What are the problems with running too nitty at the micro stakes??

[Beesnuts]

Right now I'm running at 14.5/10.25/2.75. I would like to have my stats somewhere in the 21/18/3 kinda range, but I dont want my stats to dictate the way I play at the table. Even with my stats, I start to feel people at my table getting sick of my raises and start calling PF and also calling my c-bets on the flop.

I feel I'm being too reckless if I'm raising ~20% of my hands. I understand that playing that way will get my big hands paid off far more often than playing a 15/10 style, but I just cant bring myself to do it.

I guess I don't have a good grasp on knowing when players are just calling my c-bets to see if I actually have the goods, or if they have a monster and just want me to bury myself.

[TheSalche]

This is 6max right? Open up your range on the button and cutoff if your numbers are this low. You shouldn't be open-limping at all. Read Tien's post on 6max (its in the essential reading section thinger).

[Beesnuts]

I'm pretty sure I've open-limped maybe twice, lol. I understand its a big no-no, and read somewhere that limp/calling is setting money on fire.

This is indeed 6max. I'll read Tien's post and try opening up the button/CO ranges.

What are the actual PROBLEMS running this way?

[carnivalhobo]

[ QUOTE ]



What are the actual PROBLEMS running this way?

[/ QUOTE ]


your potential winrate is lower than someone who plays more hands, and in turn you will experience greater variance. You will be playing fewer small pots, so when you get sucked out on in the few pots you play it will create longer breakeven stretches.

As you move up decent tags will abuse your tightness by stealing you blinds constantly, and simply set mining against your infrequent pfrs. playing super tight also tends to piss off the fish who want to gambool, so you may drive them away if they take notice. also its nowhere near as fun and you learn at a much slower rate as you face fewer marginal situations.

try dropping a few levels and playing 30/20 for a few hundred hands.

[Beesnuts]

[ QUOTE ]
your potential winrate is lower than someone who plays more hands, and in turn you will experience greater variance. You will be playing fewer small pots, so when you get sucked out on in the few pots you play it will create longer breakeven stretches.

As you move up decent tags will abuse your tightness by stealing you blinds constantly, and simply set mining against your infrequent pfrs. playing super tight also tends to piss off the fish who want to gambool, so you may drive them away if they take notice. also its nowhere near as fun and you learn at a much slower rate as you face fewer marginal situations.

try dropping a few levels and playing 30/20 for a few hundred hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, thank you. Everything you said makes good sense, especially with the variance, slower learning, etc.

Man I feel so overwhelmed with the amount of knowledge thats on this board...[censored] overwhelming... /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[vixticator]

You should play what makes you most comfortable. Open up your game slowly, mostly from the Button/CO. I think the results will show you that it is profitable to play looser in position, espcially if you have a good feel for post-flop play. This will build confidence and allow you to open up in EP looser, 3-bet in position PF lighter, etc, over time. Just don't try to do it all at once.

[SykoraG]

Before you open up your raising range, open up your general hand range. Try a 22 / 12 style. (raise all PP, Suited broadway from any pos). Once you get comfortable with that, include suited connectors in the CO / Button and that should bring you up to around 15 - 16 PFR%.

[jessyj07]

IMO there is nothing wrong with running nitty at microstakes if you have good table selection. But raising alot more does have the benefits of table image and you get paid off more often. As a balance it creates more variance though.

I do think that the following posts helped out with my game.
Tiens as mentioned earlier and
Pokey on Blind stealing (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=5348855&page=0&fpart=3&v c=1)
dbitel isolates limpers (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=6073737&an=0&page=0#Post 6073737)

[jonyy6788]

[ QUOTE ]
Before you open up your raising range, open up your general hand range. Try a 22 / 12 style. (raise all PP, Suited broadway from any pos). Once you get comfortable with that, include suited connectors in the CO / Button and that should bring you up to around 15 - 16 PFR%.

[/ QUOTE ]

raising QJs from all positions is a leak!

[SykoraG]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Before you open up your raising range, open up your general hand range. Try a 22 / 12 style. (raise all PP, Suited broadway from any pos). Once you get comfortable with that, include suited connectors in the CO / Button and that should bring you up to around 15 - 16 PFR%.

[/ QUOTE ]

raising QJs from all positions is a leak!

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course everything is relative to your position and villains, but against a table of unknowns that most definately is NOT a leak. Please explain why ... or am I being lvld? lol

[jonyy6788]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Before you open up your raising range, open up your general hand range. Try a 22 / 12 style. (raise all PP, Suited broadway from any pos). Once you get comfortable with that, include suited connectors in the CO / Button and that should bring you up to around 15 - 16 PFR%.

[/ QUOTE ]

raising QJs from all positions is a leak!

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course everything is relative to your position and villains, but against a table of unknowns that most definately is NOT a leak. Please explain why ... or am I being lvld? lol

[/ QUOTE ]

raising QJs from UTG is nasty

[Vyse]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Before you open up your raising range, open up your general hand range. Try a 22 / 12 style. (raise all PP, Suited broadway from any pos). Once you get comfortable with that, include suited connectors in the CO / Button and that should bring you up to around 15 - 16 PFR%.

[/ QUOTE ]

raising QJs from all positions is a leak!

[/ QUOTE ]

It's really a lot. A very good player told me if you're folding T9s UTG, you're losing money. I agree.

[SykoraG]

wtf micro nits. 109S is much different than QJs.

[Ikaika]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]



What are the actual PROBLEMS running this way?

[/ QUOTE ]


your potential winrate is lower than someone who plays more hands, and in turn you will experience greater variance. You will be playing fewer small pots, so when you get sucked out on in the few pots you play it will create longer breakeven stretches.

As you move up decent tags will abuse your tightness by stealing you blinds constantly, and simply set mining against your infrequent pfrs. playing super tight also tends to piss off the fish who want to gambool, so you may drive them away if they take notice. also its nowhere near as fun and you learn at a much slower rate as you face fewer marginal situations.

try dropping a few levels and playing 30/20 for a few hundred hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

ur so smart, will you teach me to deadlift?

[china_hard]

There is no problem with running 14/10/2.75 in the micros. These are almost identical to my stats for $25nl and $50nl, where i maintained over 5ptbb/100 hands over decent samples.

As others have mentioned, this is probably not a winning strategy at higher limits, although I do not play many more hands than this when at $100nl now. However, that is at higher stakes. You aren't at higher stakes. Don't let this forum make you fell as though you HAVE to play 21/18 to win in these games cause thats just plain not true.

[bozzer]

QJs>T9s obv?

[matrix]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]



What are the actual PROBLEMS running this way?

[/ QUOTE ]


your potential winrate is lower than someone who plays more hands, and in turn you will experience greater variance. You will be playing fewer small pots, so when you get sucked out on in the few pots you play it will create longer breakeven stretches.

As you move up decent tags will abuse your tightness by stealing you blinds constantly, and simply set mining against your infrequent pfrs. playing super tight also tends to piss off the fish who want to gambool, so you may drive them away if they take notice. also its nowhere near as fun and you learn at a much slower rate as you face fewer marginal situations.

try dropping a few levels and playing 30/20 for a few hundred hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Quoted to point out how awesome this advice is is.

I've just been looking at my position stats in PT for the past ~50k hands ish and I'm running 30/20 OTB dropping steadily to 18/16 UTG. ~25/18 overall.

What I found really useful was to sit down with Pokerstove one day punch in ranges I planned to raise/call with and note the % and then work out what my stats would look like if I played that way.

[corsakh]

Nothing wrong. Personal preference. Depends on how many tables you play and how much variance you are willing to take.

[ama0330]

matrix, you play 18 vpip utg?????? yowza


fwiw I play 15 vpip on the weekend because maniac players are so easily exploitable when you wait for a hand, and so totally unexplotable if you play loose and try to pressure them. its good to loosen up but make sure you loosen up for the right reasons.

[ShipitFMA]

Am i wrong in saying you're losing some EV because at these levels you can outplay the vast majority of your opponants playing more than 14% of your hands? This is what comes to mind when i think about it

[ama0330]

That may be true but you are generalising when you say "you can outplay your opponents" - more often than not at uNL outplaying means waiting for a hand and valuebetting, not spewing 3 barrels against an idiot who can't fold.

[bozzer]

more vpip --> more money.

[ama0330]

[ QUOTE ]
more vpip --> more money.

[/ QUOTE ]

so we should all be playing 100 vpip? come on man you cant generalise like that, I know youre joking but really

[bozzer]

matrix that is a huge UTG vpip. When I run 25/20, I have a looser button range and a tighter UTG range.

[bozzer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
more vpip --> more money.

[/ QUOTE ]

so we should all be playing 100 vpip? come on man you cant generalise like that, I know youre joking but really

[/ QUOTE ]

in all seriousness I thought your point was very good: outplaying our opponents at these stakes means valuebetting better hands.

I do think that playing 15/12 is giving up a ton of value on positional raises + cbets though.

[corsakh]

[ QUOTE ]
Am i wrong in saying you're losing some EV because at these levels you can outplay the vast majority of your opponants playing more than 14% of your hands? This is what comes to mind when i think about it

[/ QUOTE ]

I find that 20/16 over about 100k works best for me. Its just a preference really, if its EV-, its very marginal and given increased variance completely negligible.

[Gelford]

[ QUOTE ]


raising QJs from all positions is a leak!

[/ QUOTE ]

No /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Fiksdal]

My thoughts on the advantages of playing semi-loose aggressive with a positional awareness:

1. More postflop spots against fishies when you have position. This = sexy time, for obvious reasons. We, as thinking players, have an edge against our opponents post-flop. Every time we play a pot with room for manouvering postflop against these fish, especially when we have position, we have just put ourselves in a profitable situation. Also, playing a lot of hands gets you in a lot of tough spots. Getting experience with tough spots is really crucial.

2. Active image. I promise, this gets you tons of action. The fish get angry. They want to see a cheap flop all the time, and especially if you start using your BTN to raise over their limps, they get really frustrated. So this gives you the ability to felt like TPGK frequently and still be nicely ahead of the ranges that the angry fish are going to the felt against you with. "OMG THIS SUCKER RAISES ALL THE [censored] TIME AND ALWAYS BETS THE FLOP, I KNOW HE HAS NOTHING, I HAVE A PAIR AND I'M ALL-IN. Fish love convinving themselves that the big turn PSB, and the river shove, are also bluffs. I play a really active game, and you have no idea how often this has happened to me. Angry fish who I have been raising over the limps of and cbetting out, eventually stacking off with second pair when I decide to put 100bb in with tptk or whatever qualifies to valuetown him with.

3. (connects with 2) Fish usually know very little about position and why it is important. If you've been raising a lot from the BTN and CO, they usually don't understand that you will be more careful UTG. So when you raise from UTG with AA and an active image, an angry fish sitting in the BB with KTs will typically call because "this guy could have ANYTHING!! I just saw him raising with SEVEN JACK! NOT EVEN SUITED!!" Of course he deoesn't realize that that was from the button, and this time you are under the gun. Anyway, then he will usually proceed to stack off on K/T-high flops. Imagine, I'm pretty sure some of the fish have notes on me saying "raised with 74s and bluffed on the flop." Then they are in a spot against me where I shove with the best hand on the river for a big PSB, and they see that player note and decide to call, cuz "they know I'm crazy." Most of you have seen these fish on the tables, and know how studpid they are. Imagine what you can convince them to think if you try. You will see a whole new level of stupidity.

4. Straight forward fold equity. You steal blinds. A lot of people don't see the value in this, but if you do this enough and successfully, it actually helps your winrate a lot. Also cbetting is +EV just in itself usually.

5. People won't be able to setmine or play for implied odds againt you profitably. Here is an example hand.

Hero in MP (100bb)
Villain in BB (100bb)

Villain has 22.

UTG folds, Hero raises to 4bb, 3 folds, Villain...

Imagine hero is 13/9/4. His range from the MP here is actually pretty strong. Villain can very profitably call with his pair, because hero is likely to be strong and pay him off when he flops a set. Not every time of course, but fairly often given his strong range.

On the other hand, imagine if hero is 27/24/3. This is a totally different situation! Clearly the EV of villain calling is now drastically lower! Hero could have all kinds of stuff here. All the pairs, suited connectors, lots of broadway combinations, suited aces maybe, stuff like that. If villain flops a set, most of the time all he will make is the contiuniation bet! Of course some of the time hero will have AA and stack off when villain flops a set, but the strong pairs are such a tiny part of heros range. I'm guessing calling with the intention of playing back at hero on the flop has a higher EV than calling for set value. In fact I'm not sure if calling for set value is +EV at all, cuz most of the time villain misses and donates 4bb to hero. The times he hit a set, he is unlikely to win a big pot.

Think about these things. Before your next session, set PA hud to display how the players respond to cbets (fold%, call%, raise%). Then play a maximum of 4 tables (8 tabling sucks, DUCY) and try opening up your game. I think this is what a lot of you losing uNL players are missing.

[Shoe Lace]

Fiksdal, nice post. Would you mind going into #5 in more detail?

I don't understand this part ->
"In fact I'm not sure if calling for set value is +EV at all, cuz most of the time villain misses and donates 4bb to hero. The times he hit a set, he is unlikely to win a big pot."

Wouldn't this be the case regardless of what hero's VPIP is? I will attempt to cbet a flop in position vs a non-station if it's checked to me.

Neither of our heros are stations. If his VPIP is 13, I'll be much less inclined to cbet. If his VPIP is 27, I'll be more inclined to cbet.

If either player leads into me OOP, I'm going getting out of there unimproved most of the time. I may peel one out just to see if they continue betting on the turn if the board looks whacky (I probably wouldn't do this vs the 13 VPIP guy).

[Fiksdal]

The tigher someone is, the easier it is to play for implied odds. If you are 200bbs deep with a 8/4 villain and he raises UTG, you can easily call with any two cards for implied odds, because villain has like TT+ AK almost always, and if you hit two pair or better you are almot always stacking him. So that's 4 bbs invested to get 196bbs in with 90% equity when you nail the flop. Extreme example, but should explain the concept.

[matrix]

[ QUOTE ]
matrix that is a huge UTG vpip. When I run 25/20, I have a looser button range and a tighter UTG range.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes it is, I'm not recommending it for general use /images/graemlins/smile.gif I am finding a lot of spots on tables where I feel comfortable playing against people postflop, say I've been sat at the table for like ~100+ hands and have a good read on most of the villains by then I think a lot more hands become profitable from more positions if you can reliably put people on accurate ranges most of the time.

When I first sit at a table I am super tight UTG.

[munkey]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]



What are the actual PROBLEMS running this way?

[/ QUOTE ]


your potential winrate is lower than someone who plays more hands, and in turn you will experience greater variance. You will be playing fewer small pots, so when you get sucked out on in the few pots you play it will create longer breakeven stretches.

As you move up decent tags will abuse your tightness by stealing you blinds constantly, and simply set mining against your infrequent pfrs. playing super tight also tends to piss off the fish who want to gambool, so you may drive them away if they take notice. also its nowhere near as fun and you learn at a much slower rate as you face fewer marginal situations.

try dropping a few levels and playing 30/20 for a few hundred hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

So true.
These are the problems I sometimes experience playing nitty/tight [18/12 min.] though my game has opened up @ NL100 and I run 22/17 often - it really depends on the table -lots of loose players in the blinds I tighten up. Lots of limpers I limp behind speculative hands and vbet when I hit to death so my PFR drops - these are just uNL adaptions to the games we play. @ NL100 I raise 1 limper or more and they fold more often than they call and then they often fcbet anyway.

I do get my blinds stolen quite a bit but I steal alot too so I guess that makes up for it -plus I abuse my image often to 3bet BTN/CO even UTG with callers to rake in preflop pots and try to make decent bluffs [ though I blew 50bbs yesterday in 2ndbarrel ages vs CS/fish types bad munkey /images/graemlins/frown.gif]. The thing is if you're willing to gamble/bluff postflop the fish won't notice whether you play 3% less hands than the other tighties @ the table -as long as you give action you'll get some back.

[jk1986]

Nice post Fiksdal, the only thing I don't agree with is 3), I think while its true to an extent, I still find that the fishies respect an UTG raise a whole lot more than a button raise.

[Shoe Lace]

That does explain it, thanks. It's actually funny. I came up with a few hands where we pit our 27/24/3 hero OOP with ?? cards vs a villain in position with 22.

Our 27/24/3 hero is such a jerk. I can't even beat him on paper or get him to stack off when villain hits his set.

27/24/3 Hero raises from CO with ??.
Villain calls with 22 OTB.

Flop -> K73 ...2 tone
Hero bets 70-100% of the pot.
Villain folds.

27/24/3 Hero raises from CO with ??.
Villain calls with 22 OTB.

Flop -> A74 ...rainbow
Hero checks.
Villain bets 70-100% of the pot.
Hero calls.
Turn -> 9 ...possible diamond draw.
Hero bets 70-100% of the pot.
Villain folds.

27/24/3 Hero raises from CO with ??.
Villain calls with 22 OTB.

Flop -> J92 ...2 tone
Hero bets 70-100% of the pot.
Villain makes a proper raise.
Hero folds.

27/24/3 Hero raises from CO with ??.
Villain calls with 22 OTB.

Flop -> K2T ...monotone
Hero bets 70%-100% of the pot.
Villain tanks... and makes a proper raise.
Hero instantly shoves.

[LordBrun]

[ QUOTE ]
Nice post Fiksdal, the only thing I don't agree with is 3), I think while its true to an extent, I still find that the fishies respect an UTG raise a whole lot more than a button raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. Sexton and Chad has tought the fish all about stealing teh blinds >_<

[poker_n00b]

Fiksdal:

Take 100 raised hands, say OTB, from two heroes WHERE villain called with 22. One with 8% preflop raise and the other one with 20% preflop raises.

Assume both heroes cbet the flop equally. However first hero will on average have a stronger hand. Both heroes will be stacked equally when villain flops a set. It is not that the second hero gets away from his KK while first one does not. Or is this what you imply?

I cannot see how villain makes more profit from first hero with 22.

Edit:

Concerning set mining by villain versus tight hero.


Well, I did some math. It basically comes down to this, in same timespan/amount of hands :

1) villain has 10 times a set vs hero's 20% range
2) villain has 4 times a set vs hero's 8% range

[bozzer]

[ QUOTE ]
Fiksdal:

Take 100 raised hands, say OTB, from two heroes WHERE villain called with 22. One with 8% preflop raise and the other one with 20% preflop raises.

Assume both heroes cbet the flop equally. However first hero will on average have a stronger hand. Both heroes will be stacked equally when villain flops a set. It is not that the second hero gets away from his KK while first one does not. Or is this what you imply?

I cannot see how villain makes more profit from first hero with 22.

[/ QUOTE ]


Its true that both heros may get stacked equally often when they are holding a strong hand, but against the looser hero the villain will be -4bbs far more often because he can't play his ducks OOP. Hence, the overall value of calling for set value vs the loose villain is lower and possibly -EV.

[Shoe Lace]

[ QUOTE ]
I cannot see how villain makes more profit from first hero with 22.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think he meant it like this:

VS the 13/x/x hero, it's likely he's holding TT+/AK

When this hero has an overpair, it's likely his stack is getting in at some point if villain catches his set.

The only time hero might dodge out is when his AK wiffs.

Vs the 27/x/x hero, his range is "a lot".

When villain flops his set with 22, it's likely that our hero did not catch a big piece of the flop so he folds on the flop, or maybe on the turn -- he's definitely not going to be investing his stack often though.

It really comes down to the 27 vpip hero's ability to laydown a questionable hand. If he's running those stats constantly and has a lot of hands played it's probably safe to assume this hero knows when to lay down the 2nd best hand.

If anything I'd bet you LOSE more with your set vs the looser hero because bottom set might not be the best hand when the money goes in (or at best a coinflip/small favorite vs a sick draw).

Of course you'll win your fair share of them too.

Edit:
To make it clearer. Vs the super tight hero, you know your set is good here most of the time. At best hero is drawing to 2 outs, unless he has you crushed with an overset.

Vs the looser hero you have no idea wtf you're up against. Maybe a flopped straight, insane draw, middle/top set, 2 pair, overpair, etc..

[Fiksdal]

PN

look at it this way

Big blind is $.5, 6 handed

Stacks:

CO: $60
Hero: $60

Preflop: Hero is SB with 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif2/images/graemlins/club.gif
2 folds, CO raises to $2, BTN folds, Hero calls $2.

Scenario 1: CO is 9 / 6 / 4.5
Scenario 2: CO is 25 / 20 / 2.5

In which scenario do you think Heros call has the highest expected value?

Clearly it's in scenario 1. DUCY?

Hopefully you do.

Thus, playing loose makes it harder for people to play for implied odds against you.

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
Hero in MP (100bb)
Villain in BB (100bb)

Villain has 22.

UTG folds, Hero raises to 4bb, 3 folds, Villain...

Imagine hero is 13/9/4. His range from the MP here is actually pretty strong. Villain can very profitably call with his pair, because hero is likely to be strong and pay him off when he flops a set. Not every time of course, but fairly often given his strong range.

On the other hand, imagine if hero is 27/24/3. This is a totally different situation! Clearly the EV of villain calling is now drastically lower! Hero could have all kinds of stuff here. All the pairs, suited connectors, lots of broadway combinations, suited aces maybe, stuff like that. If villain flops a set, most of the time all he will make is the contiuniation bet! Of course some of the time hero will have AA and stack off when villain flops a set, but the strong pairs are such a tiny part of heros range. I'm guessing calling with the intention of playing back at hero on the flop has a higher EV than calling for set value. In fact I'm not sure if calling for set value is +EV at all, cuz most of the time villain misses and donates 4bb to hero. The times he hit a set, he is unlikely to win a big pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, calling just for set value is basically a donation here. You can't play set-or-fold from the BB versus the 27/24/3 guy.

However, if you want to play, one postflop strategy that will be more successful than set-or-fold begins with a call of the flop auto/c-bet on, say, flops that don't contain an ace or two broadway cards. If MP bets again on the turn, BB can give it up. If not, well, then frequently he's just got one more card to dodge on the river.

I don't think this is like the perfect answer to MP's raise for the BB -- and of course if both players are good and are at the table together for a long time, they're both going to trying to make adjustments -- but it is a better answer than set-or-fold.

Start mixing in some flop checkraises and/or donkbets with the UI 22 and start 3-betting wider preflop than we usually see from our micro opponents, though, and suddenly BB is going to be making MP really work for his money (assuming BB can play reasonably well this way).

I guess what I'm getting at is that, although I think the aggressive stealing-style strategy that's often recommended here is one that I think can be successful at micro NL (and I think a tighter strategy can be as well), this style of building big pots with preflop raises from a wide range of hands followed by practically an auto/c-bet is not, like, foolproof. As with any strategy (barring a theoretical "perfect" strategy, whatever that strategy might be), it works best if your opponents cooperate with the strategy and don't exploit its potential weaknesses very well.

Obvious example: Open-raising 1/4 or more of one's hands from the Button and then folding the bulk of that range to a big 3-bet from either of the blinds is probably a reasonable adaptive strategy to the way the micro players tend to play, but it's far from being a sound theoretical strategy as a default play. If SB folds, BB can 3-bet any two cards and make an instant profit . . .

Of course, if BB does this very often, Button will start calling (or reraising) those 3-bets lighter, and he might start stealing less in the first place. And BB will try to counter-adjust, and so on.

Anyway, in NL, I haven't played above NL50, but I do seriously doubt that a 27/24 strategy, as employed in the micros, is going to work at, like, NL600. The 27/24 part very well might still work, but our opponents are unlikely to let us successfully combine that preflop strategy with a postflop strategy of pushing hard but then folding when we face resistance unless we have a big hand. We're going to get played back at lighter and floated more skillfully, and, if we don't watch out, what we'll often end up doing in practice is building a pot for our opponent to steal from us, instead of vice-versa as we hoped. So we're going to have to make adjustments as we move up whether we played 27/24 in the micros or we played 18/12.

And this is kind of a rambling post, I guess, but hopefully there's some value in it anyway.

[C4LL4W4Y]

27/24 has a better shot at working in the higher limits than at uNL, provided you are a good player that knows how to play flops.

[DickieBets]

Referring to Fiskal's point 3 :

I'm not disagreeing with the post and I appreciate the ideas, but I wonder if at the low stakes I play, 10NL, if loosening up like that is as good as you say. Obviously, I'd prefer to be in position, but a calling station will call or check-call - it doesn't seem to matter. So you raise with J-7 from the button and you flop a J - I presume you c-bet, but the guy has his beloved J-9 sooted UTG - ( why does he care if he's UTG or not? ) he'll sit there and check-call - if you check - he'll bet and you either call and lose (weak) or raise to see where you're at (expensive) or fold. There's probably another TAG or a LAG at the table and he'll start seeing you're raising light and he'll start 3-betting you. So now, if you start running hot, you'll make some money, but if you're missing the flops you'll spew a lot of bets like that. I guess that's where experience will help, but it really does seem like tight is better, at least at 10NL.

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
27/24 has a better shot at working in the higher limits than at uNL, provided you are a good player that knows how to play flops.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you're saying it's hard (or at least harder) to make this style work in the micros?

Anyway, I didn't mean to say that a 27/24 strategy can't work at higher levels (and, actually, I don't think I did say that, but it was a rambling post, I know). But I do think the postflop follow-up is going to have to be more nuanced/sophisticated than the simpler postflop strategies that work in the micros.

Which isn't a profound statement or anything, I realize. But another point that I was trying to make is that we shouldn't kid ourselves that all of the things we do to adapt to the way NL25/NL50 plays are entirely sound from a theoretical standpoint. So that's why we're going to have to adjust when up against better players.

[C4LL4W4Y]

I think it is harder, because the whole point of playing more hands is to disguise your range and make it easier to get your monsters paid. uNL opponents don't understand what you're doing, and end up putting you in more blind spots than higher level opponents would. While they're easier to play against postflop, it's more profitable to play a 22/18 game at uNL and value bet the [censored] out of them than to try and make bold maneuvers after the flop.

[dfkdfk]

There are some excellent points made here. Personally I've been playing 10NL @ 20-23 VPIP and its been working great over the 3k or so hands I've played at this level... obviously there is more to the game then simple VPIP (my style is aggro) and I need a lot more hands to substantiate any claims but playing this range in position has worked well so far. Lets see what happens in another 10k hands...

[Beesnuts]

Some awesome advice here. I 100% agree with what Fiksdal is saying about the 14/8/4 player vs. the 24/20/2.5 player. If the 14/8/4 player makes a 4xBB raise PF and you have a speculative hand like 78s its a no brainer call because when you flop 2-pair or a monster draw that ends up hitting, you're gonna felt this guy. He is gonna have AQ+, TT+ and is gonna c-bet the flop and will probably fire another bullet on the turn

Makes a lot of sense

[Bowlboy]

Great thread and props to fiksdal and Nick. I've been recently thinking that against a good tag setmining just is'nt profitable because you dont get paid when you hit unless villain has at least an overpair or big draw, which is rare against a 25/20 tag.

I still dont like the idea of folding pp's preflop for one raise though. If the player is a thinker I will occasionally just 3bet them with any PP. This works great if their range is wide enough as they'll dump a lot of stuff right away or fold the flop a fair bit too. And there's simply nothing better than flopping a set of deuces in a 3bet pot /images/graemlins/smile.gif. Basically, though if you're not getting action on your sets, then you're not donking, raising, and floating enough flops. NLHTAP discusses on how profitable it is to be more aggressive preflop and on the flop. At uNL I dont think it's that great idea to get too involved in betting/calling turns and rivers without something strong or a good read, but the extra action you give preflop and on the flop can get you paid off on the turns and rivers which are usually much more important.

[tarheeljks]

how can you say this

[ QUOTE ]
Great thread and props to fiksdal and Nick. I've been recently thinking that against a good tag setmining just is'nt profitable because you dont get paid when you hit unless villain has at least an overpair or big draw, which is rare against a 25/20 tag.

[/ QUOTE ]

and then say this

[ QUOTE ]
I still dont like the idea of folding pp's preflop for one raise though. If the player is a thinker I will occasionally just 3bet them with any PP. This works great if their range is wide enough as they'll dump a lot of stuff right away or fold the flop a fair bit too. And there's simply nothing better than flopping a set of deuces in a 3bet pot /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

[/ QUOTE ]

[wslee00]

[ QUOTE ]
how can you say this

[ QUOTE ]
Great thread and props to fiksdal and Nick. I've been recently thinking that against a good tag setmining just is'nt profitable because you dont get paid when you hit unless villain has at least an overpair or big draw, which is rare against a 25/20 tag.

[/ QUOTE ]

and then say this

[ QUOTE ]
I still dont like the idea of folding pp's preflop for one raise though. If the player is a thinker I will occasionally just 3bet them with any PP. This works great if their range is wide enough as they'll dump a lot of stuff right away or fold the flop a fair bit too. And there's simply nothing better than flopping a set of deuces in a 3bet pot /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]
i see no contradiction here.

[Shizzle12345]

[ QUOTE ]
Anyway, then he will usually proceed to stack off on K/T-high flops.

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No offence dude, but fish usually stack off with those hands anyway. When they suckout and u ask them why they called the push, they say, hey I had Top pair with decent kicker.

If they actually NOTICE u raising alot of hands, theyr not fish anymore in my book lol. Cos usually when i sit with a 50/6/1 guy or something he doesnt notice [censored]. I can fold for 25 minutes and he will still stack with those hands. Those guy sjust look at their hands and think hey i got top pair lets go allin.

Usually the semi 'good players' think like this, they know something about the game, and think theyr something, and pay a little attention.

[poker_n00b]

[ QUOTE ]
PN

look at it this way

Big blind is $.5, 6 handed

Stacks:

CO: $60
Hero: $60

Preflop: Hero is SB with 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif2/images/graemlins/club.gif
2 folds, CO raises to $2, BTN folds, Hero calls $2.

Scenario 1: CO is 9 / 6 / 4.5
Scenario 2: CO is 25 / 20 / 2.5

In which scenario do you think Heros call has the highest expected value?

Clearly it's in scenario 1. DUCY?

Hopefully you do.

Thus, playing loose makes it harder for people to play for implied odds against you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, I see. In scenario 1. Was little bit confused about some [censored].

However it also means more hands become profitable versus a lag player, because of his lighter raising range.

[tarheeljks]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
how can you say this

[ QUOTE ]
Great thread and props to fiksdal and Nick. I've been recently thinking that against a good tag setmining just is'nt profitable because you dont get paid when you hit unless villain has at least an overpair or big draw, which is rare against a 25/20 tag.

[/ QUOTE ]

and then say this

[ QUOTE ]
I still dont like the idea of folding pp's preflop for one raise though. If the player is a thinker I will occasionally just 3bet them with any PP. This works great if their range is wide enough as they'll dump a lot of stuff right away or fold the flop a fair bit too. And there's simply nothing better than flopping a set of deuces in a 3bet pot /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]
i see no contradiction here.

[/ QUOTE ]

he said he doesn't like to setmine against good tags, but he doesn't want to fold and will 3bet if their range is wide enough. if you are calling a solid tag's raise w/22-66, you are setmining. if their range is wide enough that they can be profitably 3bet w/any pp, they aren't tags. i thought you were still talking about tags when you mentioned 3betting w/any pp. if you weren't, never mind.

[Bowlboy]

[ QUOTE ]
he said he doesn't like to setmine against good tags, but he doesn't want to fold and will 3bet if their range is wide enough. if you are calling a solid tag's raise w/22-66, you are setmining. if their range is wide enough that they can be profitably 3bet w/any pp, they aren't tags. i thought you were still talking about tags when you mentioned 3betting w/any pp. if you weren't, never mind.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really sure what's so confusing about my post but meh /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I never said I dont like setmining good tags but I did agree with previous posters (was either fiks or nick not sure) that setmining good players is'nt profitable. So as an alternative, I said that I occasionally 3bet them with any PP. I really dont see how this is'nt profitable against somebody who will lay it down preflop most of the time. I'm already 3betting Tags with 99+ and AQ+. So I'm talking about mixing in 22-88 here. As far as 3betting light I dont think this is overdoing it. Again, I said occasionally.

I'd also like to add that you're not necessarily setmining a tag by calling with low PP's with the intention of stealing the pot away from them on a favorable flop.

[ben wb]

[ QUOTE ]
My thoughts on the advantages of playing semi-loose aggressive with a positional awareness:

1. More postflop spots against fishies when you have position. This = sexy time, for obvious reasons. We, as thinking players, have an edge against our opponents post-flop. Every time we play a pot with room for manouvering postflop against these fish, especially when we have position, we have just put ourselves in a profitable situation. Also, playing a lot of hands gets you in a lot of tough spots. Getting experience with tough spots is really crucial.

2. Active image. I promise, this gets you tons of action. The fish get angry. They want to see a cheap flop all the time, and especially if you start using your BTN to raise over their limps, they get really frustrated. So this gives you the ability to felt like TPGK frequently and still be nicely ahead of the ranges that the angry fish are going to the felt against you with. "OMG THIS SUCKER RAISES ALL THE [censored] TIME AND ALWAYS BETS THE FLOP, I KNOW HE HAS NOTHING, I HAVE A PAIR AND I'M ALL-IN. Fish love convinving themselves that the big turn PSB, and the river shove, are also bluffs. I play a really active game, and you have no idea how often this has happened to me. Angry fish who I have been raising over the limps of and cbetting out, eventually stacking off with second pair when I decide to put 100bb in with tptk or whatever qualifies to valuetown him with.

3. (connects with 2) Fish usually know very little about position and why it is important. If you've been raising a lot from the BTN and CO, they usually don't understand that you will be more careful UTG. So when you raise from UTG with AA and an active image, an angry fish sitting in the BB with KTs will typically call because "this guy could have ANYTHING!! I just saw him raising with SEVEN JACK! NOT EVEN SUITED!!" Of course he deoesn't realize that that was from the button, and this time you are under the gun. Anyway, then he will usually proceed to stack off on K/T-high flops. Imagine, I'm pretty sure some of the fish have notes on me saying "raised with 74s and bluffed on the flop." Then they are in a spot against me where I shove with the best hand on the river for a big PSB, and they see that player note and decide to call, cuz "they know I'm crazy." Most of you have seen these fish on the tables, and know how studpid they are. Imagine what you can convince them to think if you try. You will see a whole new level of stupidity.

4. Straight forward fold equity. You steal blinds. A lot of people don't see the value in this, but if you do this enough and successfully, it actually helps your winrate a lot. Also cbetting is +EV just in itself usually.

5. People won't be able to setmine or play for implied odds againt you profitably. Here is an example hand.

Hero in MP (100bb)
Villain in BB (100bb)

Villain has 22.

UTG folds, Hero raises to 4bb, 3 folds, Villain...

Imagine hero is 13/9/4. His range from the MP here is actually pretty strong. Villain can very profitably call with his pair, because hero is likely to be strong and pay him off when he flops a set. Not every time of course, but fairly often given his strong range.

On the other hand, imagine if hero is 27/24/3. This is a totally different situation! Clearly the EV of villain calling is now drastically lower! Hero could have all kinds of stuff here. All the pairs, suited connectors, lots of broadway combinations, suited aces maybe, stuff like that. If villain flops a set, most of the time all he will make is the contiuniation bet! Of course some of the time hero will have AA and stack off when villain flops a set, but the strong pairs are such a tiny part of heros range. I'm guessing calling with the intention of playing back at hero on the flop has a higher EV than calling for set value. In fact I'm not sure if calling for set value is +EV at all, cuz most of the time villain misses and donates 4bb to hero. The times he hit a set, he is unlikely to win a big pot.

Think about these things. Before your next session, set PA hud to display how the players respond to cbets (fold%, call%, raise%). Then play a maximum of 4 tables (8 tabling sucks, DUCY) and try opening up your game. I think this is what a lot of you losing uNL players are missing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Great post, agree with all of this. Was going to write something like this but you've covered pretty much everything.