25NL: Made the right move??

[Beesnuts]

Tell me what you think of everything...probs should have raised more PF, but in this case, I dont think it would've helped...definitley should have bet more on flop...anyway...


Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.10/$0.25 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh))

Hero (SB): $25.60
BB: $24.65
UTG: $29.95
MP: $23.30
CO: $24.25
BTN: $25.85

Preflop: Hero is dealt T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif T/images/graemlins/spade.gif (6 Players)
UTG folds, <font color="red">MP raises to $0.50</font>, CO calls $0.50, BTN calls $0.50, <font color="red">Hero raises to $2.50</font>, BB folds, MP calls $2.00, CO calls $2.00, BTN folds

Flop: ($8.25) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif 7/images/graemlins/club.gif 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $4.50</font>, <font color="red">MP raises all-in to $20.80</font>, 2 folds
Uncalled bet of $16.30 returned to MP

Pot Size: $17.25 ($0.85 Rake)

[andrew484]

It's nearly impossible to know what to do here without reads. It just comes down to basic math and EV. The way I figure it, it costs $16.30 to call and the pot is $33.55 so an EV-neutral equity is 32.70%. Do you think you're ahead that much? I think it's close, but I would tend to fold these spots.

[mirrorman]

Obv bet more on the flop, but I think there's a good chance that because you bet so little your opponent thought he could take it down by pushing with 2overs and clubs.. I'm saying call.

[andrew484]

Also, I would be much more inclined to call here with a hand like A9, even though it's weaker. That way should you run into something bad like 2-pair or a slow-played overpair, you have a lot more chance to catch up. With TT, if you call and end up being behind, you have only 2 outs and have very little chance. But with a hand like A9, you would potentially have 5 outs and that gives you enough extra equity to make this spot much more +EV.

[Beesnuts]

[ QUOTE ]
Obv bet more on the flop, but I think there's a good chance that because you bet so little your opponent thought he could take it down by pushing with 2overs and clubs.. I'm saying call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do I really wanna take that spot even if I knew that what he had? If I knew he had KQcc or something like that, I dont think I'd call

[jk1986]

I don't think you can fold here, given the drawy nature of the board and the pot odds offered. Especially since theres always a chance he just has TP, and you are still live against 2pair.. high variance call though. FWIW I would bet more on this flop and just commit.

[mirrorman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Obv bet more on the flop, but I think there's a good chance that because you bet so little your opponent thought he could take it down by pushing with 2overs and clubs.. I'm saying call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do I really wanna take that spot even if I knew that what he had? If I knew he had KQcc or something like that, I dont think I'd call

[/ QUOTE ]


That's absurd.

If his cards were face up on the flop as QKcc, I call 100% of the time, and trust me, you should too.

[jk1986]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Obv bet more on the flop, but I think there's a good chance that because you bet so little your opponent thought he could take it down by pushing with 2overs and clubs.. I'm saying call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do I really wanna take that spot even if I knew that what he had? If I knew he had KQcc or something like that, I dont think I'd call

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats a pretty rediculous statement. I can see folding in the actual hand, but if you knew the villain had KQs, then you're just worse than a coinflip, and with the pot odds offered, calling would be &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; +ev than folding obv.

[Beesnuts]

yeah, his PF play really confused me...I feel like its just how a fish would play AA/KK

[Beesnuts]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Obv bet more on the flop, but I think there's a good chance that because you bet so little your opponent thought he could take it down by pushing with 2overs and clubs.. I'm saying call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do I really wanna take that spot even if I knew that what he had? If I knew he had KQcc or something like that, I dont think I'd call

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats a pretty rediculous statement. I can see folding in the actual hand, but if you knew the villain had KQs, then you're just worse than a coinflip, and with the pot odds offered, calling would be &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; +ev than folding obv.

[/ QUOTE ]

The only reason I say that is because Im not on a huge BR right now so I am not trying to get into high variance situations. Is this still bad thinking?

[vixticator]

[ QUOTE ]
The only reason I say that is because Im not on a huge BR right now so I am not trying to get into high variance situations. Is this still bad thinking?

[/ QUOTE ]I would move down if BR affected my play whatsoever... but I'm a **HUGE** BR nit.

[Beesnuts]

how many buy-ins are you sitting at your current stakes with?

[jk1986]

[ QUOTE ]
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[ QUOTE ]
Obv bet more on the flop, but I think there's a good chance that because you bet so little your opponent thought he could take it down by pushing with 2overs and clubs.. I'm saying call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do I really wanna take that spot even if I knew that what he had? If I knew he had KQcc or something like that, I dont think I'd call

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats a pretty rediculous statement. I can see folding in the actual hand, but if you knew the villain had KQs, then you're just worse than a coinflip, and with the pot odds offered, calling would be &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; +ev than folding obv.

[/ QUOTE ]

The only reason I say that is because Im not on a huge BR right now so I am not trying to get into high variance situations. Is this still bad thinking?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think its necessarily bad to want to avoid major variance. If your BR is short then you should take the hit and move down so that your BR is comfortable. If you want to reduce your variance, then the best way to do it is to simply tighten up and play more TAG. Where a LAG player will raise a marginal in mid late position, a TAG would just fold, lets say playing this hand is about neutral EV, which some hands will be, by playing the hand the LAG is increasing variance, but in terms of metagame hes creating a looser image that will get him action on his bigger hands, and loosen up the other players eventually and create some action. But as a TAG you still have to push those draws etc and make high variance plays to maximise your winrate. Although in general the tighter you are the less variance you will experience. You could also avoid some high variance plays that will likely be neutral EV. HOWEVER... folding if you knew he had KQs would be terrible, simply because calling is &gt;&gt;&gt; +ev than folding. You could fold if there was only a slight difference in EV between calling and folding. Hope that helps.

[vixticator]

[ QUOTE ]
how many buy-ins are you sitting at your current stakes with?

[/ QUOTE ]I have $400 BR and play .02/.05, lol.

[Beesnuts]

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[ QUOTE ]
how many buy-ins are you sitting at your current stakes with?

[/ QUOTE ]I have $400 BR and play .02/.05, lol.

[/ QUOTE ]

Um....excuse me.....can you say that one more time /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[Beesnuts]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think its necessarily bad to want to avoid major variance. If your BR is short then you should take the hit and move down so that your BR is comfortable. If you want to reduce your variance, then the best way to do it is to simply tighten up and play more TAG. Where a LAG player will raise a marginal in mid late position, a TAG would just fold, lets say playing this hand is about neutral EV, which some hands will be, by playing the hand the LAG is increasing variance, but in terms of metagame hes creating a looser image that will get him action on his bigger hands, and loosen up the other players eventually and create some action. But as a TAG you still have to push those draws etc and make high variance plays to maximise your winrate. Although in general the tighter you are the less variance you will experience. You could also avoid some high variance plays that will likely be neutral EV. HOWEVER... folding if you knew he had KQs would be terrible, simply because calling is &gt;&gt;&gt; +ev than folding. You could fold if there was only a slight difference in EV between calling and folding. Hope that helps.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, that helped a ton, thank you! I feel I can beat 25NL proficiently, I'm beating it for 5BB/100 over ~15K hands I know it's not a lot of hands). What I should do is just deposit until I have 20BI and just go from there...good idea?

[jk1986]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't think its necessarily bad to want to avoid major variance. If your BR is short then you should take the hit and move down so that your BR is comfortable. If you want to reduce your variance, then the best way to do it is to simply tighten up and play more TAG. Where a LAG player will raise a marginal in mid late position, a TAG would just fold, lets say playing this hand is about neutral EV, which some hands will be, by playing the hand the LAG is increasing variance, but in terms of metagame hes creating a looser image that will get him action on his bigger hands, and loosen up the other players eventually and create some action. But as a TAG you still have to push those draws etc and make high variance plays to maximise your winrate. Although in general the tighter you are the less variance you will experience. You could also avoid some high variance plays that will likely be neutral EV. HOWEVER... folding if you knew he had KQs would be terrible, simply because calling is &gt;&gt;&gt; +ev than folding. You could fold if there was only a slight difference in EV between calling and folding. Hope that helps.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, that helped a ton, thank you! I feel I can beat 25NL proficiently, I'm beating it for 5BB/100 over ~15K hands I know it's not a lot of hands). What I should do is just deposit until I have 20BI and just go from there...good idea?

[/ QUOTE ]
If you are willing to deposit more then playing nl25 underrolled is fine, since you are effectively rolled for it. I take shots at 15 buyins and stay up with 20+ ish, I don't withdraw/deposit to my BR as of the last few months since I realised that withdrawing makes breaking out of the micros impossible.

[mirrorman]

20 BI is the ideal amount to have for a bankroll, but it's not set in stone that you must have that many to play at a certain limit- especially 25NL. I think at any of the micro-limits 15 and maybe for a good player 10 BI's should be fine to build a more sufficient roll on.

[Beesnuts]

So when do you think its a good idea to start withdrawing? The problem I see with it is that the money I would want to cash out now is so minimal and just destroys my BR. I want to wait till I have a sum that is big enough to be useful outside of poker while not lightening my BR too much.

[jk1986]

Thats the point, set yourself a level that you aim to reach, and then once you're there you can withdraw, well thats the idea I guess!