nl50 big draw on the turn

[RainbowBright]

Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.25/$0.50 Blinds - 5 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh))

SB: $9.00
BB: $6.60
UTG: $44.60
CO: $57.30
Hero (BTN): $70.65

Preflop: Hero is dealt A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (5 Players)
UTG calls $0.50, CO calls $0.50, Hero calls $0.50, SB calls $0.25, BB checks

Flop: ($2.50) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif (5 Players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG bets $2.50, CO folds, Hero calls $2.50, 2 folds

Turn: ($7.50) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 Players)
UTG bets $4.00, Hero calls $4.00

River: ($15.50) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 Players)
UTG bets $3.00, Hero calls $3.00

Pot Size: $21.50 ($1 Rake)

[shoxbb6]

Raise preflop, I probably raise the flop. Otherwise, looks good.

[filsteal]

I'd raise the flop. But given that you called the flop, the rest is fine.

[Lego05]

Definitely raise pre-flop.

[Rollos]

Why does everyone want to raise the flop? I think that is a pretty big mistake.

[vixticator]

Definitely raise PF, re-raise this flop. As played I probably fold the river (nit?).

[Lego05]

[ QUOTE ]
Definitely raise PF, re-raise this flop. As played I probably fold the river (nit?).

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd say nit. Call the river getting 6 to 1.



BTW I'm not sure why everybody is advocating raising the flop..? It doesn't look so good to me.



Of course OP raise pre-flop and you don't have this problem.

[RainbowBright]

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Why does everyone want to raise the flop? I think that is a pretty big mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]

[RainbowBright]

Raising preflop is good. But playing a big multiway pot with a nut flush draw is also fine, imo. AJ is the cut off for me, I' m probably about 50/50 raise call given so many limpers. ATs I'd always just call.

[filsteal]

Actually, I somehow didn't even notice that this pot was multiway, probably because I'm hungry.

Yes, definitely just call the flop.

[Lego05]

[ QUOTE ]
Raising preflop is good. But playing a big multiway pot with a nut flush draw is also fine, imo. AJ is the cut off for me, I' m probably about 50/50 raise call given so many limpers. ATs I'd always just call.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's very bad IMO. Pre-flop I raise QTs here, 45s, JT offsuit, etc. Not raising AJ or AT is pretty bad.

[RainbowBright]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Raising preflop is good. But playing a big multiway pot with a nut flush draw is also fine, imo. AJ is the cut off for me, I' m probably about 50/50 raise call given so many limpers. ATs I'd always just call.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's very bad IMO. Pre-flop I raise QTs here, 45s, JT offsuit, etc. Not raising AJ or AT is pretty bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you explain why it's bad?

[Lego05]

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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Raising preflop is good. But playing a big multiway pot with a nut flush draw is also fine, imo. AJ is the cut off for me, I' m probably about 50/50 raise call given so many limpers. ATs I'd always just call.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's very bad IMO. Pre-flop I raise QTs here, 45s, JT offsuit, etc. Not raising AJ or AT is pretty bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you explain why it's bad?

[/ QUOTE ]

You're not using your button. You want to raise it up and a lot of the time you'll win it right there, if not then you can win with a c-bet. You want to take the initiative in the hand especially on the button. Hold on....I'm gonna get some links for you that I think can explain it better than I can.

[Rollos]

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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Raising preflop is good. But playing a big multiway pot with a nut flush draw is also fine, imo. AJ is the cut off for me, I' m probably about 50/50 raise call given so many limpers. ATs I'd always just call.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's very bad IMO. Pre-flop I raise QTs here, 45s, JT offsuit, etc. Not raising AJ or AT is pretty bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you explain why it's bad?

[/ QUOTE ]
It's simple. Since AJs is a +EV hand, then the more money you get in preflop, the more EV you gain.

[Lego05]

Ok basically you really wanna use your position. I raise like 25% or 26% of my hands on the button compared to ~10% or 11% UTG. Take a look through these links:


Pokey's Blind Stealing:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=ssplnlpoker&Number=534885 5


dbitel taking blind stealing to the next level:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Number=6073737

[RainbowBright]

[ QUOTE ]
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[ QUOTE ]
Raising preflop is good. But playing a big multiway pot with a nut flush draw is also fine, imo. AJ is the cut off for me, I' m probably about 50/50 raise call given so many limpers. ATs I'd always just call.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's very bad IMO. Pre-flop I raise QTs here, 45s, JT offsuit, etc. Not raising AJ or AT is pretty bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you explain why it's bad?

[/ QUOTE ]

You're not using your button. You want to raise it up and a lot of the time you'll win it right there, if not then you can win with a c-bet. You want to take the initiative in the hand especially on the button. Hold on....I'm gonna get some links for you that I think can explain it better than I can.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your argument works for any two cards and is not specific to AJs in particular.

The way I look at it is that I don't think many worse AX hands call my preflop raise. I want to have alot of players see the flop, so I can get a chance to stack them when I hit my hand big. I think an argument could be made for making a small raise to sweeten the pot preflop. And to give me some leway as the preflop aggressor.

[RainbowBright]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok basically you really wanna use your position. I raise like 25% or 26% of my hands on the button compared to ~10% or 11% UTG. Take a look through these links:


Pokey's Blind Stealing:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=ssplnlpoker&Number=534885 5


dbitel taking blind stealing to the next level:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Number=6073737

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand position. Maybe it would be better to limp if there were 3 limpers ahead of me instead of two. FWIW, I would raise if there was a single limper 100% of the time.

[vixticator]

[ QUOTE ]
The way I look at it is that I don't think many worse AX hands call my preflop raise. I want to have alot of players see the flop, so I can get a chance to stack them when I hit my hand big

[/ QUOTE ]Ew, no. First, it's not bad to win the pot PF. Of course Ax hands can/will call PF, you vastly overestimate your opponents. You have position and a huge hand. Raise it up, take it down with c-bet after flop. Not doing this is costing you TONS.

[RainbowBright]

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The way I look at it is that I don't think many worse AX hands call my preflop raise. I want to have alot of players see the flop, so I can get a chance to stack them when I hit my hand big

[/ QUOTE ]Ew, no. First, it's not bad to win the pot PF. Of course Ax hands can/will call PF, you vastly overestimate your opponents. You have position and a huge hand. Raise it up, take it down with c-bet after flop. Not doing this is costing you TONS.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you might be right about me over estimating the tightness of my opponents. Would you raise A2s in the same situation? And if not, at what point do you make the cut off?

[vixticator]

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Would you raise A2s in the same situation? And if not, at what point do you make the cut off?

[/ QUOTE ]I'd raise A2s sometimes, depends on table. My cut off would be based on table conditions... either way AJs is a no brainer raise.

[RainbowBright]

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[ QUOTE ]
Would you raise A2s in the same situation? And if not, at what point do you make the cut off?

[/ QUOTE ]I'd raise A2s sometimes, depends on table. My cut off would be based on table conditions... either way AJs is a no brainer raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think raising A2s is a leak in this situation. If you're raising A2s, then I think you should be raising any two cards.

What are you trying to accomplish by raising A2s with a bunch of limpers ahead of you?

[Rollos]

I suggest you play limit for awhile. After you get your premium hands outdrawn for the 6,394,509 time, you will gladly accept the opportunity to raise it.

[RainbowBright]

[ QUOTE ]
I suggest you play limit for awhile. After you get your premium hands outdrawn for the 6,394,509 time, you will gladly accept the opportunity to raise it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I said that I raise it 50% of the time, fwiw.

[vixticator]

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What are you trying to accomplish by raising A2s with a bunch of limpers ahead of you?

[/ QUOTE ]I didn't say I'm raising A2s every time, or most of the time, or 30%+ of the time. Sometimes. Just forget about A2s... AJs is WAY bigger, the gap is massive between the two hands...

If you limp with AJs I assume you limp with AKo too?

[RainbowBright]

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[ QUOTE ]
What are you trying to accomplish by raising A2s with a bunch of limpers ahead of you?

[/ QUOTE ]I didn't say I'm raising A2s every time, or most of the time, or 30%+ of the time. Sometimes. Just forget about A2s... AJs is WAY bigger, the gap is massive between the two hands...

If you limp with AJs I assume you limp with AKo too?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. AKo doesn't play well against multi-players. I said above thatI always limp ATs and always raise AQs.

[shoxbb6]

So much of this depends on the limpers. If the limpers are tight, im always raising a2s+,a8o+ pf.
If limpers are loose, raising prolly a9s+,a10o+.

[Wondercall]

[ QUOTE ]
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Raising preflop is good. But playing a big multiway pot with a nut flush draw is also fine, imo. AJ is the cut off for me, I' m probably about 50/50 raise call given so many limpers. ATs I'd always just call.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's very bad IMO. Pre-flop I raise QTs here, 45s, JT offsuit, etc. Not raising AJ or AT is pretty bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you explain why it's bad?

[/ QUOTE ]
It's simple. Since AJs is a +EV hand, then the more money you get in preflop, the more EV you gain.

[/ QUOTE ]

What kind of thinking is this? It seems like you are completely ignoring any kind of post flop skill. Yes, raising PF here is correct, but just because it is a +EV hand surely doesn't mean thats why it is correct.

[corsakh]

Is this "Should I rais AJs to a bunch of limpers OTB" discussion for real? I mean seriously, wth /images/graemlins/laugh.gif