]

I read it. I also thought that was relative to this hand, but I thought I did a decent job of manipulating his hand range. From his poo bah post:

"Although the range varies from person to person (and again, depends on how you play your hand and how the board comes out), most players have a range of hands that they will be willing to felt, whether it's TPTK+, overpairs, two pair, whatever. If you're at the bottom of that range of hands, it makes little sense to be trying to play for stacks because you'll be behind more often than you're ahead. Instead, you should focus in these situations on keeping your opponent interested with a wide range while still protecting your hand and extracting value."


So I guess the choices are to either bet and be check folding if he plays back at all....or to check and be calling his bets. Agree? From replies I'm assuming that you all prefer the first option and have no idea what to do on the river here given that the second option was chosen. Correct?