N82's blog post

[muxplust]

Remember - Get this form in
Posted on June 24th, 2007 in General by Nat

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f90221.pdf

I wrote about this in my old blog before I took it down. Since I haven’t posted the archives yet, that entry isn’t available anymore to the viewing public. But if you had $10K in NETELLER at any point in 2006 (even if it was for about 30 seconds) and you’re a US citizen, you need to get this form in and you need to get it in before June 30th. The penalties for not filing are extremely severe (think prison and/or six figure fines), so be smart — fill it out and send it in. The US Gov’t could easily have copies of NETELLER records after this whole investigation thing and you don’t want to get caught not reporting your foreign accounts.

[muxplust]

has everyone sent this in already?

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
The penalties for not filing are extremely severe (think prison and/or six figure fines)

[/ QUOTE ]

there's no way this is true.

it is a good idea to file though.

[XChamp]

Is there an easy way to export the neteller account history to excel so I can add up all my deposits and withdrawals? I can't just copy and paste it because the formatting is all off.

This is so annoying. I honestly want to roll the dice and not report. I think I had a balance between 10-12k maybe 3 times in the past 3 years.

[muxplust]

[ QUOTE ]
Is there an easy way to export the neteller account history to excel so I can add up all my deposits and withdrawals? I can't just copy and paste it because the formatting is all off.

This is so annoying. I honestly want to roll the dice and not report. I think I had a balance between 10-12k maybe 3 times in the past 3 years.

[/ QUOTE ]

cut, paste, reformat in excel

[XChamp]

The problem is that reformatting takes just as long as entering the numbers by hand since their debits and credits are both positive. I just typed it all in and am now checking for errors.

Also, Neteller just gives the month, date and time of day of the transactions. They don't give the year, which is ridiculous, since I'm looking back over 6 years ago.

[muxplust]

you can work backwards....so, you only have to add and deduct transactions for one 18 months to get to january 2006

[G-Diddy20]

[ QUOTE ]
Is there an easy way to export the neteller account history to excel so I can add up all my deposits and withdrawals? I can't just copy and paste it because the formatting is all off.

This is so annoying. I honestly want to roll the dice and not report. I think I had a balance between 10-12k maybe 3 times in the past 3 years.

[/ QUOTE ]

my sentiments completely. i had like 12k in neteller at one point last year and am contemplating rolling the dice also. if the penalties for not paying taxes on 11k really 6 figures and jail time then maybe i won't, but i just find that a little extreme. i suck at poker and am a college student so paying 4k or whatever it would be for filing would be -EV if the chances of getting caught are relatively low and the penalty would be paying the full 12k to the gov. someone with some expertise help me out with a realistic viewpoint. thanks

G

[BKiCe]

do you have to fill out this report for neteller only or for all poker sites you played on?

from the irs's point of view, those are foreign accounts, right?

[muxplust]

where's n82 when you need him?

[nanonoko]

Can someone help me fill this thing out? I dont know the answers for PART II, especially items #23-25.
Also, may seem like silling question but this is for 'filing for calendar year' 2006 right?

[Sniper]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Is there an easy way to export the neteller account history to excel so I can add up all my deposits and withdrawals? I can't just copy and paste it because the formatting is all off.

This is so annoying. I honestly want to roll the dice and not report. I think I had a balance between 10-12k maybe 3 times in the past 3 years.

[/ QUOTE ]

my sentiments completely. i had like 12k in neteller at one point last year and am contemplating rolling the dice also. if the penalties for not paying taxes on 11k really 6 figures and jail time then maybe i won't, but i just find that a little extreme. i suck at poker and am a college student so paying 4k or whatever it would be for filing would be -EV if the chances of getting caught are relatively low and the penalty would be paying the full 12k to the gov. someone with some expertise help me out with a realistic viewpoint. thanks

G

[/ QUOTE ]

This form has been extensively discussed in this forum...

Filing this form has nothing to do with your taxes... it is a seperate disclosure requirement.

[jschell]

[ QUOTE ]
Can someone help me fill this thing out? I dont know the answers for PART II, especially items #23-25.
Also, may seem like silling question but this is for 'filing for calendar year' 2006 right?

[/ QUOTE ]
23.) Your Neteller account number
24.) NETELLER (UK) Ltd
25.) Isle of Man

"Filing for Calendar Year" is whatever year you are filing the form for. Assuming you are filing for last year, yes, 2006.

[nanonoko]

Thank You JSCHELL, Also:
For:
#20: I assume I have a financial interest right?
#21: Type of Account? [i dont know the answer]
#3: Taxpayer Identification number? (i dont know it since I did not pay taxes yet because I lost all the money that year)
--I'm going to assume I only have to fill out parts #1, #2 right?
Thank You Very Much.

[XChamp]

I believe your taxpayer identification number is also your social security number (assuming you have one). If you don't have a social security number, then you probably are going to have to contact the IRS about obtaining a taxpayer ID number.

[NoahSD]

Can someone please clarify some things for me:

1) Does firepay count too?
2) If I never had 10k in my firepay, but definitely moved more than 10k through it, should I be worried?

[Sniper]

[ QUOTE ]
Can someone please clarify some things for me:

1) Does firepay count too?
2) If I never had 10k in my firepay, but definitely moved more than 10k through it, should I be worried?

[/ QUOTE ]

Technically, the form requires reporting if the aggregate total of all offshore financial accounts was more than 10K, at any time during the year. (There is some disagreement about whether poker site accounts, count for this, but Neteller & Firepay, Etc certainly do)

[Homer]

A few quick polls. Don't answer if you are not required to file the form.

[nanonoko]

Last question:
I see these posts about not filing. That's a bad idea right? I mean especially if I lost the money in 2006, I should just file right?

[SlowHabit]

[ QUOTE ]
Last question:
I see these posts about not filing. That's a bad idea right? I mean especially if I lost the money in 2006, I should just file right?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes.

The IRS wants to know about your cash flow.

[curtains]

I think its absurd. I paid taxes on the money, I didn't say exactly where it was at all times. The chance that Im going to jail or paying some huge fine on earned income that I already paid taxes and reported, even if I didn't specify that it was in some foreign account, is pretty much zero.

[jackaaron]

[ QUOTE ]
I think its absurd. I paid taxes on the money, I didn't say exactly where it was at all times. The chance that Im going to jail or paying some huge fine on earned income that I already paid taxes and reported, even if I didn't specify that it was in some foreign account, is pretty much zero.

[/ QUOTE ]

From Sniper:
[ QUOTE ]

This form has been extensively discussed in this forum...

Filing this form has nothing to do with your taxes... it is a seperate disclosure requirement.


[/ QUOTE ]

[muxplust]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think its absurd. I paid taxes on the money, I didn't say exactly where it was at all times. The chance that Im going to jail or paying some huge fine on earned income that I already paid taxes and reported, even if I didn't specify that it was in some foreign account, is pretty much zero.

[/ QUOTE ]

From Sniper:
[ QUOTE ]

This form has been extensively discussed in this forum...

Filing this form has nothing to do with your taxes... it is a seperate disclosure requirement.


[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

[godofgamblers]

My NT account is closed and there seems to be in no way to get in contact with them to reopen it so I can check if I ever had 10k in there. I don't think I did, since I usually kept it on sites and straight to withdrawal, but am I screwed?

[muxplust]

[ QUOTE ]
My NT account is closed and there seems to be in no way to get in contact with them to reopen it so I can check if I ever had 10k in there. I don't think I did, since I usually kept it on sites and straight to withdrawal, but am I screwed?

[/ QUOTE ]

ewww, call nt support?

[autobet]

They are not throwing anyone in Jail for 4K.

I knew at least two poker dealers on payment plans who owed over 40K. They were walking the street and since they were still dealing they did not have a felony for income tax evasion on their records.

Felony income tax evasion is for the BIG FISH.

Of course they were not associated with the evil offshore type of gambling...

[IWEARGOGGLES]

Meh I'm having my mom send it in. If they tell me I need to pay taxes on it I'll just ignore them. :-p

I already paid my taxes, FYI.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
Meh I'm having my mom send it in. If they tell me I need to pay taxes on it I'll just ignore them. :-p

I already paid my taxes, FYI.

[/ QUOTE ]


There is no way they are going after someone who has already paid their taxes on money just because they didn't specifically file where it's from. If it wasn't for this forum, 99% of people involved would have no idea to file it anyway. Also not everyone reads this forum. The ridiculous notion that there are going to be 6 figure fines and jail time associated with this is a joke.

Yeah I'm going to jail and having to pay 100k because I had 20k in Neteller at some point, which I paid taxes on, just because I didn't tell them it was specifically from Neteller. It's the stupidest piece of garbage I've ever heard, and it's just to scare people for no reason. BS like this shouldn't be allowed to be posted on this forum.

Yeah post that maybe it's something you should do, but don't throw in stuff about how if you don't you are risking jailtime. It's just ridiculous. At worst there will be some slap on the wrist or very minor penalty. You'd hear of it I'm pretty sure if people who actually paid their taxes routinely went to jail anyway because of some minor technicality. Shockingly I've never heard a single story about this happening in my entire life, yet there is a post on this forum scaring everyone into thinking they can goto jail or face some fine that is likely many times more than their income.


I called my tax guy anyway to see whether I should file this thing. I'll basically do whatever he says, but I just hate the general attitude of how all these terrible things are going to happen to you for some extremely minor infraction.

[Sniper]

Curtains, It is important to note that ignorance of the law is no excuse, and filing this form is a legal requirement.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
Curtains, It is important to note that ignorance of the law is no excuse, and filing this form is a legal requirement.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah but tell me am I going to get a 6 figure fine and/or jail time as stated in the OP if I don't file this form?

[fleece_me]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Meh I'm having my mom send it in. If they tell me I need to pay taxes on it I'll just ignore them. :-p

I already paid my taxes, FYI.

[/ QUOTE ]


There is no way they are going after someone who has already paid their taxes on money just because they didn't specifically file where it's from. If it wasn't for this forum, 99% of people involved would have no idea to file it anyway. Also not everyone reads this forum. The ridiculous notion that there are going to be 6 figure fines and jail time associated with this is a joke.

Yeah I'm going to jail and having to pay 100k because I had 20k in Neteller at some point, which I paid taxes on, just because I didn't tell them it was specifically from Neteller. It's the stupidest piece of garbage I've ever heard, and it's just to scare people for no reason. BS like this shouldn't be allowed to be posted on this forum.

Yeah post that maybe it's something you should do, but don't throw in stuff about how if you don't you are risking jailtime. It's just ridiculous. At worst there will be some slap on the wrist or very minor penalty. You'd hear of it I'm pretty sure if people who actually paid their taxes routinely went to jail anyway because of some minor technicality. Shockingly I've never heard a single story about this happening in my entire life, yet there is a post on this forum scaring everyone into thinking they can goto jail or face some fine that is likely many times more than their income.


I called my tax guy anyway to see whether I should file this thing. I'll basically do whatever he says, but I just hate the general attitude of how all these terrible things are going to happen to you for some extremely minor infraction.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is a federal crime and a few years ago there was a very famous internet gambling case where 2 individuals plead guilty to this crime (and some others) and got about 5 years in jail.

Federal crimes are no joke.

[curtains]

Please give me some proof of this crime. You are saying that these people filed all their taxes, paid for everything they made, but went to jail for 5 years because they didn't specify that it was in a foreign bank account?

I would bet a lot of money that this isn't what happened, but ok prove me wrong and give me a link to this story.

[Sniper]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Curtains, It is important to note that ignorance of the law is no excuse, and filing this form is a legal requirement.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah but tell me am I going to get a 6 figure fine and/or jail time as stated in the OP if I don't file this form?

[/ QUOTE ]

Here's what the form itself says (feel free to research the actual laws if you really want to know what the "certain circumstances" are)...

[ QUOTE ]
Pursuant to the requirements of Public Law 93-579 (Privacy Act of 1974), notice is hereby given that the authority to collect information on TD F 90-22.1 in accordance with 5 USC 522a(e) is Public Law 91-508; 31 USC 5314; 5 USC 301; 31 CFR 103.

The principal purpose for collecting the information is to assure maintenance of reports where such reports or records have a high degree of usefulness in criminal, tax, or regulatory investigations or proceedings. The information collected may be provided to those officers and employees of any constituent unit of the Department of the Treasury who have a need for the records in the performance of their duties. The records may be referred to any other department or agency of the United States upon the request of the head of such department or agency for use in a criminal, tax, or regulatory investigation or proceeding. The information collected may also be provided to appropriate state, local, and foreign law enforcement and regulatory personnel in the performance of their official duties.

Disclosure of this information is mandatory. Civil and criminal penalties, including in certain circumstances a fine of not more than $500,000 and imprisonment of not more than five years, are provided for failure to file a report, supply information, and for filing a false or fraudulent report.

Disclosure of the Social Security number is mandatory. The authority to collect is 31 CFR 103. The Social Security number will be used as a means to identify the individual who files the report.

[/ QUOTE ]

[curtains]

Yeah ok but let's be honest that there is absolutely no chance that someone is going to jail and paying 6 figure fines if they had 10k in neteller for a little bit, paid taxes on it and etc etc.

I mean yeah it's nice to send the form, but why scaremonger everyone with talk of huge fines and jailtime. This is what the IRS does that gets everyone on this forum paranoid beyond belief. Just pay your taxes and you aren't going to jail. If someone can show me a single example of someone who did pay their taxes but went to prison for it anyway due to a technicality please let me know, and then I take back everything I've ever said about this kind of thing.

[Russ Fox]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah but tell me am I going to get a 6 figure fine and/or jail time as stated in the OP if I don't file this form?

[/ QUOTE ]
Last week I listened to an IRS/Treasury Department conference call on foreign bank account reporting. The penalties are:

willful violation: the larger of $100,000 or 50% of the money in the foreign account(s);
non-willful violation: fines of up to $10,000 per account

Willful violators also can be criminally prosecuted (possible felony jail time).

Now, is someone like Curtains likely to face criminal prosecution? Of course not. But since he does know about the law, not filing the TD F 90-22.1 would be, for him, a willful violation. (And, based on the conference call, the Dept. of the Treasury would consider anyone with "large sums" in foreign account(s) who doesn't complete the FBAR requirements to be willfully violating the law.)

Also, everyone who has to complete Form TD F 90-22.1 must also check a box on Schedule B of Form 1040.

Now, given that the IRS will likely have access to all of the Neteller information within a few months, anyone who had $10,000 or more at Neteller at any time during 2006 who doesn't complete the FBAR forms is taking a huge gamble. It's almost certain that the Treasury Dept. will choose one "lucky" taxpayer to criminally prosecute. The IRS & Treasury consider online gambling to be "an abusive offshore tax avoidance scheme;" (http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=106559,00.html) prosecuting someone would have (in their view) a deterrence impact. It's a lottery that you don't want to win.

-- Russ Fox

[SteveL91]

Two quick questions:

Is there an established consensus on filing poker site accounts? I've seen some say no, but by the definition of the form, I would think they'd need to be reported.

Does the form have to be postmarked by June 30th, or does it have to be in the hands of the Treasury Dept. by June 30th?

Thanks,
Steve

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yeah but tell me am I going to get a 6 figure fine and/or jail time as stated in the OP if I don't file this form?

[/ QUOTE ]
Last week I listened to an IRS/Treasury Department conference call on foreign bank account reporting. The penalties are:

willful violation: the larger of $100,000 or 50% of the money in the foreign account(s);
non-willful violation: fines of up to $10,000 per account

Willful violators also can be criminally prosecuted (possible felony jail time).

Now, is someone like Curtains likely to face criminal prosecution? Of course not. But since he does know about the law, not filing the TD F 90-22.1 would be, for him, a willful violation. (And, based on the conference call, the Dept. of the Treasury would consider anyone with "large sums" in foreign account(s) who doesn't complete the FBAR requirements to be willfully violating the law.)

Also, everyone who has to complete Form TD F 90-22.1 must also check a box on Schedule B of Form 1040.

Now, given that the IRS will likely have access to all of the Neteller information within a few months, anyone who had $10,000 or more at Neteller at any time during 2006 who doesn't complete the FBAR forms is taking a huge gamble. It's almost certain that the Treasury Dept. will choose one "lucky" taxpayer to criminally prosecute. The IRS & Treasury consider online gambling to be "an abusive offshore tax avoidance scheme;" (http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=106559,00.html) prosecuting someone would have (in their view) a deterrence impact. It's a lottery that you don't want to win.

-- Russ Fox

[/ QUOTE ]


I'm calling my accountant and I'm sure he will recommend I file this form. However I don't like being told that despite paying taxes I am subject to jailtime because I don't file a form. I simply don't believe this is true and I don't believe that anyone else who filed all their taxes will be going to prison because of this.

I hear so many offhand stories of how so and so went to jail for some minor technical infraction, but I have never read about the details in print anywhere. These stories always come from random people on 2+2 whom I don't know and they are usually not documented at all. I really hate this scaremongering, and if someone could just show me one single example of someone who had to go to a long prison term because of some extremely minor tax issue, please let me see it.

I'd be willing to bet that any examples they make are going to be for those people who severely underpaid their taxes and that it can be proven so by Neteller records.

Again I'm not a tax specialist obviously, so if someone can just point me to one case that's remotely similar to this, where the offender did receive a serious penalty, then I apologize for my comments and I stand corrected.

[Russ Fox]

The deadline for filing the form is a postmark of no later than July 2nd (June 30th falls on a Saturday; thus, the extra two days).

-- Russ Fox

[oldbookguy]

Hey, I wouyld listen to Russ, he is considered an expert on Gambling Taxes and such.

Thanks Russ, I enjoy your Tax Talk Column.

obg

[nanonoko]

Realize I need one more answer for neteller 90221.
#21: Type of Account?

[godofgamblers]

Thank god I was just able to login and checked that my balance didn't hit past 10k until 2007 of January. I guess I have til next year to worry about it. (The same thing probably will apply for next year right?)

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]

Now, given that the IRS will likely have access to all of the Neteller information within a few months, anyone who had $10,000 or more at Neteller at any time during 2006 who doesn't complete the FBAR forms is taking a huge gamble. It's almost certain that the Treasury Dept. will choose one "lucky" taxpayer to criminally prosecute. The IRS & Treasury consider online gambling to be "an abusive offshore tax avoidance scheme;" (http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=106559,00.html) prosecuting someone would have (in their view) a deterrence impact. It's a lottery that you don't want to win.

-- Russ Fox

[/ QUOTE ]

my accountant advised me to fess up for previous years as well, and attach a note that said "sorry, didn't realize i was supposed to file this form. i've been paying all my taxes." there's a statute of limitations for not filing, maybe 7 years or something, so you don't have to file really old stuff.

i spoke to someone at the IRS and she said that because i was approaching them instead of the other way around regarding the previous years, the irs probably wouldn't come after me. obviously not ironclad, but good to hear.

[XChamp]

I think I'm going to file this form tomorrow, and make a decent attempt to fill out it as best as I can.

I agree with Curtains, however. I think this is just scaremongering. How can someone be sent to prison for, literally, not filing 2 sheets of paper with the IRS? That is what we are talking about here. I pay my taxes in full, and supposedly I might be thrown in jail and fined 100 grand because I had 15k in neteller at one point and failed to report it? That is utterly absurd.

[macgyverlol]

No, that has never happened or you would have heard about it.

[Tomcruise]

im not doing this [censored], i payed my taxes, nothing will happen,

[Tomcruise]

on second thought ill prob do it tommmorow.....but seriously though, not a lot of ppl are aware of this, so how do they prosecute a law that no one knows exists

[fleece_me]

[ QUOTE ]
Please give me some proof of this crime. You are saying that these people filed all their taxes, paid for everything they made, but went to jail for 5 years because they didn't specify that it was in a foreign bank account?

I would bet a lot of money that this isn't what happened, but ok prove me wrong and give me a link to this story.

[/ QUOTE ]

This wasn't their only crime, but it was one of the one's they pled guilty too. I agree with you about being targeted for not filing this form for a Neteller account. I don't think it will happen. This doesn't change that it is a real crime and I'm sure there are plenty of people in jail for it, but most of them were guilty of other stuff too.

If you still want links, I will provide them but don't think for a minute any federal crime is something to joke around with. Google this phrase "The information also charges both defendants with filing a false 1998 federal income tax return. According to the information, the returns were false because the defendants failed to inform the Internal Revenue Service that they had foreign bank accounts."

[jungy121]

i'm 19, turning 20 july 30th. i won about 30kish online in 2006, but i didn't file any of it. man i'm startin to get pretty worried. should i file my taxes and then fill that form in the OP? or should i just fill the form in right now and file my taxes for 06 next year?

[G-Diddy20]

in a very similar situation to the above poster. if some could give me a REALISTIC guess as to the chance anything happens to me and a realistic penalty if it does i would greatly appreciate it.

G

[jungy121]

me too. and also, i would like to add that the most i had on neteller at one time was 13k. but like 9 hours later, when i had 13k, i put it on bodog or something. the other times, were like 1-2k balances

[G-Diddy20]

anyone, please?

[1meandog4u]

[ QUOTE ]
the returns were false because the defendants failed to inform the Internal Revenue Service that they had foreign bank accounts."

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure this gets argued a lot, but one could still claim that Neteller is not a foreign bank. It is a money broker. There are some, me included, that rarely keep a balance in Neteller because it was so easy to move it quickly from a U.S. bank account or to an account.

I use it only to broker my withdrawals quicker than a check. Naturally, during one of those transfers, it happened on January 16th...sigh.. and like many here, still waiting for July 13th... the alternate date is "when Hell freezes over.. "

[damaniac]

So there's no consensus on what to do if I never had 10k in Neteller but may have in poker accounts? B/c even if I filed it, what would the number be, since it wouldn't be Neteller's?

[drtofu66]

Chipleeder's post on this thread may answer your question:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...part=1&vc=1 (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=11006869&page=0&fpart=1& vc=1)

[ QUOTE ]

I contacted the IRS/Treasury Department Foreign bank directly and confirmed with them that e-wallets such as Neteller are reportable foreign accounts for U.S. foreign bank account reporting (due July 2, 2007.)

While I was at it I asked about monies at online gambling sites such as PartyPoker. This was their reply:

"As for a response on the Party Poker account, it may be harder to determine if it is reportable. If it is just a transfer service account it is not considered reportable."

It is my belief now that:

Most likely, most of monies are held at PartyPoker, PokerStars, etc. not reportable. While all non-US online e-wallets are reportable.

FYI

Chip CPA


[/ QUOTE ]

That thread toward the end also talks about first year filers of the TD F 90-22.1 form having a really high audit rate (I can't verify it-- just letting you know what they are saying). Just when I thought that the NeTeller headache was coming to an end...

[GDadsForever]

If I didn't pay taxes for 2006 would it be unwise to fill out this form?

What's the best course of action right now if I didn't file taxes for 2006, yet had 10k in Neteller account in 2006. Am I just screwed?

[GDadsForever]

Above post is all hypothetical. I did pay taxes, but am speaking for a friend.