Badly played hand, river decision

[Jay_Whufc]

This hand is played absolutely awfully I know but can I call this river bet? I really think he has nothing. What hand can he have that plays like this? Im pretty sure BB has KK/QQ and wont overcall as he seems ok. No read on button

Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.05/$0.10 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh))

Hero (SB): $11.40
BB: $7.40
UTG: $15.25
MP: $9.50
CO: $28.70
BTN: $13.00

Preflop: Hero is dealt J/images/graemlins/heart.gif Q/images/graemlins/club.gif (6 Players)
3 folds, <font color="red">BTN raises to $0.30</font>, Hero calls $0.25, <font color="red">BB raises to $1.00</font>, BTN calls $0.70, Hero calls $0.70

Flop: ($3) A/images/graemlins/club.gif J/images/graemlins/club.gif 6/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 Players)
Hero checks, <font color="red">BB bets $1.10</font>, BTN calls $1.10, Hero calls $1.10

Turn: ($6.30) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 Players)
Hero checks, BB checks, BTN checks

River: ($6.30) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 Players)
Hero checks, BB checks, <font color="red">BTN bets $5.50</font>, [i]Hero ???, BB to act behind

Pot Size: $16.90 ($0.80 Rake)

[TonyRoflmao]

Where is the decision? He could have raised any ace on the button and beat you.

But seriously why would you call preflop there? If you think he is stealing 3-bet, but really QJo is the kind of hand you just fold there b/c it's a trap hand.

[wslee00]

fold pf - and no - you can't call this river bet

[Jay_Whufc]

I am fully aware I should prob have folded pre flop, I was not fully concentrating, oh well.

Does an Ace really play like this is what Im getting at. I really dont think so personally, I think he has nothing tbh

[wslee00]

looks like he doesn't have much, but that would be a marginal call on your part. he's not just betting into you, but also BB, that would definitely lean it more to a fold.

[Jay_Whufc]

[ QUOTE ]
looks like he doesn't have much, but that would be a marginal call on your part. he's not just betting into you, but also BB, that would definitely lean it more to a fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point about the BB, just cos I had him on a hand doesnt mean BTN did.

[monkover]

fold the river, there´s just about no way you are good here. I would have raised the weak flop bet though. i´ve been experimenting with rasing bets on monotone flops and it has been really successful. additionally to quite good fe imo you also have the 2nd nut fd

[ama0330]

Fold at all decision points.

[Jay_Whufc]

[ QUOTE ]
fold the river, there´s just about no way you are good here. I would have raised the weak flop bet though. i´ve been experimenting with rasing bets on monotone flops and it has been really successful. additionally to quite good fe imo you also have the 2nd nut fd

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeh i thought about rsing flop but like i said, i was not concentrating. So what hand are you putting him on that beats us and checks turn?

[Jay_Whufc]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold at all decision points.

[/ QUOTE ]

Real helpful, great insight

[ama0330]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fold at all decision points.

[/ QUOTE ]

Real helpful, great insight

[/ QUOTE ]

What more do you want man, I'm telling you to fold. How much clearer do you want me to be? Fold, Fold, theres no other way I can say it. FOLD

[Jay_Whufc]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fold at all decision points.

[/ QUOTE ]

Real helpful, great insight

[/ QUOTE ]

What more do you want man, I'm telling you to fold. How much clearer do you want me to be? Fold, Fold, theres no other way I can say it. FOLD

[/ QUOTE ]

Reasoning maybe?

Preflop has already been discussed. Why do you fold flop then? As for river, what hand does he have that checks the turn?

[ama0330]

Preflop: QJo sucks. Action is insane. Fold.
Flop: Guess its passable. Drawing to the second nuts and most likely behind but good pot odds.
River: Name a hand you beat other than a bluff.

[wslee00]

jay - what do you put button on?

[Jay_Whufc]

Im put him on bluff with Kc at the time, I dont see how he has an Ace at all.

[CityFan]

[ QUOTE ]
I am fully aware I should prob have folded pre flop, I was not fully concentrating, oh well.

Does an Ace really play like this is what Im getting at. I really dont think so personally, I think he has nothing tbh

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah an ace plays like this. He calls the flop because he's not folding TPGK just because the board's monotone. He checks the turn because he's still scared of a made flush, and maybe he has K/images/graemlins/club.gif himself and hopes to stack someone on the river.

Then he bets the river for value when you and BB check.

[ama0330]

Agree, the river is a sucker bet. Its the "dammit I was afraid but now I know I'm good and I want all that value I missed and maybe someone will call thinking I'm bluffing" bet.

[Jay_Whufc]

[ QUOTE ]

Yeah an ace plays like this. He calls the flop because he's not folding TPGK just because the board's monotone. He checks the turn because he's still scared of a made flush, and maybe he has K/images/graemlins/club.gif himself and hopes to stack someone on the river.

Then he bets the river for value when you and BB check.

[/ QUOTE ]

An Ace playing like that is worse then my QJo play!

[wslee00]

[ QUOTE ]
Im put him on bluff with Kc at the time, I dont see how he has an Ace at all.


[/ QUOTE ]
I'm playing 10NL myself right now, and I don't try to put villains on hands too much, b/c they always end up having some wacky hand. One thing I do find is that they rarely bluff - esp a big bluff on the river.

[ama0330]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Yeah an ace plays like this. He calls the flop because he's not folding TPGK just because the board's monotone. He checks the turn because he's still scared of a made flush, and maybe he has K/images/graemlins/club.gif himself and hopes to stack someone on the river.

Then he bets the river for value when you and BB check.

[/ QUOTE ]

An Ace playing like that is worse then my QJo play!

[/ QUOTE ]

That doesn't make calling any more correct

[TonyRoflmao]

[ QUOTE ]
An Ace playing like that is worse then my QJo play!

[/ QUOTE ]

Apparently not since you obv paid him off.

[Jay_Whufc]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
An Ace playing like that is worse then my QJo play!

[/ QUOTE ]

Apparently not since you obv paid him off.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you think I paid him off?

[Jay_Whufc]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Yeah an ace plays like this. He calls the flop because he's not folding TPGK just because the board's monotone. He checks the turn because he's still scared of a made flush, and maybe he has K/images/graemlins/club.gif himself and hopes to stack someone on the river.

Then he bets the river for value when you and BB check.

[/ QUOTE ]

An Ace playing like that is worse then my QJo play!

[/ QUOTE ]

That doesn't make calling any more correct

[/ QUOTE ]

I never said it did.

[wslee00]

ure being results oriented here if you won this hand... this is still a fold

[ama0330]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
An Ace playing like that is worse then my QJo play!

[/ QUOTE ]

Apparently not since you obv paid him off.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you think I paid him off?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you start a thread otherwise?

Edit: bear in mind that if you called and won, you still paid him off.

[Jay_Whufc]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
An Ace playing like that is worse then my QJo play!

[/ QUOTE ]

Apparently not since you obv paid him off.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you think I paid him off?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you start a thread otherwise?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because I was wondering if anyone else read the hand the same as me? Apparently not!!!

[CityFan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Yeah an ace plays like this. He calls the flop because he's not folding TPGK just because the board's monotone. He checks the turn because he's still scared of a made flush, and maybe he has K/images/graemlins/club.gif himself and hopes to stack someone on the river.

Then he bets the river for value when you and BB check.

[/ QUOTE ]

An Ace playing like that is worse then my QJo play!

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe, but like they say, "this is NL10".

[Jay_Whufc]

[ QUOTE ]

Edit: bear in mind that if you called and won, you still paid him off.

[/ QUOTE ]

How does that work? If I called and won then I read the hand correctly and picked off a bluff nicely....

[Jay_Whufc]

[ QUOTE ]

Maybe, but like they say, "this is NL10".

[/ QUOTE ]

Too true...

[ama0330]

No, if you called and won you lost money because every other time, he has a hand which beats you. If you push 72o preflop and suck out on aces, do you still think it was a good push? Everything in this hand tells you you are beat. You cant see his cards and therefore you have to fold because that's the logical conclusion that you have to arrive at.

[Bad Beat Maker]

I don't know if anyone else posted this but since I don't know his stats or if he is a TAG/LAG etc, but by the way he played he could be holding AK offsuit with the king being a club? Would explain the betting of the top pair with the nut flush draw.

[C4LL4W4Y]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Im put him on bluff with Kc at the time, I dont see how he has an Ace at all.


[/ QUOTE ]
I'm playing 10NL myself right now, and I don't try to put villains on hands too much, b/c they always end up having some wacky hand. One thing I do find is that they rarely bluff - esp a big bluff on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even at 10NL, you should be putting your opponents on a range of hands.

[Perk76]

You post strat hands to learn at 2+2. When individuals are giving you their actions (fold, fold, fold), you keep defending your play. If your not open to others opinions or ideas, dont post.

Your main point after stating you badly played the hand is whether or not to call the river bet. That answer is NO. You will not be good enough times to even make this worth picking off a bluff. Ace rag is definately in the buttons preflop range, as is ATC which hits this type of board. You provided no reads on the button. In readless spots like this you can fold for pot sized bets.

With the BB left to act behind you, if you call in this spot, he may be more likely to call with his KK/QQ hand.

The result of this hand does not matter whether you won or lost. Calling this river is compounding the initial error of playing this hand in the first place.

r/s

[Jay_Whufc]

[ QUOTE ]
No, if you called and won you lost money because every other time, he has a hand which beats you. If you push 72o preflop and suck out on aces, do you still think it was a good push? Everything in this hand tells you you are beat. You cant see his cards and therefore you have to fold because that's the logical conclusion that you have to arrive at.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not everything in this hand tells me Im beat at all, that is the whole point of my post! Im trying to read the action and put him on a hand and my logical conclusion was that I was good enough of the time to call. There is no hand reading in pushing 72o preflop so that example has no relevance what so ever.

[ama0330]

Basically what you are saying is that "hey he could have anything, I call". Thats hope, not logic. You can convince yourself that he has whatever you want him to have, but he probably doesn't.

If you dont understand the relevance of my 72o example in relation to results oriented thinking then there's not much more I need to say, except FOLD

[C4LL4W4Y]

Perk's onto something here...he posted a hand that he himself declared was played badly, and yet OP has somehow arrived at the conclusion that his hand is best.

OP, you have little to no information about your opponents' ranges because of the way you played this hand. Folding river is best because you've just executed the poker equivalent of blindfolding yourself and walking into a room with hot coals covering 60% of the floor.

[Jay_Whufc]

[ QUOTE ]
You post strat hands to learn at 2+2. When individuals are giving you their actions (fold, fold, fold), you keep defending your play. If your not open to others opinions or ideas, dont post.

Your main point after stating you badly played the hand is whether or not to call the river bet. That answer is NO. You will not be good enough times to even make this worth picking off a bluff. Ace rag is definately in the buttons preflop range, as is ATC which hits this type of board. You provided no reads on the button. In readless spots like this you can fold for pot sized bets.

With the BB left to act behind you, if you call in this spot, he may be more likely to call with his KK/QQ hand.

The result of this hand does not matter whether you won or lost. Calling this river is compounding the initial error of playing this hand in the first place.

r/s

[/ QUOTE ]

Good post, I like your thoughts but I posted to get others opinions and Im not defending my play so much, just explaining my thoughts and asking if anyone agreed with them.

[CityFan]

I think it's a fair point. Villain could be bluffing here "quite often".

But don't forget BB still has something to say.

Results?

[Jay_Whufc]

I logically thought through his actions on each street and came to my conclusion. I meant by playing the hand badly, I should have folded pre flop and prob raised the flop. I know this.

So I take it no one at all thinks the same as me then?

[TonyRoflmao]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
An Ace playing like that is worse then my QJo play!

[/ QUOTE ]

Apparently not since you obv paid him off.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you think I paid him off?

[/ QUOTE ]

Something in your OP tipped me off:

Pot Size: $16.90 ($0.80 Rake)

[CityFan]

[ QUOTE ]
I logically thought through his actions on each street and came to my conclusion. I meant by playing the hand badly, I should have folded pre flop and prob raised the flop. I know this.

So I take it no one at all thinks the same as me then?

[/ QUOTE ]

The consensus seems to be that you should have folded, yes. It's true that he COULD be bluffing, but not often enough for you to call.

[Bad Beat Maker]

It's ridiculous to post something to get feedback and completely stick to you own idea when everything in this hand and it's play say's you are beat. Your play makes you look 100% like you are chasing the flush and completely passive. Could you please post in regard to your past reads on BB and BTN? Also what hands they had gone to showdown with that session? So many unknowns here SO FAR that the only good play was to fold which is what everyone is trying to tell you.

[Perk76]

A different way to play this hand is to raise the flop bet. Its an aggressive line and your hoping the Kc is not out there and that you can get a AK/AQ/Ace rag to fold. I am at work so I cant run pokerstove, but at that point in the hand, you are probably not behind a wide range of hands. Alot of aggressive players like to get their stacks in with a strong flush draw and top/mid pair.

By the river though, you are not gonna be good enough to call off that PSB.

[CityFan]

Here's a question in defence of OP...

If villain is betting the river for value, what's he hoping to get called by?

[Jay_Whufc]

So anyway, I did not pay him off. I folded. BB tanked before calling. Here are the results. You will all say Im being results orientated but I read the hand as I saw the action at the time and came to my conclusion. Maybe it wasa lucky guess. Maybe if I had called then BB would have called anyway as someone suggested, who knows? Thanks for all your responses and it was nothing personal Ama

Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.05/$0.10 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh))

Hero (SB): $11.40
BB: $7.40
UTG: $15.25
MP: $9.50
CO: $28.70
BTN: $13.00

Preflop: Hero is dealt J/images/graemlins/heart.gif Q/images/graemlins/club.gif (6 Players)
3 folds, <font color="red">BTN raises to $0.30</font>, Hero calls $0.25, <font color="red">BB raises to $1.00</font>, BTN calls $0.70, Hero calls $0.70

Flop: ($3) A/images/graemlins/club.gif J/images/graemlins/club.gif 6/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 Players)
Hero checks, <font color="red">BB bets $1.10</font>, BTN calls $1.10, Hero calls $1.10

Turn: ($6.30) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 Players)
Hero checks, BB checks, BTN checks

River: ($6.30) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 Players)
Hero checks, BB checks, <font color="red">BTN bets $5.50</font>, Hero folds, BB calls all-in for $5.30
Uncalled bet of $0.20 returned to BTN

Pot Size: $16.90 ($0.80 Rake)

BB had Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif (two pair, Queens and Sixes) and WON (+$8.70)
BTN had Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif K/images/graemlins/club.gif (a pair of Sixes) and LOST (-$7.40)

[Bad Beat Maker]

Still waiting for the reads/showdowns you had from them prior to this hand. Your play here makes it seem like you respect their play?

[Jay_Whufc]

[ QUOTE ]
Still waiting for the reads/showdowns you had from them prior to this hand. Your play here makes it seem like you respect their play?

[/ QUOTE ]

No real reads on either player, thought BB had a big pair/AK pre flop and put him on KK/QQ by the turn.

BTN had only been there about 20 hands but seemed ok.

[TonyRoflmao]

This thread has some highlights:

"Im pretty sure BB has KK/QQ and wont overcall as he seems ok."

"thought BB had a big pair/AK pre flop and put him on KK/QQ by the turn."

"Im put him on bluff with Kc at the time, I dont see how he has an Ace at all."

Great Reads OP! Way to follow through! Try not to lie so much next time you post, okbye.

[Jay_Whufc]

[ QUOTE ]
This thread has some highlights:

"Im pretty sure BB has KK/QQ and wont overcall as he seems ok."

"thought BB had a big pair/AK pre flop and put him on KK/QQ by the turn."

"Im put him on bluff with Kc at the time, I dont see how he has an Ace at all."

Great Reads OP! Way to follow through! Try not to lie so much next time you post, okbye.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was not lying in the slightest bit. I have no reason to lie. My post is 100% genuine of my thought process at the time

It doesnt take a genious what to put BB on, does it? As for him overcalling, Ive already stated that I thought it was possible but unlikely as he seemed ok.

My thinking at the time was that he did not have an Ace, he did not play it like an Ace and he did not have an Ace. Youre right, I did not follow through with my read of the hand, I folded mostly on the same reasoning that all of your responses gave. I was just wondering if anyone was on my wavelength with regard to thought process.

[Jay_Whufc]

Is there really need to try and slaughter me?

[ama0330]

[ QUOTE ]
Is there really need to try and slaughter me?

[/ QUOTE ]

You're not listening. It's very difficult to tell you that the answer to your question is blindingly obvious and hear you still come up with some other conlvoluted piece of reasoning as to why we might all still be wrong.

[Bad Beat Maker]

No need to slaughter anyone. This is a learning community.

[C4LL4W4Y]

Jay, strat posts are here to be discussed. Next time you have a hand that you think is interesting, post your reads along with the action and let the discussion take off from there. You don't need to explain yourself in 10+ posts on the thread. If you're going to post again in a strat thread you'd started, make sure it contributes to meaningful discussion and is not just a rehash of what you (should have) already said.

[Jay_Whufc]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Is there really need to try and slaughter me?

[/ QUOTE ]

You're not listening. It's very difficult to tell you that the answer to your question is blindingly obvious and hear you still come up with some other conlvoluted piece of reasoning as to why we might all still be wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with a lot of what was said, thus why I folded at the time. I think a lot of people are mis-understanding my post. I just wanted to know if anyone read the hand the same way as me. It seems painfully obv to me that BB has KK/QQ. As for BTN, calling the small flop bet suggets a draw rather then a made hand. Any made hand has to raise here. Then on the turn, my draw theory gets a little back up. No Ace or made hand can check behind the turn after being checked to. Thus his river bet is way out of line, thus I felt it was a bluff with a missed draw, the obv draw being the NFD. Is my reasoning that ridiculous? That is how I read the hand but I folded for a lot of the reasons that you guys gave.

[Jay_Whufc]

[ QUOTE ]
Jay, strat posts are here to be discussed. Next time you have a hand that you think is interesting, post your reads along with the action and let the discussion take off from there. You don't need to explain yourself in 10+ posts on the thread. If you're going to post again in a strat thread you'd started, make sure it contributes to meaningful discussion and is not just a rehash of what you (should have) already said.

[/ QUOTE ]

I did post the majority of my thoughts/reads in OP. Fair enough I did repeat them a fair bit but I was repeatedly asked questions, hence why it was 10+ posts.

[bozzer]

grunch:

I'd fold preflop (or 3bet) the first time round, probably fold the second time as well.

flop and turn look good.

river I would call. A missed flush draw makes the most sense of his line, followed by a dodgy ace that was scared of a checkraise on the turn. quads is about as likely as quads can be here too.

[bozzer]

yikes!

so I am the only one (including OP) who calls this??

thread did not deliver btw.

[C4LL4W4Y]

[ QUOTE ]
so I am the only one (including OP) who calls this??

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm more inclined to call if the pot is HU. This spot is pretty marginal IMO.

[Jay_Whufc]

[ QUOTE ]
yikes!

so I am the only one (including OP) who calls this??

thread did not deliver btw.

[/ QUOTE ]

Apparently so, even though I didnt call!! Where was you an hour ago!!!

thread did not deliver?

[bozzer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
so I am the only one (including OP) who calls this??

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm more inclined to call if the pot is HU. This spot is pretty marginal IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. I went with OP's read on that. good call by the BB.

[relativity_x]

eidts

[wslee00]

I think this discussion is completely dependent on the stakes. perhaps if this was a high-limit hand this could be a good discussion, and I actually do agree w/ the thought process of OP, however, at this level I don't think it applies... how many times do you actually see a river bluff at 10NL?

In addition there's so many lines that just don't make sense. I'll try to dig up some stuff from 5NL and 10NL tonight.

[AFennewald]

grunch
preflop both calls were bad. Flop and turn are fine. I think I fold the rier though it is close.

[Jay_Whufc]

[ QUOTE ]
I think this discussion is completely dependent on the stakes. perhaps if this was a high-limit hand this could be a good discussion, and I actually do agree w/ the thought process of OP, however, at this level I don't think it applies... how many times do you actually see a river bluff at 10NL?

In addition there's so many lines that just don't make sense. I'll try to dig up some stuff from 5NL and 10NL tonight.

[/ QUOTE ]

I completely agree with you, my thought process and reasoning would be much more applicable at higher stakes. As you say, there are so many random non-sensical lines at this level, which probably attributed in part to my fold decision. As for river bluffs, I do pick off quite a few even at 10NL, mostly when villain has called me down with what I think is FD and I check it to them when it misses on river. Quite a few villains cant resist having a stab at the pot. Read dependant though

[AFennewald]

[ QUOTE ]
yikes!

so I am the only one (including OP) who calls this??

thread did not deliver btw.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think the river is as easy a fold as most people are idicating. I think the most liklely hands to be betting here are a raggety A and the K of clubs. The bb being in the hand complicates things though and without a better read I'd have to fold.

[Bowlboy]

This thread is way too long considering this is such a marginal hand. I fold this all day with BB still to act behind. I do agree that Button's line does like it could be a missed draw, but BB's line does look like it could be a hand like some Ax hand that is afraid of the made flush. As the hand played out though I dont think that BB is folding so I for sure fold.

FWIW, there is river bluffing in 10NL. A fair bit of it too. In fact some players try to bluff their way through just about every pot they enter. Most bluffing at 10NL comes from bad players because the decent ones know that it's just not profitable to bluff in most situations, or its decent players bluffing other decent players whom they know can make a lay down.

[wslee00]

[ QUOTE ]
FWIW, there is river bluffing in 10NL. A fair bit of it too. In fact some players try to bluff their way through just about every pot they enter. Most bluffing at 10NL comes from bad players because the decent ones know that it's just not profitable to bluff in most situations, or its decent players bluffing other decent players whom they know can make a lay down.

[/ QUOTE ]
ok - i've only been playing 10NL for about 2 weeks now and i just play basic abc so i'll be doing some calling w/ marginal hands if they look like missed draws.