Betting air HU into 50/10 type limpers in the BB.

[JROK777]

For awhile I was betting out most flops(w ATC's) in the BB when there was a open limper. I was attacking the 50/10 button limpers. I figured they would miss the flop 65% of the time. When they called, I would also double barrell on any turn face card. I wouldn't auto bet on highly coordinated flops. I.E 910J etc. Do you think this strategy would show a profit? I hate open limpers. You know they are going to limp and then min bet every flop. I was taking this play away from them. Good or bad?

[Vyse]

Sounds pretty bad, but maybe you can surprise me.

[Nick C]

I like open-limpers, but I do bluff into them HU on the flop a fair amount of the time. I try not to make it obvious though (I tend not to bet ATC if I've been doing that a lot recently or if, by circumstance, I've been leading out a lot because I've been flopping pairs or good draws).

I don't have much experience with the turn second barrel on face cards. The reason I don't have much experience with it is that my guess is that it's not such a great idea. The people at my tables who try to run the table over do frequently seem to have at least temporary success, though, for what that's worth.

In any case, I doubt leading ATC into an open-limper on safe-looking flops is massively profitable or anything, but I think it can be a good play in moderation. I do also tend to lead my flopped monsters into them, but, of course, those don't come up as much.

[KEW]

I much prefer to punish open button limpers by raising not by letting them see a cheap flop with there trash hands(like Ace rag and sooted BS)..

[Nick C]

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I much prefer to punish open button limpers by raising not by letting them see a cheap flop with there trash hands(like Ace rag and sooted BS)..

[/ QUOTE ]

That's fine, but if they don't frequently obligingly fold for you, then you're preventing yourself from seeing a cheap flop with your own trash hand (like Ten rag and unsuited two-gapper BS).

I'd imagine you're able to bully the open-limper profitably, overall (and maybe in fact what happens is that when they do call what this frequently means is that you've built a pot for yourself that you'll often be able to steal with a flop c-bet), but I thought I'd point out that there is a potential downside to the play.

Sometimes being the table bully amounts to giving odds with the worst of it, in exchange for folding equity. And I've seen enough of this at the tables to realize that you'll often have enough folding equity to make it work.

The main reason I don't do this so much, actually, is that I'm not crazy about what it does to the table dynamic. I like loose-passive tables, when I can find them, but then when a TAG or TAG-wannabe or two shows up and decides to start punishing "fishy" preflop play, then it has a tendency to infest the way the table plays and the fishier players either leave (inevitably to be replaced by a tighter player who's attracted to the average pot size) or start playing more unpredictably.

And I guess, really, this post expresses my discouragement over how the micro-NL games have changed over the past 6 months. It seems that nowadays even at a limit as low as NL25 most players have some idea what they're doing or, if not, have still heard a few things and play more aggressively than the fishier players of the past.

[KEW]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I much prefer to punish open button limpers by raising not by letting them see a cheap flop with there trash hands(like Ace rag and sooted BS)..

[/ QUOTE ]

That's fine, but if they don't frequently obligingly fold for you, then you're preventing yourself from seeing a cheap flop with your own trash hand (like Ten rag and unsuited two-gapper BS).

I'd imagine you're able to bully the open-limper profitably, overall (and maybe in fact what happens is that when they do call what this frequently means is that you've built a pot for yourself that you'll often be able to steal with a flop c-bet), but I thought I'd point out that there is a potential downside to the play.

Sometimes being the table bully amounts to giving odds with the worst of it, in exchange for folding equity. And I've seen enough of this at the tables to realize that you'll often have enough folding equity to make it work.

The main reason I don't do this so much, actually, is that I'm not crazy about what it does to the table dynamic. I like loose-passive tables, when I can find them, but then when a TAG or TAG-wannabe or two shows up and decides to start punishing "fishy" preflop play, then it has a tendency to infest the way the table plays and the fishier players either leave (inevitably to be replaced by a tighter player who's attracted to the average pot size) or start playing more unpredictably.
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I was not clear about how often I will be raising in this situation...I will only be raising with the same range of hands I would from the button and CO...
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"And I guess, really, this post expresses my discouragement over how the micro-NL games have changed over the past 6 months. It seems that nowadays even at a limit as low as NL25 most players have some idea what they're doing or, if not, have still heard a few things and play more aggressively than the fishier players of the past."
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I totally agree with this statement...For the most part I missed the NL "glory days", did not switch to NL until August 2006..

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And I guess, really, this post expresses my discouragement over how the micro-NL games have changed over the past 6 months. It seems that nowadays even at a limit as low as NL25 most players have some idea what they're doing or, if not, have still heard a few things and play more aggressively than the fishier players of the past.

[/ QUOTE ]
I totally agree with this statement...For the most part I missed the NL "glory days", did not switch to NL until August 2006..

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I swithced over at about the same time, and then the ban came, and I cashed out, and I didn't redeposit until early this year. (And I redosited small at that.)

I was playing limit 5/10 6-max before switching, and when I decided to start with micro-NL (partly in response to my annoyance at Party's "Monster" table promotion, since NL100 and above was being overrun by Monster tables), it was almost a relief at first how fishy the play could be. But then, gradually, after I redeposited this year, the Stars micro-NL tables weren't so fishy, and I don't think this is just the result of my getting used to it. I think if I could somehow go back a year, I would once again be relieved at the fishiness of the tables.