50NL; AQ in 3bet pot flops TPTK

[Lego05]

This hand's from a coaching session. It was IMO the most interesting hand from the session so I wanted to see what 2p2 thought?

Villian is 22.03/13.56/1.29



PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

UTG ($25.60)
MP ($50.25)
Button ($54.45)
Hero ($76.55)
BB ($49.80)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls $0.50, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises to $2.5</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $8</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG folds, MP calls $5.50.

Flop: ($17) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $12</font>, MP calls $12.

Turn: ($41) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP bets $15</font>, Hero ???

[SykoraG]

Definately looking at Aces or Kings or a set here. I give up especially with his low aggro.

[mirrorman]

[ QUOTE ]
Definately looking at Aces or Kings or a set here. I give up especially with his low aggro.

[/ QUOTE ]

[creamfillin]

I would fold this PF. Nit.. I know

[Lego05]

[ QUOTE ]
I would fold this PF. Nit.. I know

[/ QUOTE ]

Seriously?

[dueceman]

the UTG limps and MP raises.. with the UTG still to act,regardless of what you do... this to me has become an easy fold for me over time..you are gonna be out of position with a possible two players behind you..and now that you've raised it to 8 what if the UTG calls with a big pair..or if you get reraised PF by MP..? its just a spot that you can avoid easily and really wont lose much in profitability..

[shoxbb6]

wtf @ folding preflop. mp can be raising raising pf, utg fold in this situation 99% of the time if hero 3bets.
I bet less on the flop, usually like 10.
Turn is an interesting spot, really dependent on whether villain is capable of floating something like 1010/JJ/AK.
To me, the turn looks like a weak steal attempt. I'd call and probably c/f river ui.

[Lego05]

[ QUOTE ]
wtf @ folding preflop. mp can be raising raising pf, utg fold in this situation 99% of the time if hero 3bets.
I bet less on the flop, usually like 10.
Turn is an interesting spot, really dependent on whether villain is capable of floating something like 1010/JJ/AK.
To me, the turn looks like a weak steal attempt. I'd call and probably c/f river ui.

[/ QUOTE ]


You realize if we call MP only has $15 left in a $71 pot. Can we really check fold at that point getting almost 6 to 1?

[dueceman]

ok then..so you dont fold Pf..so you are playing this as you've got top pair and best kicker..and the MP is beat.why slowdown ever on the turn? at that point MP has 30 left..put him all in ..i know your check wasnt to induce him to bet so you could put him all in..why not put him to the test.? you are this deep in the hand and his bet of 15 tells you nothing cause you checked..he could be thinkin youve got AK, and is taking a shot cause you checked..

[shoxbb6]

[ QUOTE ]


You realize if we call MP only has $15 left in a $71 pot. Can we really check fold at that point getting almost 6 to 1?

[/ QUOTE ]
I think we can, no way is villain ever pushing anything we beat on the river with those stats.

[Lego05]

I slow down on flop cause IMO there's like no hand I beat that will call a double barrel on turn.



What do people think about checking this flop?

[orange]

Call and see what he does on the river. I'm not ready to give up TPTK in a rr-ed pot quite yet.

[DannyOcean_]

I think checking this flop is fine, and actually may be the best line.

We have a Tight player who is unlikely to put in lots of money while behind if we keep firing at him. We also have a 3bet pot and a fairly strong hand. I think a c/r all in on this flop may be this best line. A pot sized c/r is enough to put us all in, and villian will fire at us with tons of hands.

Even semi-passive villians love to attack weakness in 3bet pots. I think a flop check is actually really good here.

[Lego05]

[ QUOTE ]
Call and see what he does on the river. I'm not ready to give up TPTK in a rr-ed pot quite yet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have to act before him on river and the pot will be huge ($71) compared to stacks ($15). How would you play that if hero calls turn?


And, Orange, what do you think about checking flop?

[Sotiria]

[ QUOTE ]
ok then..so you dont fold Pf..so you are playing this as you've got top pair and best kicker..and the MP is beat.why slowdown ever on the turn? at that point MP has 30 left..put him all in ..i know your check wasnt to induce him to bet so you could put him all in..why not put him to the test.? you are this deep in the hand and his bet of 15 tells you nothing cause you checked..he could be thinkin youve got AK, and is taking a shot cause you checked..

[/ QUOTE ]

What exactly does "put him to the test" mean? What hands call an effectively open push on the turn that hero can beat?

To OP, your check, though necessary, looks particularly weak....had you been c-betting a lot of flops...is it possible villain saw this as a failed c-bet attempt on your part?

[orange]

Don't really like a flop check. It's okay vs. some opponents, but I would rather have some sort of read on his postflop play (ie. if he's super aggro or whatever) before doing it.

I think there is still decent value on a flop bet.

Also, I didnt realize stacks. This is indeed a push or fold situation, and I usually just say F it and shove.

[Sotiria]

[ QUOTE ]
I think checking this flop is fine, and actually may be the best line.

We have a Tight player who is unlikely to put in lots of money while behind if we keep firing at him. We also have a 3bet pot and a fairly strong hand. I think a c/r all in on this flop may be this best line. A pot sized c/r is enough to put us all in, and villian will fire at us with tons of hands.

Even semi-passive villians love to attack weakness in 3bet pots. I think a flop check is actually really good here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. It's like when you're in a 3-bet pot with aces or kings and the board pairs on the flop. Checking, almost without fail, makes lower pairs or AK think they're good.

[Lego05]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
ok then..so you dont fold Pf..so you are playing this as you've got top pair and best kicker..and the MP is beat.why slowdown ever on the turn? at that point MP has 30 left..put him all in ..i know your check wasnt to induce him to bet so you could put him all in..why not put him to the test.? you are this deep in the hand and his bet of 15 tells you nothing cause you checked..he could be thinkin youve got AK, and is taking a shot cause you checked..

[/ QUOTE ]

What exactly does "put him to the test" mean? What hands call an effectively open push on the turn that hero can beat?

To OP, your check, though necessary, looks particularly weak....had you been c-betting a lot of flops...is it possible villain saw this as a failed c-bet attempt on your part?

[/ QUOTE ]


Ah this hand was yesterday and I've played like 7500 hands since this one so I don't really remember. However, I do c-bet a lot of flops. Not really sure exactly how much that matters in a 3bet pot here though.

[justhetip]

What does our hand look like to him? If he has aces here, mightn't he also check to induce a bluff on the river? I think we can narrow it down to kings, looking to protect his hand and promote value, or AK, AQ, JJ,1010,99, with QQ being very unlikely.
In my opinion, on thinking about this hand, I say we push, or just call to maybe entice a river bluff from most of his range.
Hmm, maybe I'm thinking about this too much?

[DannyOcean_]

orange,

my reason for a flop check is that it seems opponent ratchet up their aggressiveness, or 'spunk', or fiestyness in reraised pots. You almost never see these checked through, and i think if we check flop we are getting bet at very large % of the time. A pot sized raise is all in, and i like the spot that puts me in. Gets some value out of weaker hands, and by the discussion here it looks like we are getting it in almost regardless, so i like the c/r flop. Let him bet out his somewhat strong hand.

[orange]

Danny,
checking this flop is okay vs. certain opponents, but I would rather have seen opponent be aggressive in previous pots before making this check. c/r ai is a decent play vs. aggressive opponents.