76s multiway - flop solid draw in position - now what?

[matrix]

Party Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.25/$0.50 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh))

SB: $21.06
BB: $70.10
UTG: $23.95 <font color="blue">50/25/3 moran</font>
MP: $62.61 <font color="blue">30/10/5</font>
Hero (CO): $49.75
BTN: $49.75

Preflop: Hero is dealt 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif (6 Players)
<font color="red">UTG raises to $1.00</font>, MP calls $1.00, Hero calls $1.00, 3 folds

Flop: ($3.75) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 Players)
<font color="red">UTG bets $2.50</font>, <font color="red">MP raises to $5.00</font>, Hero ???

Whats the plan from here?

[Vyse]

Call, fold to any further flop raise. See turn action, not afraid to pitch it if similar flop action comes.

[Sweir]

[ QUOTE ]
Call, fold to any further flop raise. See turn action, not afraid to pitch it if similar flop action comes.

[/ QUOTE ]

[relativity_x]

This minraising crap is redonkulous. MP can really have anything here with his minraise. I'd say maybe qx/two hearts? With the way it's played out, I think you have to fold for a few reasons.

Your pretty much drawing to a gutshot here. You don't know if you'll have the best flush, and you're playing a big pot OPP with marginal holdings.

Calling here is bad too because you don't cap the action and add the reasons for folding for not calling here too.

Raising here is slightly better than calling due to the weakness shown, but you're going to be playing your stack on a draw and quite possibly not the best one.

[Vyse]

Raising is horrendous since you don't have much FE. Calling is fine because you're getting great odds and in position, and any further aggression by either UTG or MP puts their hand face up and lets you play perfectly. lawl @ being scared of higher flushes

[relativity_x]

lawl at flat calling a minraise OOP without capping action.

edit:if you're in a multiway pot, other flush draws will stay too. Also, you have plenty of fold equity. The UTG has 20 left and the MP is deeper than us, so you have plenty of fold equity.

edit2: I'm not saying raising is the play. I said folding&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;raising~calling.

[Vyse]

Nice to you see you even attempt to disprove my logic.

[relativity_x]

don't be pissed because you 3.5x 3b when you have a btn caller.

[Vyse]

You're the only one attempting to make it into a pissing contest.

lawl, Gelford is totally right about the laughable state of most 2p2 posters here

[relativity_x]

[ QUOTE ]
Raising is horrendous since you don't have much FE. Calling is fine because you're getting great odds and in position, and any further aggression by either UTG or MP puts their hand face up and lets you play perfectly. lawl @ being scared of higher flushes


[/ QUOTE ]

you're the one criticizing my play. I just gave my advice. No dick waving here.

[Vyse]

I didn't know it wasn't possible to debate the way a hand should be played without emotions coming into the fray. Just get over it.

[C4LL4W4Y]

Calling &gt; Folding &gt; Raising

Raising is the worst play going. What do you want when you have 12-13 out draws? Fold Equity. Not much here.

Folding sucks because even though we don't cap the action, we're allowing UTG into the pot by calling + giving him odds to continue w/ a wide range and thus building a bigger pot for our draw.

Edit: Bad sentence structure

[relativity_x]

I'm not emotional. I'm just saying that I believe folding is the best action here.

After thinking about it, you're right calling is better than raising here.

[Check_The_Nuts]

matrix - this depends entirely on how often dude raises I think. I'd probably cold call if he never does it, but push if he's somewhat active with cbet minraises.

[Vyse]

So why'd you get so upset at my reply?

[relativity_x]

Because you came off as a dick?

[Vyse]

Maybe the problem is you reading too much into posts. Objectively looking at my post, there are no loaded words or suggestive connotation. The problem is people rreading way too much into matter-of-fact posts.

[relativity_x]

[ QUOTE ]
Raising is horrendous since you don't have much FE. Calling is fine because you're getting great odds and in position, and any further aggression by either UTG or MP puts their hand face up and lets you play perfectly. lawl @ being scared of higher flushes


[/ QUOTE ]

horrendus is loaded and lawl is sarcasm. Either way, nice analysis, but you do have FE here. Neither have showed strength and the MP is playing to his aggressive AF, I think a big raise here will get them both to fold some of the time. This is of course to be used with caution.

Let's just forget this happened. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Vyse]

(That's actually just how I type in all posts.)

Okay then.

[matrix]

Our equity here 3 handed is goot. If the turn bricks our equity drops a lot.

If I flat call here UTG moran is the type of player who'll shove a good chunk of his hands with a small stack and then I am folding a hand with goot equity, that could win a large pot.

that was what I was thinking when I raised and made the "worst play going" - I think you guys are probably right and I way overestimated my FE.

I went for a bet that looks like a value bet rather than just shoving..

[ QUOTE ]
Flop: ($3.75) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 Players)
<font color="red">UTG bets $2.50</font>, <font color="red">MP raises to $5.00</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $15.00</font>, UTG calls $12.50, <font color="red">MP raises all-in to $61.61</font> Hero ???

[/ QUOTE ]

UTG tanked and called eventually, MP pushed pretty quickly.

So now what?

I has messed up and landed myself in a tricky decision.

What hand ranges am I up against?

I am playing standard 24/17/2 ish ABC not got out of line yet poker. MP looks like the type of player who is capable of thinking that I have a less than great hand and might be pushing to isolate himself at the SD with megadonk UTG.

I have a lot of hands on donk - but only ~100 on MP who looks like he might well turn out to be a pretty solid sLAG type, I've not seen MP get out of line from standard ABC play yet.

[Nick C]

FWIW, UTG's c-bet is, I'd imagine, at least semi-meaningless (this isn't the kind of board that you'd think would freeze him up), and MP is a pretty aggressive postflop player.

So it does seem possible to me that we have more folding equity here than it appears on first glance. I think it depends on part on how habitual of a c-bettor UTG is and also what MP's impression of UTG appears to be.

I'm not sure what the best play is, though. But I would be deciding between calling and raising.

[Amirsen]

I sure as hell would not fold here. How often does one of the other players really have a higher fd here? The decision between a big raise (which is of course better than instapush because it looks like a set) and a flat call is very tough imho. It really depends on hand reading. If these guys have big hands you should call because of implied odds if they dont you should raise because of folding equity. The action looks very weak to me so i would raise exactly like you did.

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
I went for a bet that looks like a value bet rather than just shoving..

[ QUOTE ]
Flop: ($3.75) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 Players)
<font color="red">UTG bets $2.50</font>, <font color="red">MP raises to $5.00</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $15.00</font>, UTG calls $12.50, <font color="red">MP raises all-in to $61.61</font> Hero ???

[/ QUOTE ]

UTG tanked and called eventually, MP pushed pretty quickly.

So now what?

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't be thrilled by this development, but I do think you have a call here. MP most likely has a big made hand (I'm thinking set, really), and while it's certainly possible that UTG has a better flush draw and is killing most of our outs, he could easily just have top pair or possibly even a hand like JJ instead. I mean, he's a short-stack, and our read is that he's a moron.

We're getting over 2:1 and will improve to a straight or flush nearly half of the time. MP will often have a redraw, I know (and in fact he could be the one with the better flush draw), and there will be times that -- for the main pot anyway -- we're drawing to just a 3-out gutshot versus the two hands we're up against. But I think we're getting good enough odds that the times when both of our draws are live will make up for this.

Edit: Now that I realize we don't have MP covered and it's just approximately $34 more to us, the call seems easier to me. I mean, we're not just getting better than 2:1; we're getting close to 3:1 (after UTG's inevitable call).

[ama0330]

I'd flat it first time. Our equity is good, but our FE isn't, and 3way I'm gonna take a back seat.

Seems like the second part is a call based on pot odds, considering both our flush and straight may still be live.

[fees]

I feel like MP's minraise is weak.. I make this 16, call shove, check any turn where I dont improve

[monkover]

i call the first time for reasons listed above. the odds we´re getting on a call are good already and get even better when utg calls as well.

[TheSalche]

I don't really like calling this all-in bet. It looks like UTG has a flush draw, and in all likelihood a bigger one that ours. He may be an idiot, but I'm putting MP on AQ/AA/sets so I'd be more inclined to say UTG doesn't have a made hand. If this is the case, our equity is practically nothing. I think we already wasted enough money in this pot, time to fold.