kk bad turn

[jordiepop]

button is pretty loose but not ridiculous. is this qq. should i be afraid of the A
Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
6 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
UTG: $3.85
UTG+1: $25.35
Hero: $80.50
Button: $64.65
SB: $48.80
BB: $103.40

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is CO with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif K/images/graemlins/club.gif
<font color="#cc0000">UTG raises to $1.75</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $7.75</font>, Button calls, 2 folds, <font color="#cc0000">UTG calls all-in $2.1</font>, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif ($27.85, 3 players + 1 all-in - Main pot: $16.15, Sidepot 1: $11.7)
UTG+1 checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $14.5</font>, Button calls, UTG+1 folds.

Turn: A/images/graemlins/club.gif ($56.85, 2 players + 1 all-in - Main pot: $16.15, Sidepot 1: $40.7)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero ?

[C4LL4W4Y]

Bleh so so dirty. All that preflop action built up the pot and [censored] up what would have been an optimal bet/fold turn. I guess you can bet 25-30 and fold to the shove, because if you do get shipped you're drawing to 2 outs, but I don't like it much.

FWIW I probably bet a little more on the flop, maybe ~17.

[jordiepop]

lol i run retarted for 2 days than face this [censored] non stop

[Knuckles]

That is an ugly card on the turn. It turns AQ into two pair and in general it may be enough to cost you the main pot to the short stack. At this point I would probably c/f. I don't think your ahead here enough.

[jordiepop]

i agree its just so fn dirty

[orange]

Not really a horrendous turn. I guess AQ just did improve. But the majority of his range shouldnt really include an Ace, other than AQ. If thats solely the range you put him on, blah.

Otherwise, either c/c the turn or just bet/call. And I agree with a larger flop bet. Allows you to put the money in easier.

[Knuckles]

Since my hard reading skills are in dire need of improvement, what is a more appropriate range for him here?

[C4LL4W4Y]

Yeah more I think about it I hate b/f. What amount do you lead?

[orange]

After button cold calls PF, I would put his range somewhere on like 88+, AK/AQ/AJs, KQs,KJs,KTs (maybe), sometimes other ridiculous [censored] sprinkled in.

After he calls flop, I would probably put him at stuff like Qx, 99+.

[C4LL4W4Y]

77+, some broadway combos probably, more weighted towards TT+ and broadway combos with a Q after the flop.

[Yaboosh]

Orange, that is exactly why betting this turn is bad. The A is a scare card and betting it will fold out too many worse hands that MAY bluff at it themselves when checked to. Since any bet is committing, I think you have to let him do the committing.

[orange]

When you start thinking on higher levels and your opponents start thinking on higher levels (ie. as you move up in stakes), this is a decent card to bluff in rr-ed pots (the ace). Not so much in this specific circumstance (given the weirdness of this hand), but just something to think about.

Given you are checking here with KK, are you also checking here with a hand like AK? or AQ? Something to think about.

Also, yeah, I would typically check here and see what he does. Though bet/calling isnt horrible I wouldnt think. Pot is too large and stacks too shallow to do much else.

[Yaboosh]

But think what the opponent may be thinking. Like you said, his range is high Q's and medium pocket pairs. Pocket pairs presumably call the flop because they assume you must have AK and thus you missed this flop. The turn hits the A, and suddenly, they are confronted with the fact that they are probably beaten. So when we bet the A, we are pretty much turning our hand into a bluff since the medium pocket pairs are almost certainly not folding and ANYTHING we beat is probably not calling. They MAY bet stuff we beat, so that makes this (in my mind) a clear check. Our hand DEFINITELY still has value, but I think betting the turn robs our hand of most of that value.

[orange]

Checking this turn is fine, I have no gripes with it. But this is such a weird spot (given the size of the pot/stack sizes) that I really don't think it matters what you do- I also disagree with the worse hands not calling part, I think a Q will stick around the majority of the time and 88/99 will probably fold (though I doubt they would call a river bet anyway).