Another faith healing/hypnosis/placebo post

[Taraz]

I just listened to a Radiolab (NPR) program about the placebo effect. You can download the podcast here: Click on the May 18th program. (http://www.wnyc.org/shows/radiolab/upcoming.html) It had a lot of interesting nuggets. Whatever you want to call the effect, it is very real long as the patient believes in it.

The last 10 minutes of the program dealt with faith healings. It was interesting that when symptoms returned, one previously "healed" Christian woman claimed that the reason was the Devil. The beginning of the program also had a bit about a native american shaman's tricks and how they took advantage of the placebo effect.

I'm not sure what kind of comments I'm looking for, but it's an interesting listen if you have a spare hour or so. It seemed appropriate since we discussed this issue a short while back.

[vhawk01]

Bookmarked, thanks.

[samsonite2100]

W/out having listened to it, I wonder if the placebo effect works if you kind of know that something is bs. For example, I take echinacea whenever I'm feeling run down or am worried about getting sick. I know that there aren't any studies that support taking echinacea, and yet taking it does make me feel better, if only to create the illusion that I'm taking an active role in my well-being. Maybe I'm just stupid.

Anyway, thanks for the link--will listen.

[Metric]

Yeah, I get slightly paranoid on airplane flights breathing recycled air and hearing people cough, sneeze, etc. all around me for hours. So I sometimes take that "airborne" stuff -- basically a big dose of vitamin C and some other herbal crap, as I recall. I figure it certainly can't hurt, though I have no idea if it actually has any significant effect on one's vunerability to disease. Like you, though, it does make me feel somewhat better for having attempted something, rather than to just sit there and suck it in with a stupid grin on my face.

[Taraz]

[ QUOTE ]
W/out having listened to it, I wonder if the placebo effect works if you kind of know that something is bs. For example, I take echinacea whenever I'm feeling run down or am worried about getting sick. I know that there aren't any studies that support taking echinacea, and yet taking it does make me feel better, if only to create the illusion that I'm taking an active role in my well-being. Maybe I'm just stupid.

Anyway, thanks for the link--will listen.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can tell you the following for sure:

-If you believe something works, it will work better.
-If you believe something doesn't work, it will work worse.

It's hard to tell what's going on when you play a crazy mind game with yourself. "I know this is probably a placebo kind of thing, but maybe the placebo effect will work even if I know it's fake . . . but if I know it's fake then what is actually working . . . maybe this is a magic pill!!!! . . . maybe not . . ."

For the record, I do this to myself all the time.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
W/out having listened to it, I wonder if the placebo effect works if you kind of know that something is bs. For example, I take echinacea whenever I'm feeling run down or am worried about getting sick. I know that there aren't any studies that support taking echinacea, and yet taking it does make me feel better, if only to create the illusion that I'm taking an active role in my well-being. Maybe I'm just stupid.

Anyway, thanks for the link--will listen.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can tell you the following for sure:

-If you believe something works, it will work better.
-If you believe something doesn't work, it will work worse.

It's hard to tell what's going on when you play a crazy mind game with yourself. "I know this is probably a placebo kind of thing, but maybe the placebo effect will work even if I know it's fake . . . but if I know it's fake then what is actually working . . . maybe this is a magic pill!!!! . . . maybe not . . ."

For the record, I do this to myself all the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, just to offer a potential explanation for some of this. When you are stressed, you immediately release adrenaline and noradrenaline, but if you are more chronically stressed your cortisol levels go up. This has a wide range of negative health effects, such as central obesity. Importantly, cortisol is damaging to your immune system. Extended elevated cortisol levels can severely compromise your immune system over time. People who are habitually stressed have much higher levels of disease, recover more slowly, and have more long-term health problems. So, anything you can do to lower your overall stress levels could easily have a positive effect on your overall immune system.

This to me seems like a realistic mechanism for the action of meditation, placebo, religious healing; basically the whole set of 'crap vhawk generally thinks is entirely bogus.'

EDIT: Figured I'd do a quick Pubmed search to see if I was just making stuff up, and found this, might be interesting:

Reverse Placebo (Nocebo) Effect (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=1 7108175&ordinalpos=2&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.P ubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum)

They implicate the exact opposite of what I was explaining in their 'nocebo' effect, i.e. the ELEVATION of the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis and elevation of cortisol.

[Taraz]

[ QUOTE ]

Well, just to offer a potential explanation for some of this. When you are stressed, you immediately release adrenaline and noradrenaline, but if you are more chronically stressed your cortisol levels go up. This has a wide range of negative health effects, such as central obesity. Importantly, cortisol is damaging to your immune system. Extended elevated cortisol levels can severely compromise your immune system over time. People who are habitually stressed have much higher levels of disease, recover more slowly, and have more long-term health problems. So, anything you can do to lower your overall stress levels could easily have a positive effect on your overall immune system.

This to me seems like a realistic mechanism for the action of meditation, placebo, religious healing; basically the whole set of 'crap vhawk generally thinks is entirely bogus.'

EDIT: Figured I'd do a quick Pubmed search to see if I was just making stuff up, and found this, might be interesting:

Reverse Placebo (Nocebo) Effect (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=1 7108175&ordinalpos=2&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.P ubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum)

They implicate the exact opposite of what I was explaining in their 'nocebo' effect, i.e. the ELEVATION of the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis and elevation of cortisol.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the info. Reminds me of all the lectures by Robert Sapolsky about how stress negatively affects us biologically. Real cool stuff. For those of you who like to listen to lectures and watch videos, he gives a great lecture here: link. (http://channeln.blogspot.com/2006/11/stress-related-neurodegeneration.html)

He was probably the best lecturer I had in college, so it's well worth the listen/watch if you have time.

Also LOL at the name "nocebo effect". That's good stuff.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Well, just to offer a potential explanation for some of this. When you are stressed, you immediately release adrenaline and noradrenaline, but if you are more chronically stressed your cortisol levels go up. This has a wide range of negative health effects, such as central obesity. Importantly, cortisol is damaging to your immune system. Extended elevated cortisol levels can severely compromise your immune system over time. People who are habitually stressed have much higher levels of disease, recover more slowly, and have more long-term health problems. So, anything you can do to lower your overall stress levels could easily have a positive effect on your overall immune system.

This to me seems like a realistic mechanism for the action of meditation, placebo, religious healing; basically the whole set of 'crap vhawk generally thinks is entirely bogus.'

EDIT: Figured I'd do a quick Pubmed search to see if I was just making stuff up, and found this, might be interesting:

Reverse Placebo (Nocebo) Effect (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=1 7108175&ordinalpos=2&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.P ubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum)

They implicate the exact opposite of what I was explaining in their 'nocebo' effect, i.e. the ELEVATION of the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis and elevation of cortisol.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the info. Reminds me of all the lectures by Robert Sapolsky about how stress negatively affects us biologically. Real cool stuff. For those of you who like to listen to lectures and watch videos, he gives a great lecture here: link. (http://channeln.blogspot.com/2006/11/stress-related-neurodegeneration.html)

He was probably the best lecturer I had in college, so it's well worth the listen/watch if you have time.

Also LOL at the name "nocebo effect". That's good stuff.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the prefix is noci- meaning pain, rather than no-, but yeah, still funny.

[Taraz]

[ QUOTE ]

I think the prefix is noci- meaning pain, rather than no-, but yeah, still funny.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't know that. Now it's kind of funnier . . .