Racism?

[Xylem]

I live in london and i am an ethnic minority.

I see 'racism' nearly everyday through songs through social interaction and discrimination.

The surprising thing is that im white.

I hate the fact that im an etnic minority. Whenever i see a school playground or children i play spot the white man and unless i need glasses id say that my area has been saturated by non native peoples.

Am i wrong to hate this situation?
Is this rascist?

[Taraz]

[ QUOTE ]

Am i wrong to hate this situation?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think that you can really be "wrong" in how you feel. Maybe it would help if you figured out why you hate the situation.

[ QUOTE ]

Is this rascist?

[/ QUOTE ]

Is it racist to feel uncomfortable when you're in the minority? Not really. Maybe you just don't know how to relate to people of other ethnicities.

You haven't really explained any of your thoughts or actions, so it's hard to say whether you are racist/prejudiced. Do you actively avoid people of a different race? If so, why?

[ledders07]

lol, u live in wembley or newham?

[kerowo]

Probably a little racist if you don't like the people around you just because they are different than you. As long as you don't start treating people poorly because they are different than you it's not a problem.

[Hopey]

It sounds like you have a big chip on your shoulder.

[Metric]

Do you believe that simply belonging to one race makes you inherently superior to those belonging to another race? If so, you're a racist. If not, you're not a racist, though it has become popular for people to call you a racist for noting certain un-PC facts of life, or for wanting to be around others of your own race (as appears to be your situation).

[chezlaw]

I've lived in london my whole life, moved house a few years ago and for the first time all my neighbours are white, I don't like this very much though I like my house.

Does that me racist?

chez

[SNOWBALL]

[ QUOTE ]

Probably a little racist if you don't like the people around you just because they are different than you. As long as you don't start treating people poorly because they are different than you it's not a problem.



[/ QUOTE ]

what's wrong with treating other people poorly because they are different than me? As long as I don't use violence, I don't see why that is anyone's business but my own. I prefer to associate with people similar to myself. That's a rational choice common to many other humans I believe, because we are social animals, and it's not possible to have a kinship with 100% of humanity. If it was, then I'd be all for it.

For good or for bad, humans appear to be evolved to live in fairly small communities. Within these communities, we cooperate and feel powerful solidarity/empathy. Outside of them, we are inclined towards varying degrees of indifference/apathy.

What bothers you more? When your child has a fever, or when 20k people starve to death every single day? I'm personally much more concerned with the fate and wellbeing of my family and friends, than I am with people outside of my monkeysphere (http://www.pointlesswasteoftime.com/monkeysphere.html).

Of course, there are ways to get inside of my good graces. For example, when 2p2 was a smaller community, I felt more concerned for the wellbeing of fellow posters. To some extent, I still do. For example, when I hear about a 2p2er going deep into a major tournament, I will often root for him. I was also very happy when aba took farha for a bunch of money. It's because I feel something in common with them, that my mind places them inside my "monkeysphere" or whatever.

I don't do this on a racial basis, but if I did, I don't think that's any less arbitrary than other means. Racial favoritism is equally superficial to feeling more conerned about the wellbeing of a fellow 2p2er than I do about the wellbeing of a random american, but it still persists, and there aren't any protests, laws, or condemnation to discourage me.

The affect is the same. Kinship, whether on the basis of race, family-ties, political affiliation, etc. sometimes has violent and abhorrent effects. However, racial kinship is often singled out as being the sole culprit in leading to atrocities and oppression. This viewpoint overlooks at least 2 important points:

1. Ethnic/racial kinship often does not have violent or destructive implications

2. Other forms of kinship sometimes have similarly terrible consequences

I think society is entirely too concerned with racial prejudice, and not concerned enough the the means by which this prejudice becomes pernicious: namely the centralization of power and wealth. If we lived in a more politically decentralized and economically egalitarian world it simply would not matter who hated who.
My neighbors hatred for me is pretty irrelevant. My landlord's hatred for me, or a police officer's hatred for me matters A LOT.

Similarly, it really doesn't matter to racially priveledged people if the racial underclass hates them, because it's not like they can do anything about it anyway. Therefore, I think it can be argued that white racism is more cataclysmic than black racism against whites. Whites own more businesses so we can discriminate, and they can't (as much).

[vhawk01]

Just because you are free to do it, doesn't mean it isn't racism.

"Whats wrong with treating people poorly because they are different from me?"

As long as the difference in question is race, then its racism. You can argue about whether its wrong or not, or whether it should be allowed or not, but none of that has anything to do with whether its racism or not. It is.

[SNOWBALL]

[ QUOTE ]
As long as the difference in question is race, then its racism. You can argue about whether its wrong or not, or whether it should be allowed or not, but none of that has anything to do with whether its racism or not. It is.


[/ QUOTE ]

Well I guess I'm not a racist, but I'm probably a 2p2ist though!

edit: btw, you're in my monkeysphere /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As long as the difference in question is race, then its racism. You can argue about whether its wrong or not, or whether it should be allowed or not, but none of that has anything to do with whether its racism or not. It is.


[/ QUOTE ]

Well I guess I'm not a racist, but I'm probably a 2p2ist though!

edit: btw, you're in my monkeysphere /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand what you were trying to say in your post above, that racism is just as arbitrary and stupid as a lot of our preferences, but its not EXACTLY correct. It isn't arbitrary, and some seemingly stupid preferences are less arbitrary than others. It makes some sense to prefer those who are like you, because those who are like you are both more likely to carry your genes (although it seems like this is the only point I've made in any thread for like the last month so I'll shut up about it for a while) AND they are more likely to want to help you out in the future. Making sure they are happy and healthy means they will be around in the future to help you out.

The simplest problem (although perhaps not the most fundamental) is that racism and many other preferential strategies are just really, really bad strategies. Sure, without ANY other information, its probably best to be nicest to the person who is most like you. The problem is, the amount of information you can get for an extremely minimal investment of time and effort is EXTREMELY valuable. So, there are almost never (and I honestly can't think of a single one) where judging based on race is really a good idea. I guess in some contrived scenario where it is stipulated that it is IMPOSSIBLE to get any other type of information except for race and only race, then its fine. But in any real world situation, its just a really bad approach.

However, if enough people are doing it, you only need to outcompete the other idiots, so it isn't PROHIBITVELY stupid.

[kerowo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Probably a little racist if you don't like the people around you just because they are different than you. As long as you don't start treating people poorly because they are different than you it's not a problem.



[/ QUOTE ]

what's wrong with treating other people poorly because they are different than me? As long as I don't use violence, I don't see why that is anyone's business but my own. I prefer to associate with people similar to myself. That's a rational choice common to many other humans I believe, because we are social animals, and it's not possible to have a kinship with 100% of humanity. If it was, then I'd be all for it.

For good or for bad, humans appear to be evolved to live in fairly small communities. Within these communities, we cooperate and feel powerful solidarity/empathy. Outside of them, we are inclined towards varying degrees of indifference/apathy.

What bothers you more? When your child has a fever, or when 20k people starve to death every single day? I'm personally much more concerned with the fate and wellbeing of my family and friends, than I am with people outside of my monkeysphere (http://www.pointlesswasteoftime.com/monkeysphere.html).

Of course, there are ways to get inside of my good graces. For example, when 2p2 was a smaller community, I felt more concerned for the wellbeing of fellow posters. To some extent, I still do. For example, when I hear about a 2p2er going deep into a major tournament, I will often root for him. I was also very happy when aba took farha for a bunch of money. It's because I feel something in common with them, that my mind places them inside my "monkeysphere" or whatever.

I don't do this on a racial basis, but if I did, I don't think that's any less arbitrary than other means. Racial favoritism is equally superficial to feeling more conerned about the wellbeing of a fellow 2p2er than I do about the wellbeing of a random american, but it still persists, and there aren't any protests, laws, or condemnation to discourage me.

The affect is the same. Kinship, whether on the basis of race, family-ties, political affiliation, etc. sometimes has violent and abhorrent effects. However, racial kinship is often singled out as being the sole culprit in leading to atrocities and oppression. This viewpoint overlooks at least 2 important points:

1. Ethnic/racial kinship often does not have violent or destructive implications

2. Other forms of kinship sometimes have similarly terrible consequences

I think society is entirely too concerned with racial prejudice, and not concerned enough the the means by which this prejudice becomes pernicious: namely the centralization of power and wealth. If we lived in a more politically decentralized and economically egalitarian world it simply would not matter who hated who.
My neighbors hatred for me is pretty irrelevant. My landlord's hatred for me, or a police officer's hatred for me matters A LOT.

Similarly, it really doesn't matter to racially priveledged people if the racial underclass hates them, because it's not like they can do anything about it anyway. Therefore, I think it can be argued that white racism is more cataclysmic than black racism against whites. Whites own more businesses so we can discriminate, and they can't (as much).



[/ QUOTE ]

tl;dr past the first para, basically because it makes you look like a penis when you discriminate based on race.

[SNOWBALL]

[ QUOTE ]


tl;dr past the first para, basically because it makes you look like a penis when you discriminate based on race.



[/ QUOTE ]

what if:

1. you're in jail and have to decide where to sit in the cafeteria? Do you survey everyone on what their musical taste/political views/moral character is and then make your decision?

2. you have a choice between living in a poor neighborhood infested by gangs of your race or a poor neighborhood infested by gangs of a different race

Do you flip a coin to avoid being prejudiced?

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


tl;dr past the first para, basically because it makes you look like a penis when you discriminate based on race.



[/ QUOTE ]

what if:

1. you're in jail and have to decide where to sit in the cafeteria? Do you survey everyone on what their musical taste/political views/moral character is and then make your decision?

2. you have a choice between living in a poor neighborhood infested by gangs of your race or a poor neighborhood infested by gangs of a different race

Do you flip a coin to avoid being prejudiced?

[/ QUOTE ]

I find out if gangs full of a different race are much more likely to beat my ass. If they are, I discriminate based on likelihood to beat my ass.

Just because you don't need to do a formal survey to get extra information doesn't mean you can't get extra information.

[luckyme]

[ QUOTE ]
It makes some sense to prefer those who are like you, because those who are like you are both more likely to carry your genes (although it seems like this is the only point I've made in any thread for like the last month so I'll shut up about it for a while) AND they are more likely to want to help you out in the future. Making sure they are happy and healthy means they will be around in the future to help you out.


[/ QUOTE ]

Before you leave this topic, does it seem that there are several evolutionary epochs mixed together in that explanation?

Today, it doesn't make that much sense to prefer people like us, that is a hangover from the past. We should like our asian neighbor or our black nephew or our indian employer, for the reasons of future help. But we don't necessarily, at least not so automatically as how we prefer more clonish 'strangers' that don't meet the 'getcha later' criteria.

The 'carry your genes' base likely predates the extinction of the dinosaurs. We break into the candy store because we like sugar. The prehistory of that liking is not the reason for the crime. We don't kick the door in because sugar is scarce and valuable on the savanna. That's the multilayered time frame I'm pointing to.

I'm quite sure that's somewhat how you meant it but it doesn't read that way ... to me.

hope it doesn't seem like a nitpick, luckyme

[kerowo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


tl;dr past the first para, basically because it makes you look like a penis when you discriminate based on race.



[/ QUOTE ]

what if:

1. you're in jail and have to decide where to sit in the cafeteria? Do you survey everyone on what their musical taste/political views/moral character is and then make your decision?

2. you have a choice between living in a poor neighborhood infested by gangs of your race or a poor neighborhood infested by gangs of a different race

Do you flip a coin to avoid being prejudiced?

[/ QUOTE ]

What if:

1. I make up a really contrived example to proove my point.

2. I just ignore your point as ldo.

Difficult cases make bad laws and these stupid examples don't prove anything. In general, treating people poorly for no other reason than x is a penis move. Are people more comfortable with their own x? Sometimes, but it's probably not 100% Is sitting with people of your own x racist or discriminatory? Only if that choice leads to another group being treated worse than you.

[Xylem]

In answer to hopey yes i do have a chip on my shoulder; ive became an ethnic minority in my own area.

How does this affect me:

1. I feel like a friggin tourist walkin the street, people actually look at me as different (not because im frowning or whatever comeback u were goinng to make).

2. The shops now cater 90% for samarlians muslims and other races. Halal meats, samarlian restaurants shisha bars. Yep i can go in there but i do not like them things. To me my area no longer caters for me.

3. Integration with these people is not a realistic option. Call me ignorant whatever, most of these people are EXTREMELY insular, and im not surprised considering the size of their average family. Furthermore muslims restrictions make them even more insular.

4. I am the one subject to rascist attacks as im the minority, but yet the puzzy media and government still blames whites and portrays whites as the powerful bad guys for affirmative action, stereotype elimination etc.


I do graduate psychology and know a lot on the evolutionary aspects of this debate and all the other negative implications.
Studies show that members of an ingroup are favoured automatically better than out group, and to me race is the predominant 'grouper'.

I think to mainstream media, pc thinking yes i am rascist, but no more so than any donut that actually felt implications or thought about the issues before spouting off PC [censored].

I live in Sheperds Bush BTW.

ps.
Xylem for Prime minister, (vote for me.)

[Taraz]

[ QUOTE ]

1. I feel like a friggin tourist walkin the street, people actually look at me as different (not because im frowning or whatever comeback u were goinng to make).

2. The shops now cater 90% for samarlians muslims and other races. Halal meats, samarlian restaurants shisha bars. Yep i can go in there but i do not like them things. To me my area no longer caters for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't really see what's wrong about the shops catering to their clientele. If everyone in your area prefers these shops, it seems like that's the way it's going to go.

[ QUOTE ]

4. I am the one subject to rascist attacks as im the minority, but yet the puzzy media and government still blames whites and portrays whites as the powerful bad guys for affirmative action, stereotype elimination etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

It doesn't necessarily follow that only people in the minority can be subject to racist attacks. Are you being discriminated against by any of these people? And don't whites have more power nationally than the groups that have moved into your area? I'm not saying the media and the government are blame-free, but what are they blaming whites for exactly?

Basically what you're saying is that the demographics of your area have shifted and it doesn't feel like "home" to you anymore. That's not really racist. If what you say is true and you have less opportunities to make friends and most shops don't cater to your needs, then it just seems like you live in an area which you can't relate to.

It is racist if you feel like these people have no right to move into your area though and think they need to stay away from you. As long as you aren't outraged that something like this could happen, then I don't think you're really being racist.

[iron81]

<font color="red">VIRUS ALERT! DO NOT CLICK </font>

[ledders07]

lol sheperds bush, i know what you mean. shisha bars are the most annoying things in the whole world. smoke some proper [censored] you pussays

[Xylem]

By media blame i mean portraying every criminal on tv as white and things of that nature.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It makes some sense to prefer those who are like you, because those who are like you are both more likely to carry your genes (although it seems like this is the only point I've made in any thread for like the last month so I'll shut up about it for a while) AND they are more likely to want to help you out in the future. Making sure they are happy and healthy means they will be around in the future to help you out.


[/ QUOTE ]

Before you leave this topic, does it seem that there are several evolutionary epochs mixed together in that explanation?

Today, it doesn't make that much sense to prefer people like us, that is a hangover from the past. We should like our asian neighbor or our black nephew or our indian employer, for the reasons of future help. But we don't necessarily, at least not so automatically as how we prefer more clonish 'strangers' that don't meet the 'getcha later' criteria.

The 'carry your genes' base likely predates the extinction of the dinosaurs. We break into the candy store because we like sugar. The prehistory of that liking is not the reason for the crime. We don't kick the door in because sugar is scarce and valuable on the savanna. That's the multilayered time frame I'm pointing to.

I'm quite sure that's somewhat how you meant it but it doesn't read that way ... to me.

hope it doesn't seem like a nitpick, luckyme

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely. The way I usually think about it is, the easier to overcome or reprogram a specific trait is, the more general that 'program' was in the first place. To give a quick example, brothers and sisters raised entirely seperate are remarkably likely to fall in love if they meet as adults. Unrelated boys and girls who are raised in very close proximity are remarkably UNlikely to fall in love as adults. This is because the general anti-incest program is overcome. Racism is much more maladaptive, because the program is more specific: like those who look like you. Pretty hard to circumvent that, and no real evolutionary 'progress' has been made in the blink of an eye since integration, interracial marrying, and group mixing has been a part of humanity.

All of our evolved preferences, skills and programs are designed to best solve the problems of millions of years ago. Back then, you'd probably have to observe thousands of individuals to ever find an example of 'racism gone awry.' Now, its almost universally maladaptive. I agree with your last point, of course, that we don't have sex to pass on our genes but rather because it is fun. The idea is that, randomly, some people happened to really enjoy having sex. Those that did had more offspring. Some people happened to really prefer their own kind. Those were safer and had more/better offspring. This is why racism is maladaptive, as a matter of fact. Its not because we think its icky or wrong or immoral. Its because it is no longer an optimal strategy. Just like gorging yourself on sugary foods.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
In answer to hopey yes i do have a chip on my shoulder; ive became an ethnic minority in my own area.

How does this affect me:

1. I feel like a friggin tourist walkin the street, people actually look at me as different (not because im frowning or whatever comeback u were goinng to make).

2. The shops now cater 90% for samarlians muslims and other races. Halal meats, samarlian restaurants shisha bars. Yep i can go in there but i do not like them things. To me my area no longer caters for me.

3. Integration with these people is not a realistic option. Call me ignorant whatever, most of these people are EXTREMELY insular, and im not surprised considering the size of their average family. Furthermore muslims restrictions make them even more insular.

4. I am the one subject to rascist attacks as im the minority, but yet the puzzy media and government still blames whites and portrays whites as the powerful bad guys for affirmative action, stereotype elimination etc.


I do graduate psychology and know a lot on the evolutionary aspects of this debate and all the other negative implications.
Studies show that members of an ingroup are favoured automatically better than out group, and to me race is the predominant 'grouper'.

I think to mainstream media, pc thinking yes i am rascist, but no more so than any donut that actually felt implications or thought about the issues before spouting off PC [censored].

I live in Sheperds Bush BTW.

ps.
Xylem for Prime minister, (vote for me.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you think you have some inalienable right to conservatism? That it is an affront to you that your surroundings change to meet the needs of the inhabitants, and that this leaves you in the dust?

You should go ask the ACers in Politics what they think about this attitude. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Metric]

There is an expression you may be familiar with known as "there goes the neighborhood." If you don't like the implications of the people moving in around you, you're certainly free to move some place else. Inconvenient, yes, and "too bad" -- but people do it all the time to maintain the living standards they are most comfortable with.

[SNOWBALL]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



what if:

1. you're in jail and have to decide where to sit in the cafeteria? Do you survey everyone on what their musical taste/political views/moral character is and then make your decision?

2. you have a choice between living in a poor neighborhood infested by gangs of your race or a poor neighborhood infested by gangs of a different race

Do you flip a coin to avoid being prejudiced?



[/ QUOTE ]
2. I just ignore your point as ldo.

Difficult cases make bad laws and these stupid examples don't prove anything. In general, treating people poorly for no other reason than x is a penis move. Are people more comfortable with their own x? Sometimes, but it's probably not 100% Is sitting with people of your own x racist or discriminatory? Only if that choice leads to another group being treated worse than you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you denying that the examples I gave are pretty commonplace occurances in the world?

[SNOWBALL]

vhawk,

one reason to seek out people who you are similar to racially, religiously, etc. is that there is a positive correlation coefficient in married couples for almost any trait you can think of. For example: middle finger length, size of earlobe, political beliefs, height, etc. etc. (From The Third Chimpanzee by Jared Diamond)
Because everyone else follows that strategy, it's a reproductive disaster for you to not do the same. (game selection yo)

Notice I'm not saying "treat people poorly if they are different." That's almost always a bad strategy. Making enemies means possibly dying before you can reproduce, and raise your kids, or experiencing injury or becoming a victim of theft or whatever.

What I am saying is that trying win allies and friends amongst people who are different from you is much less likely to succeed that trying to win allies and from a grouple of people who you are similar to. Game selection yo.

Tons of people can say "oh well I have plenty of black friends" or whatever, but the simple matter is that (I'm using a white guy as hero b/c a lot of posters on this site are white):

1. You'd probably have more white friends/sex partners assuming the same level of effort
2, Your black friends/sex partnets will care about you less on average than they will about other black people and your relationships with them well be less successful

The second point is probably marginal, but it's still there.

Personally, I think most of this programming should be overcome on a societal level because it IS suboptimal. Humans experienced most of their evolution in fairly small groups. The world is different now. HOWEVER, some people seem to think that overcoming this program on an individual level is a good thing. It isn't. Just like choosing cooperate in prisoners dilemma in uniterated trials is a dominated strategy, so is color-blindness.

By the way, I really really hate making posts like this. The reason is that most of the posts I make in general are about matters that I am somewhat unsure of, and I'm usually pretty open to having my mind changed. However, even if you change my mind, some people might look at my original arguments and think I'm preaching hatred.

Additionally, some people who have been the victims of racism might be made uncomfortable by my post, which sucks also.

*sigh*

Anyway, I'm looking forward to getting rebutted.

[kerowo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



what if:

1. you're in jail and have to decide where to sit in the cafeteria? Do you survey everyone on what their musical taste/political views/moral character is and then make your decision?

2. you have a choice between living in a poor neighborhood infested by gangs of your race or a poor neighborhood infested by gangs of a different race

Do you flip a coin to avoid being prejudiced?



[/ QUOTE ]
2. I just ignore your point as ldo.

Difficult cases make bad laws and these stupid examples don't prove anything. In general, treating people poorly for no other reason than x is a penis move. Are people more comfortable with their own x? Sometimes, but it's probably not 100% Is sitting with people of your own x racist or discriminatory? Only if that choice leads to another group being treated worse than you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you denying that the examples I gave are pretty commonplace occurances in the world?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm saying they don't have anything to do racism unless your choice results in the people you are avoiding being harmed in some way. There is a pretty wide line between preference and racism and these don't strike me as very close.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
vhawk,

one reason to seek out people who you are similar to racially, religiously, etc. is that there is a positive correlation coefficient in married couples for almost any trait you can think of. For example: middle finger length, size of earlobe, political beliefs, height, etc. etc. (From The Third Chimpanzee by Jared Diamond)
Because everyone else follows that strategy, it's a reproductive disaster for you to not do the same. (game selection yo)

Notice I'm not saying "treat people poorly if they are different." That's almost always a bad strategy. Making enemies means possibly dying before you can reproduce, and raise your kids, or experiencing injury or becoming a victim of theft or whatever.

What I am saying is that trying win allies and friends amongst people who are different from you is much less likely to succeed that trying to win allies and from a grouple of people who you are similar to. Game selection yo.

Tons of people can say "oh well I have plenty of black friends" or whatever, but the simple matter is that (I'm using a white guy as hero b/c a lot of posters on this site are white):

1. You'd probably have more white friends/sex partners assuming the same level of effort
2, Your black friends/sex partnets will care about you less on average than they will about other black people and your relationships with them well be less successful

The second point is probably marginal, but it's still there.

Personally, I think most of this programming should be overcome on a societal level because it IS suboptimal. Humans experienced most of their evolution in fairly small groups. The world is different now. HOWEVER, some people seem to think that overcoming this program on an individual level is a good thing. It isn't. Just like choosing cooperate in prisoners dilemma in uniterated trials is a dominated strategy, so is color-blindness.

By the way, I really really hate making posts like this. The reason is that most of the posts I make in general are about matters that I am somewhat unsure of, and I'm usually pretty open to having my mind changed. However, even if you change my mind, some people might look at my original arguments and think I'm preaching hatred.

Additionally, some people who have been the victims of racism might be made uncomfortable by my post, which sucks also.

*sigh*

Anyway, I'm looking forward to getting rebutted.

[/ QUOTE ]

The entire basis of my previous post was that yes, you are correct, but the correlation for race is SO SMALL compared to the correlation for the myriad things you can find out about a person with an extremely minimal time commitment.

Lets say the trait I'm interested in is: likes football. Now, people who look like me will correlate with my preferences on football to some degree. But you know who correlates even better? People who answer yes when I ask them if they like football. So, when I say its a bad strategy to judge people based on race, I don't mean that its misleading to do so, its simply SO much less +EV compared to investing a few seconds/minutes/hours or whatever to find out more information.

You are correct, a black person is probably less likely to care about me than a white person is. But thats probably a small difference. A much bigger difference can be found among 'people I've spent 5 minutes with and they asked me if I wanted to go get a beer.' Those people are VERY highly correlated with 'caring about me.'

EDIT: I don't think you are preaching hatred at all. I have no problem frankly discussing race or any other topic. I know lots of lazy, stupid people think that the easiest way to 'win' an argument is to just find some way to call the other person a racist, or a bigot, or whatever. I think you'd have a hard time finding a single instance of me doing that in my 5000 posts, and if you did, it would be extremely deserved.

[Taraz]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
vhawk,

one reason to seek out people who you are similar to racially, religiously, etc. is that there is a positive correlation coefficient in married couples for almost any trait you can think of. For example: middle finger length, size of earlobe, political beliefs, height, etc. etc. (From The Third Chimpanzee by Jared Diamond)
Because everyone else follows that strategy, it's a reproductive disaster for you to not do the same. (game selection yo)

Notice I'm not saying "treat people poorly if they are different." That's almost always a bad strategy. Making enemies means possibly dying before you can reproduce, and raise your kids, or experiencing injury or becoming a victim of theft or whatever.

What I am saying is that trying win allies and friends amongst people who are different from you is much less likely to succeed that trying to win allies and from a grouple of people who you are similar to. Game selection yo.

Tons of people can say "oh well I have plenty of black friends" or whatever, but the simple matter is that (I'm using a white guy as hero b/c a lot of posters on this site are white):

1. You'd probably have more white friends/sex partners assuming the same level of effort
2, Your black friends/sex partnets will care about you less on average than they will about other black people and your relationships with them well be less successful

The second point is probably marginal, but it's still there.

Personally, I think most of this programming should be overcome on a societal level because it IS suboptimal. Humans experienced most of their evolution in fairly small groups. The world is different now. HOWEVER, some people seem to think that overcoming this program on an individual level is a good thing. It isn't. Just like choosing cooperate in prisoners dilemma in uniterated trials is a dominated strategy, so is color-blindness.

By the way, I really really hate making posts like this. The reason is that most of the posts I make in general are about matters that I am somewhat unsure of, and I'm usually pretty open to having my mind changed. However, even if you change my mind, some people might look at my original arguments and think I'm preaching hatred.

Additionally, some people who have been the victims of racism might be made uncomfortable by my post, which sucks also.

*sigh*

Anyway, I'm looking forward to getting rebutted.

[/ QUOTE ]

The entire basis of my previous post was that yes, you are correct, but the correlation for race is SO SMALL compared to the correlation for the myriad things you can find out about a person with an extremely minimal time commitment.

Lets say the trait I'm interested in is: likes football. Now, people who look like me will correlate with my preferences on football to some degree. But you know who correlates even better? People who answer yes when I ask them if they like football. So, when I say its a bad strategy to judge people based on race, I don't mean that its misleading to do so, its simply SO much less +EV compared to investing a few seconds/minutes/hours or whatever to find out more information.

You are correct, a black person is probably less likely to care about me than a white person is. But thats probably a small difference. A much bigger difference can be found among 'people I've spent 5 minutes with and they asked me if I wanted to go get a beer.' Those people are VERY highly correlated with 'caring about me.'

EDIT: I don't think you are preaching hatred at all. I have no problem frankly discussing race or any other topic. I know lots of lazy, stupid people think that the easiest way to 'win' an argument is to just find some way to call the other person a racist, or a bigot, or whatever. I think you'd have a hard time finding a single instance of me doing that in my 5000 posts, and if you did, it would be extremely deserved.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think many people call this brand of thinking "racist" because it is often used to justify people's racism. I'm half-black, so I'm pretty sensitive about these issues, but I don't really think your claims are that controversial (strictly speaking).

What you have to understand is that the reason we (minorities) are sensitive to this kind of talk is that it leads to the following: Person A, let's call him Joe, doesn't like black people. He doesn't know much about them, but he thinks they are lazy and don't work hard. He doesn't think their "culture", if you can even call it that, has anything to contribute to society. So he prefers not to associate with them. If anyone asks him why he doesn't have more black friends, he trots out this story about how it isn't a good strategy because he will have less in common with them on average. This is called covert racism.

I know a lot of you will say that this doesn't exist in the real world, but I can personally attest to the fact that you're wrong. I grew up in a very homogeneous white community and I literally have zero friends left from high school. I saw my closest friends from childhood grow up into bigots like this and I just can't stand being around them anymore. Since I am "different" and not like "normal black guys" they confided in me. Because, after all, I had to admit that "black guys are just plain dumber", and that I shouldn't be so sensitive when one of them calls me a nigg*r, and that blacks and Mexicans haven't contributed anything meaningful to this country. When they were in front of people they didn't know they would go back under their shell of why they don't associate with black people, but they didn't have to say "PC bullsh*t" around me.

So while what you're saying is all basically true, it's often used as a mask that lets people hold other beliefs. This is why black people get mad when people say we're naturally more athletic than white people. That normally carries the connotation that the white guy had to work harder in sports and plays "smart". Meanwhile the black guy is getting by on pure athleticism and is just a "raw athlete". This too often ignores the fact that the black guys often worked twice as hard to get where they are at. (This pisses me off to no end when I'm playing basketball because I've probably spent more hours practicing and playing basketball than anything else in life and it gets branded as "natural quickness".)

Sorry for the diatribe, but I thought I'd give you an insight into how it often looks from the other side . . .

[SNOWBALL]

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry for the diatribe, but I thought I'd give you an insight into how it often looks from the other side . . .

[/ QUOTE ]

I agreed with your post, so no need to apologize. I thought it was well written.

[Xylem]

Do u still live in that area or has being the minority (holding minority views etc) made u decide to leave?

Being white in 'non white' areas also leads to covert rascism which is actually worse because 1. its more covert and 2. Im the one portrayed as the rascist in society.

[MidGe]

[ QUOTE ]
Being white in 'non white' areas also leads to covert rascism which is actually worse because 1. its more covert and 2. Im the one portrayed as the rascist in society.

[/ QUOTE ]


!!!???

ORLY

[Wubbie075]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Being white in 'non white' areas also leads to covert rascism which is actually worse because 1. its more covert and 2. Im the one portrayed as the rascist in society.

[/ QUOTE ]


!!!???

ORLY

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not gonna argue that it is "worse" or "not worse" but I have experiences like this... I am as white as they come (I'm italian irish polish and french in ancestry) and I spent a few years living in an area that was about 75% black and 23% latin... I also went to a college that was predominantly non-white...

I'd go to the local chinese take out place and after I ordered I'd tell them I'd be right back to pick up my food and more than a few times someone from the neighborhood would say something along the lines of "that's not guaranteed, cracker"... certainly things like that (and much much worse) happened to countless blacks throughout our history and I am sure in some places it still does... personally, I just shrugged it off and nothin ever happened to me...

but what DID bother me was the lecture sponsored by some club on campus and <u>endorsed by the school</u> entitled "Are white people inherently evil?"... I can just imagine the reaction by the very same ppl who attended that lecture if some college other were to have a lecture by the KKK or other white supremacist group with a similar topic about black people... double standards stink

[JMa]

[ QUOTE ]

I hate the fact that im an etnic minority. Whenever i see a school playground or children i play spot the white man and unless i need glasses id say that my area has been saturated by non native peoples.


[/ QUOTE ]

native?? lol, you should prob read up on UKs history

[Taraz]

[ QUOTE ]
Do u still live in that area or has being the minority (holding minority views etc) made u decide to leave?

[/ QUOTE ]

I went away to college and haven't moved back since graduated a few years ago. I go back to visit my parents very regularly though. I don't plan on moving back to my old neighborhood but I don't think it has as much to do with the racism. It's definitely a factor, but not the overriding one.

[ QUOTE ]

Being white in 'non white' areas also leads to covert rascism which is actually worse because 1. its more covert and 2. Im the one portrayed as the rascist in society.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm really shocked that you feel the need to prove that the brand of racism you feel is somehow worse. Racism is always pretty lame.

This seems like the first time in your life where you're truly the minority in your own area. I don't know how it is in the UK, but you're basically describing the minority experience in the United States. It seems weird that you think you understand the phenomenon so well that you can claim to know that it's worse than what non-whites feel.

Would you mind explaining why you think the racism is more covert on your side?

I flatly disagree that your second point is that bad. Is it worse if society thinks you're inherently prejudiced or if society thinks you're inherently an ape? I don't doubt that it sucks that you're branded to have racist tendencies before people know you, but there are a hell of a lot of worse things you could be branded.

[Taraz]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd go to the local chinese take out place and after I ordered I'd tell them I'd be right back to pick up my food and more than a few times someone from the neighborhood would say something along the lines of "that's not guaranteed, cracker"... certainly things like that (and much much worse) happened to countless blacks throughout our history and I am sure in some places it still does... personally, I just shrugged it off and nothin ever happened to me...

[/ QUOTE ]

The bitch about racism is that if you're constantly hearing these remarks you eventually start to internalize it. It's the saddest thing when a little kid thinks he's somehow worth less than his classmates because of the color of his skin.

[ QUOTE ]

but what DID bother me was the lecture sponsored by some club on campus and <u>endorsed by the school</u> entitled "Are white people inherently evil?"... I can just imagine the reaction by the very same ppl who attended that lecture if some college other were to have a lecture by the KKK or other white supremacist group with a similar topic about black people... double standards stink

[/ QUOTE ]

I dunno, it seems like one of those "edgy" titles to get people to attend. I can pretty much guarantee you that the answer was no. I take your point though that it's kind of a rude question to use as a title. And I bet if you complain about it people would be pretty lame about it and say that you're white and you shouldn't care. It is pretty crappy.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
vhawk,

one reason to seek out people who you are similar to racially, religiously, etc. is that there is a positive correlation coefficient in married couples for almost any trait you can think of. For example: middle finger length, size of earlobe, political beliefs, height, etc. etc. (From The Third Chimpanzee by Jared Diamond)
Because everyone else follows that strategy, it's a reproductive disaster for you to not do the same. (game selection yo)

Notice I'm not saying "treat people poorly if they are different." That's almost always a bad strategy. Making enemies means possibly dying before you can reproduce, and raise your kids, or experiencing injury or becoming a victim of theft or whatever.

What I am saying is that trying win allies and friends amongst people who are different from you is much less likely to succeed that trying to win allies and from a grouple of people who you are similar to. Game selection yo.

Tons of people can say "oh well I have plenty of black friends" or whatever, but the simple matter is that (I'm using a white guy as hero b/c a lot of posters on this site are white):

1. You'd probably have more white friends/sex partners assuming the same level of effort
2, Your black friends/sex partnets will care about you less on average than they will about other black people and your relationships with them well be less successful

The second point is probably marginal, but it's still there.

Personally, I think most of this programming should be overcome on a societal level because it IS suboptimal. Humans experienced most of their evolution in fairly small groups. The world is different now. HOWEVER, some people seem to think that overcoming this program on an individual level is a good thing. It isn't. Just like choosing cooperate in prisoners dilemma in uniterated trials is a dominated strategy, so is color-blindness.

By the way, I really really hate making posts like this. The reason is that most of the posts I make in general are about matters that I am somewhat unsure of, and I'm usually pretty open to having my mind changed. However, even if you change my mind, some people might look at my original arguments and think I'm preaching hatred.

Additionally, some people who have been the victims of racism might be made uncomfortable by my post, which sucks also.

*sigh*

Anyway, I'm looking forward to getting rebutted.

[/ QUOTE ]

The entire basis of my previous post was that yes, you are correct, but the correlation for race is SO SMALL compared to the correlation for the myriad things you can find out about a person with an extremely minimal time commitment.

Lets say the trait I'm interested in is: likes football. Now, people who look like me will correlate with my preferences on football to some degree. But you know who correlates even better? People who answer yes when I ask them if they like football. So, when I say its a bad strategy to judge people based on race, I don't mean that its misleading to do so, its simply SO much less +EV compared to investing a few seconds/minutes/hours or whatever to find out more information.

You are correct, a black person is probably less likely to care about me than a white person is. But thats probably a small difference. A much bigger difference can be found among 'people I've spent 5 minutes with and they asked me if I wanted to go get a beer.' Those people are VERY highly correlated with 'caring about me.'

EDIT: I don't think you are preaching hatred at all. I have no problem frankly discussing race or any other topic. I know lots of lazy, stupid people think that the easiest way to 'win' an argument is to just find some way to call the other person a racist, or a bigot, or whatever. I think you'd have a hard time finding a single instance of me doing that in my 5000 posts, and if you did, it would be extremely deserved.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think many people call this brand of thinking "racist" because it is often used to justify people's racism. I'm half-black, so I'm pretty sensitive about these issues, but I don't really think your claims are that controversial (strictly speaking).

What you have to understand is that the reason we (minorities) are sensitive to this kind of talk is that it leads to the following: Person A, let's call him Joe, doesn't like black people. He doesn't know much about them, but he thinks they are lazy and don't work hard. He doesn't think their "culture", if you can even call it that, has anything to contribute to society. So he prefers not to associate with them. If anyone asks him why he doesn't have more black friends, he trots out this story about how it isn't a good strategy because he will have less in common with them on average. This is called covert racism.

I know a lot of you will say that this doesn't exist in the real world, but I can personally attest to the fact that you're wrong. I grew up in a very homogeneous white community and I literally have zero friends left from high school. I saw my closest friends from childhood grow up into bigots like this and I just can't stand being around them anymore. Since I am "different" and not like "normal black guys" they confided in me. Because, after all, I had to admit that "black guys are just plain dumber", and that I shouldn't be so sensitive when one of them calls me a nigg*r, and that blacks and Mexicans haven't contributed anything meaningful to this country. When they were in front of people they didn't know they would go back under their shell of why they don't associate with black people, but they didn't have to say "PC bullsh*t" around me.

So while what you're saying is all basically true, it's often used as a mask that lets people hold other beliefs. This is why black people get mad when people say we're naturally more athletic than white people. That normally carries the connotation that the white guy had to work harder in sports and plays "smart". Meanwhile the black guy is getting by on pure athleticism and is just a "raw athlete". This too often ignores the fact that the black guys often worked twice as hard to get where they are at. (This pisses me off to no end when I'm playing basketball because I've probably spent more hours practicing and playing basketball than anything else in life and it gets branded as "natural quickness".)

Sorry for the diatribe, but I thought I'd give you an insight into how it often looks from the other side . . .

[/ QUOTE ]

This is why I tried to make it obvious that, while TECHNICALLY true that those who look like you will have more in common with you, this is an extremely WEAK correlation, compared to other far more accurate characteristics. So, while it is still +EV compared to randomly selecting, it is woefully -EV compared to intelligently and discerningly getting to know people or finding out about other traits. I hope this doesn't give any justification for racism, but instead illustrates exactly WHY its such a stupid, terrible strategy (in addition to any moral claims you may want to make).

In fact, I think it is exactly this fear that you have about posts like mine that have the potential to further this type of closet racism. By being uncomfortable (or flat out refusing) talking about how 'effective' racist strategies are, we all pretend like its just obviously stupid and cant possibly work. But the racist isn't (always) a complete moron. He can figure out for himself that it DOES work, at least to some degree. Anyone can see that. So, now its easy to just dismiss anything you have to say, since you 'are obviously lying and hiding the truth to support your liberal/hippy agenda.' See what I mean? I personally think its harder to defend your racism in the light of an analysis like mine than in the light of blind rejection of anything having to do with race at all.

[Wubbie075]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd go to the local chinese take out place and after I ordered I'd tell them I'd be right back to pick up my food and more than a few times someone from the neighborhood would say something along the lines of "that's not guaranteed, cracker"... certainly things like that (and much much worse) happened to countless blacks throughout our history and I am sure in some places it still does... personally, I just shrugged it off and nothin ever happened to me...

[/ QUOTE ]

The bitch about racism is that if you're constantly hearing these remarks you eventually start to internalize it. It's the saddest thing when a little kid thinks he's somehow worth less than his classmates because of the color of his skin.

[ QUOTE ]

but what DID bother me was the lecture sponsored by some club on campus and <u>endorsed by the school</u> entitled "Are white people inherently evil?"... I can just imagine the reaction by the very same ppl who attended that lecture if some college other were to have a lecture by the KKK or other white supremacist group with a similar topic about black people... double standards stink

[/ QUOTE ]

I dunno, it seems like one of those "edgy" titles to get people to attend. I can pretty much guarantee you that the answer was no. I take your point though that it's kind of a rude question to use as a title. And I bet if you complain about it people would be pretty lame about it and say that you're white and you shouldn't care. It is pretty crappy.

[/ QUOTE ]

No it wasn't trying to be "edgy" to boost attendance... it was a serious topic of discussion... of course this is the same school that has Leonard Jeffries (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonard_Jeffries) on the faculty

[Taraz]

[ QUOTE ]

This is why I tried to make it obvious that, while TECHNICALLY true that those who look like you will have more in common with you, this is an extremely WEAK correlation, compared to other far more accurate characteristics. So, while it is still +EV compared to randomly selecting, it is woefully -EV compared to intelligently and discerningly getting to know people or finding out about other traits. I hope this doesn't give any justification for racism, but instead illustrates exactly WHY its such a stupid, terrible strategy (in addition to any moral claims you may want to make).

[/ QUOTE ]

I wasn't trying to paint either of you guys as actually holding these kinds of views. I was merely explaining why it's not "PC" to talk about these things a lot of times.

[ QUOTE ]

In fact, I think it is exactly this fear that you have about posts like mine that have the potential to further this type of closet racism. By being uncomfortable (or flat out refusing) talking about how 'effective' racist strategies are, we all pretend like its just obviously stupid and cant possibly work. But the racist isn't (always) a complete moron. He can figure out for himself that it DOES work, at least to some degree. Anyone can see that. So, now its easy to just dismiss anything you have to say, since you 'are obviously lying and hiding the truth to support your liberal/hippy agenda.' See what I mean? I personally think its harder to defend your racism in the light of an analysis like mine than in the light of blind rejection of anything having to do with race at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think I necessarily fear these ideas, but I do think it's necessary to be extremely careful when discussing them. You have to be hyper-aware of your audience and frame things so that you actually get your point across. That's kind of the essence of being "politically correct" in my mind.

Basically I was just trying to point out why some of us are wary when we hear similar arguments from people we don't know well. It's definitely a discussion we need to have, but unless there is some underlying trust, nobody will listen.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

This is why I tried to make it obvious that, while TECHNICALLY true that those who look like you will have more in common with you, this is an extremely WEAK correlation, compared to other far more accurate characteristics. So, while it is still +EV compared to randomly selecting, it is woefully -EV compared to intelligently and discerningly getting to know people or finding out about other traits. I hope this doesn't give any justification for racism, but instead illustrates exactly WHY its such a stupid, terrible strategy (in addition to any moral claims you may want to make).

[/ QUOTE ]

I wasn't trying to paint either of you guys as actually holding these kinds of views. I was merely explaining why it's not "PC" to talk about these things a lot of times.

[ QUOTE ]

In fact, I think it is exactly this fear that you have about posts like mine that have the potential to further this type of closet racism. By being uncomfortable (or flat out refusing) talking about how 'effective' racist strategies are, we all pretend like its just obviously stupid and cant possibly work. But the racist isn't (always) a complete moron. He can figure out for himself that it DOES work, at least to some degree. Anyone can see that. So, now its easy to just dismiss anything you have to say, since you 'are obviously lying and hiding the truth to support your liberal/hippy agenda.' See what I mean? I personally think its harder to defend your racism in the light of an analysis like mine than in the light of blind rejection of anything having to do with race at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think I necessarily fear these ideas, but I do think it's necessary to be extremely careful when discussing them. You have to be hyper-aware of your audience and frame things so that you actually get your point across. That's kind of the essence of being "politically correct" in my mind.

Basically I was just trying to point out why some of us are wary when we hear similar arguments from people we don't know well. It's definitely a discussion we need to have, but unless there is some underlying trust, nobody will listen.

[/ QUOTE ]

Point well taken. We have discussions about things like apostasy, racism, incest, murder, genocide and others here on SMP. I certainly don't have these discussions with the random morons I meet every day. I have some level of trust that my points will at least be considered when I make them here, although this place isn't exempt from lazy, buzz-word thinking. I don't think you'll find me spouting one-liners about "Racism as a preferred strategy" to the masses.

[Taraz]

[ QUOTE ]
Point well taken. We have discussions about things like apostasy, racism, incest, murder, genocide and others here on SMP. I certainly don't have these discussions with the random morons I meet every day. I have some level of trust that my points will at least be considered when I make them here, although this place isn't exempt from lazy, buzz-word thinking. I don't think you'll find me spouting one-liners about "Racism as a preferred strategy" to the masses.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know, I just think it's important to keep these things in mind. A lot of posts that I make it response to posts of yours that are similar to this aren't really written for you. I'm usually writing them for people who are casually reading your post so that they consider a broader perspective on the issues.

[Taraz]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd go to the local chinese take out place and after I ordered I'd tell them I'd be right back to pick up my food and more than a few times someone from the neighborhood would say something along the lines of "that's not guaranteed, cracker"... certainly things like that (and much much worse) happened to countless blacks throughout our history and I am sure in some places it still does... personally, I just shrugged it off and nothin ever happened to me...

[/ QUOTE ]

The bitch about racism is that if you're constantly hearing these remarks you eventually start to internalize it. It's the saddest thing when a little kid thinks he's somehow worth less than his classmates because of the color of his skin.

[ QUOTE ]

but what DID bother me was the lecture sponsored by some club on campus and <u>endorsed by the school</u> entitled "Are white people inherently evil?"... I can just imagine the reaction by the very same ppl who attended that lecture if some college other were to have a lecture by the KKK or other white supremacist group with a similar topic about black people... double standards stink

[/ QUOTE ]

I dunno, it seems like one of those "edgy" titles to get people to attend. I can pretty much guarantee you that the answer was no. I take your point though that it's kind of a rude question to use as a title. And I bet if you complain about it people would be pretty lame about it and say that you're white and you shouldn't care. It is pretty crappy.

[/ QUOTE ]

No it wasn't trying to be "edgy" to boost attendance... it was a serious topic of discussion... of course this is the same school that has Leonard Jeffries (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonard_Jeffries) on the faculty

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't mean to jump on you, but did you actually attend the lecture? What did they discuss?

I find it incredibly hard to believe that any serious academic would seriously entertain the notion that anybody is "evil". This especially true among sociologists and psychologists. It's so much more likely they were discussing why minorities hold this image of whites as evil.

Edit: Wow I just read about this Jeffries guy. He sounds insane.

[SNOWBALL]

[ QUOTE ]
I dunno, it seems like one of those "edgy" titles to get people to attend. I can pretty much guarantee you that the answer was no. I take your point though that it's kind of a rude question to use as a title

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe you also think this speech by brother Kambon (http://youtube.com/watch?v=-o4G9nCRcGU&amp;mode=related&amp;search=) is just "sort of genocidal"?

Don't fall into the trap of being overly defensive of people you perceive to be "on your own side."
The fact that you feel this impulse though is evidence of the points I made above though.

[SNOWBALL]

[ QUOTE ]

I find it incredibly hard to believe that any serious academic would seriously entertain the notion that anybody is "evil".

[/ QUOTE ]

1. the academic world is extremely diverse. You can find a PhD to say almost anything you want them to say. The pure insanity is usually condemned by their peers, but that doesn't stop whackos from getting ahold of a microphone or getting a quote into a newspaper.
2. The speakers at the forum/teachin/event were not necessarily PhD's. It's possible that it was organized jointly by a student group or w/e.

[Taraz]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I dunno, it seems like one of those "edgy" titles to get people to attend. I can pretty much guarantee you that the answer was no. I take your point though that it's kind of a rude question to use as a title

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe you also think this speech by brother Kambon (http://youtube.com/watch?v=-o4G9nCRcGU&amp;mode=related&amp;search=) is just "sort of genocidal"?

Don't fall into the trap of being overly defensive of people you perceive to be "on your own side."
The fact that you feel this impulse though is evidence of the points I made above though.

[/ QUOTE ]

My only defense is that I guess I went to a school where it was extremely rare to hold "lectures" by people with no credibility.

[Taraz]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I find it incredibly hard to believe that any serious academic would seriously entertain the notion that anybody is "evil".

[/ QUOTE ]

1. the academic world is extremely diverse. You can find a PhD to say almost anything you want them to say. The pure insanity is usually condemned by their peers, but that doesn't stop whackos from getting ahold of a microphone or getting a quote into a newspaper.
2. The speakers at the forum/teachin/event were not necessarily PhD's. It's possible that it was organized jointly by a student group or w/e.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess that's why I made the "serious academic" qualification. I guess I also work in the field of science which is falsifiable. Maybe more extreme views are tolerated in fields where you can't be proven right or wrong.

[Wubbie075]

I also recall a bit of a social experiment that someone I attended a different college with performed... this school had your typical group of clubs based on ethnic/racial lines.. italian club, chinese students association, society of black engineers, etc... so this guy attempted to start a club called the "American Students Association"...

he got ripped by almost everyone for being a white supremacist nazi KKK racist... of course the guy never once mentioned the words "white" or "caucasian" in any description of the club... and he had absolutely no intention of denying anyone membership based on race or ethnicity...

but he knew exactly what the reaction would be (he had discussed it with some ppl ahead if time)... I found it both amusing and sad... the club never got off the ground

EDIT/DISCLAIMER: I did not mean to imply that the ethnic organizations were allowed to or even attempted to discriminate in their membership criteria (in fact, I was an officer of the Chinese Students Association)

[Jerry D]

Get used to it. Soon you will be the last white person left in England. This situation will come about even sooner in the USA. "Whites" are a dieing 'race.' In 200 years they will only exist on old DVD movies and photos - and the world will be a much better place for it.

[Xylem]

I think jerry d should get banned for this.

Anyway i dont think u believe white rascism brands blacks apes, if so thats pretty ignorant and insulting to whites.

We all evolved from apes yes but to say most modern white rascists think blacks apes is stupid.

As for the covert rascism thing its hard to argue degrees of suffering but at least as an 'obvious' minority u feel u have a right to feel aggrieved by rascism and know that u are amoung many and have support.

As a white minority im in one of the extreme parts of the spectrum and the extremes always have the most extreme circumstances. Without getting to pedantic at least u can see in mathematical terms how i might be right.

[Jerry D]

Have you even looked at the demographic trends my friend? The white poplulation of Europe and the US is rapidly declining. Wake up and smell the coffee.

[kerowo]

[ QUOTE ]
Have you even looked at the demographic trends my friend? The white poplulation of Europe and the US is rapidly declining. Wake up and smell the coffee.

[/ QUOTE ]

What's your point?

[Manipulator88]

I'm White.

I live in Toronto, Canada, a particular city in a particular country that is trying to identify itself nationally through it's "Multiculturalism". This does not bother me. I welcome all who wish to come here, to have the freedom and lifestyle that they may not have in their home country.

What bothers me is that I am a "minority in my own city". I accept the fact that yes, my country was inhabited by aboriginal peoples and the white man stole it from them, ruthlessly and in coldblood. I accept and I truly regret that, so please don't waste time getting technical.

That aside, these are things I see and deal with every day, truths that are not inherently racist, but if I were to raise my voice I would be condemned by the politically correct, and bleeding-heart liberals.

The korean community, above any other racial community in my city, is very disrespectful. I say this because, in my country, where the official language is ENGLISH, and business is conducted in ENGLISH, I don't think it wrong to expect a little respect, that if someone should choose to live in my country, for whatever reason, they should speak the language in public, and when in the presence of other NON-KOREAN speaking individuals.

I find this to not be the case with the VAST majority. They dedicate themselves to maintaining huge conversations with people of their own race, in their own language. Exclusion is one thing, (ironic considering how much we cherish our "multiculuralism"), but the lack of respect and courtesy really burns my bacon.

And then we have other individuals who come here, and fresh off the boat apply for welfare, with no intention whatsoever of getting a job. Source? Plenty. My father worked for social services, welfare division. Census results. Need I say more? In addition, the government offers large "baby bonuses" to individuals of a minority, whereas my single mother supporting 2 kids working 50 hrs/ week at a hardware store was getting a measly 50 dollars or so a month.

I apologize if it's wrong to feel that people still need to earn the priviledges, and even basic rights and freedoms that the majority of the world still doesn't have. No, actually, I don't.

The people of my race have done terrible things to people throughout the generations, and regardless of my families personal past (which to the best of my knowledge, is fairly devoid of such stains), I don't think it's right for blood to pay for their parent's sins. But as time goes on, people have lost their balls and their freedom to say things for how they are, which is the largest obstacle preventing us from fixing the problems of the world. <font color="orange"> </font>

[pokerbobo]

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Sorry for the diatribe, but I thought I'd give you an insight into how it often looks from the other side . . .

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I agreed with your post, so no need to apologize. I thought it was well written.

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you arent calling him articulate are you? that dont fly in this day and age.

[Taraz]

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Sorry for the diatribe, but I thought I'd give you an insight into how it often looks from the other side . . .

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I agreed with your post, so no need to apologize. I thought it was well written.

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you arent calling him articulate are you? that dont fly in this day and age.

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LOL

[Taraz]

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The korean community, above any other racial community in my city, is very disrespectful. I say this because, in my country, where the official language is ENGLISH, and business is conducted in ENGLISH, I don't think it wrong to expect a little respect, that if someone should choose to live in my country, for whatever reason, they should speak the language in public, and when in the presence of other NON-KOREAN speaking individuals.


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I don't really have any beef with most of your post, but I don't get the above paragraph. I could never understand why it matters if two people are speaking in a different language in front of you. Do you have a specific scenario in mind where you think it's unacceptable?

It seems like if I can express myself better in a different language and the guy I'm talking to can understand that language, I should be able to speak it to him. I think it's important that everyone learn the national language, but I don't see why it's necessary to stop using your native language.

[Xylem]

The notion of country was just a formal announcement of the territory the given power 'rightfully' declared its own for itself and its ppl.

Their territory became their home and if u take this analogy further is it wrong to not want foregners in your home. At the end of the day i do feel for the starving etc but not enough to harm my QOL. Call it cold or whatever i think its down to experience, these ppl that my countrys help have in no way returned the favor to me and so its a bad deal.

The point was if u see ure country as ure home then u should expect ure 'guests' to be courteous enough to integrate.

A very big problem wit modern society today is that no1 sees their country as home.
Individualistic societys come from these reasons and imo individualistic societys are generally bad for quality of life.

[Taraz]

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The point was if u see ure country as ure home then u should expect ure 'guests' to be courteous enough to integrate.


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I agree that people should try to integrate themselves into the culture around them. With that said, if you had a foreign couple as guests in your house would you be upset if they started speaking in their native language in front of you? What if one of them doesn't speak English well at all? Is he supposed to just stay silent?

[Taraz]

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I also recall a bit of a social experiment that someone I attended a different college with performed... this school had your typical group of clubs based on ethnic/racial lines.. italian club, chinese students association, society of black engineers, etc... so this guy attempted to start a club called the "American Students Association"...

he got ripped by almost everyone for being a white supremacist nazi KKK racist... of course the guy never once mentioned the words "white" or "caucasian" in any description of the club... and he had absolutely no intention of denying anyone membership based on race or ethnicity...

but he knew exactly what the reaction would be (he had discussed it with some ppl ahead if time)... I found it both amusing and sad... the club never got off the ground

EDIT/DISCLAIMER: I did not mean to imply that the ethnic organizations were allowed to or even attempted to discriminate in their membership criteria (in fact, I was an officer of the Chinese Students Association)

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I think a big reason that people find a "white students association" racist is that you can't really point to what "white culture" really is. I don't think anyone would argue against an Irish student association, a German club, or even a Wisconsin club. But what do you talk about in the "white club"? It seems like the only things to say are negative (I mean negative as in "we aren't X", not negative as in bad).

This is kind of the same argument against an American students association. Isn't that everybody on campus? Couldn't you just talk to your neighbors about American issues over dinner? What is the purpose of congregating? If you were in some other country it would make sense, but I think the assumption is that there isn't really an "American culture" that 90% of us aren't already living every day.

It seems like most of the time the people who start these kinds of clubs are just trying to get a rise out of people. I don't think they are necessarily racist, but they are trying to incite people to call them racist so they can respond, "YOU are the racist one! I'm just trying to have my own club! You're such a hypocrite!" I mean what issues could this club possibly be dealing with?

Paradoxically, I think such a club would be much more worthwhile on a historically black campus. In that case I think such a club could be worthwhile but I'm sure it would be thought of as more racist.

[Wubbie075]

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I think a big reason that people find a "white students association" racist is that you can't really point to what "white culture" really is. I don't think anyone would argue against an Irish student association, a German club, or even a Wisconsin club. But what do you talk about in the "white club"? It seems like the only things to say are negative (I mean negative as in "we aren't X", not negative as in bad).

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So is the irish club limited to only speak about potatoes and beer and whisky? If they discuss non irish-specific issues does that invalidate the entire purpose of the club? I think it is pretty disengenuous to say the "white americans club" is not a valid organization because you cannot imagine anything positive they might discuss. Besides, I am certain their are plenty of black organizations within the US (including on college campuses) that have a primarily anti-white agenda, yet they still have the priviledge of existing. Not every white organiztion will inevitibly be a KKK chapter.

There is a pretty large segment of the american populace that identify themselves simply as "white american". In some cases these people are not even aware of their specific ancestry. I myself am aware of most of my ancestry but I do not at all identify with any aspects of "my culture". I am mixed of 4 (white european) nationalities and 2 religions. Personally, I don't feel any need to give myself any ethnically identifying tag, but why should other such "white americans" not have the right to claim some cultural standing in the US when all other ethnicities can do so? Certainly the southern/redneck/nascar crowd is prevelant enough to qualify as a distinct culture along the same lines as non-american ethnicities

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This is kind of the same argument against an American students association. Isn't that everybody on campus? Couldn't you just talk to your neighbors about American issues over dinner? What is the purpose of congregating? If you were in some other country it would make sense, but I think the assumption is that there isn't really an "American culture" that 90% of us aren't already living every day.

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Couldn't italian students meet for dinner without a distinct campus sponsored organization? Can't any ethnic group of students do the same? Campus organizations are given funding. Why are white american students denied equal access to these funds?

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It seems like most of the time the people who start these kinds of clubs are just trying to get a rise out of people. I don't think they are necessarily racist, but they are trying to incite people to call them racist so they can respond, "YOU are the racist one! I'm just trying to have my own club! You're such a hypocrite!"

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Or perhaps they are just trying to bring attention to the many double standards when it comes to race relations in this country.

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I mean what issues could this club possibly be dealing with?

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Perhaps if these clubs were allowed to exist, you could attend their meetings and hear what they have to say and what issues they deal with. This very topic is clearly an "issue" that might be discussed. Surely you don't think that life for white americans is perfect and there are not any challenges that we face. Even among my friends (I am one of a small white minority in my social circle) I am often confronted with ludicrous questions like "But you are white, what problems do you have to deal with??" Yeah right, I am white (oh and part jewish too) so therefore I get my special government check and the newsletter showing listings of all the good jobs that minorities are denied access to. My bad for oppressing everyone all these years.

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Paradoxically, I think such a club would be much more worthwhile on a historically black campus. In that case I think such a club could be worthwhile but I'm sure it would be thought of as more racist.

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I agree that it would be thought of as racist, because as you have shown us in this very post I am quoting, it is almost inconceivable that a non-faith-based white organization could have anything but a racist agenda.

[tarheeljks]

i understand your point but i think you are overlooking the reasons why ethnic minorities feel the need to establish these groups. ethnic minorities live in a white culture and as a result sometimes have to make extra effort to retain parts of their own culture. why would you need a white students association when that is essentially the status quo?

[Taraz]

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I think a big reason that people find a "white students association" racist is that you can't really point to what "white culture" really is. I don't think anyone would argue against an Irish student association, a German club, or even a Wisconsin club. But what do you talk about in the "white club"? It seems like the only things to say are negative (I mean negative as in "we aren't X", not negative as in bad).

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So is the irish club limited to only speak about potatoes and beer and whisky? If they discuss non irish-specific issues does that invalidate the entire purpose of the club? I think it is pretty disengenuous to say the "white americans club" is not a valid organization because you cannot imagine anything positive they might discuss. Besides, I am certain their are plenty of black organizations within the US (including on college campuses) that have a primarily anti-white agenda, yet they still have the priviledge of existing. Not every white organiztion will inevitibly be a KKK chapter.

There is a pretty large segment of the american populace that identify themselves simply as "white american". In some cases these people are not even aware of their specific ancestry. I myself am aware of most of my ancestry but I do not at all identify with any aspects of "my culture". I am mixed of 4 (white european) nationalities and 2 religions. Personally, I don't feel any need to give myself any ethnically identifying tag, but why should other such "white americans" not have the right to claim some cultural standing in the US when all other ethnicities can do so? Certainly the southern/redneck/nascar crowd is prevelant enough to qualify as a distinct culture along the same lines as non-american ethnicities

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This is kind of the same argument against an American students association. Isn't that everybody on campus? Couldn't you just talk to your neighbors about American issues over dinner? What is the purpose of congregating? If you were in some other country it would make sense, but I think the assumption is that there isn't really an "American culture" that 90% of us aren't already living every day.

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Couldn't italian students meet for dinner without a distinct campus sponsored organization? Can't any ethnic group of students do the same? Campus organizations are given funding. Why are white american students denied equal access to these funds?

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It seems like most of the time the people who start these kinds of clubs are just trying to get a rise out of people. I don't think they are necessarily racist, but they are trying to incite people to call them racist so they can respond, "YOU are the racist one! I'm just trying to have my own club! You're such a hypocrite!"

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Or perhaps they are just trying to bring attention to the many double standards when it comes to race relations in this country.

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I mean what issues could this club possibly be dealing with?

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Perhaps if these clubs were allowed to exist, you could attend their meetings and hear what they have to say and what issues they deal with. This very topic is clearly an "issue" that might be discussed. Surely you don't think that life for white americans is perfect and there are not any challenges that we face. Even among my friends (I am one of a small white minority in my social circle) I am often confronted with ludicrous questions like "But you are white, what problems do you have to deal with??" Yeah right, I am white (oh and part jewish too) so therefore I get my special government check and the newsletter showing listings of all the good jobs that minorities are denied access to. My bad for oppressing everyone all these years.

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Paradoxically, I think such a club would be much more worthwhile on a historically black campus. In that case I think such a club could be worthwhile but I'm sure it would be thought of as more racist.

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I agree that it would be thought of as racist, because as you have shown us in this very post I am quoting, it is almost inconceivable that a non-faith-based white organization could have anything but a racist agenda.

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I think you're missing one of my overall points. People find it easier to relate to and talk to people who share a similar background with themselves. If you are in the minority, it could be very difficult to just gather up all the people of your ethnicity and have a night out without some sort of organizing force.

In my freshman dorm there were three black people. Am I supposed to choose between three people when I want to talk about an issue that I am facing as a minority? The only way to really find other black people to associate with is through a club or activity of some sort.

There were over seventy white people in my dorm. If I were white and wanted to talk to somebody about our shared experiences I would have over twenty times the number of people to talk to. It would be much, much easier to find someone with whom I can get along.

If you have a "white club" you're not really narrowing things down in order to give yourself a better chance of finding someone you can relate to. If you have a minority club, you are taking a very defined subset of the general population. This is why I said it would be better to have a more specific club.

I am still curious as to what kinds of issues you feel like would talk about in this club that you couldn't talk to with a random assortment of people around you. What do you even talk about in an "American club"?

[Xylem]

I got ure point about white clubs Taraz, but u talking of having black clubs so that u can find people on ure level is rascist prejudiced and descriminatory.

If u were white id have u banned. /images/graemlins/wink.gif .

But seriously imagine that dorm was ure home town, and that dorm didnt have a black club. Then ud be pretty pissed, this is the situation im facing.

[Taraz]

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I got ure point about white clubs Taraz, but u talking of having black clubs so that u can find people on ure level is rascist prejudiced and descriminatory.

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Eh, I just mean that it's important to have an outlet for issues that the population at large can't relate to. This could be in the form of an ethnic club, the juggling club, the republican club, etc. I was just pointing out that the white club and the american club are about as broad as the entire population.

I think that these clubs should be allowed to exist. I'm just pointing out why people perceive these clubs to be "racist".

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But seriously imagine that dorm was ure home town, and that dorm didnt have a black club. Then ud be pretty pissed, this is the situation im facing.

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That was my home town. I explained this in a post in this thread. I was the only black kid in my grade in elementary school. That got expanded to four or five in middle school.

It's funny to me because you are basically describing the minority experience. You're acting like it's this huge outrageous thing, but that's what minorities deal with all the time. On a grander scale imagine your neighborhood was still mostly white, but your entire country was now mostly immigrants. How would that make you feel? Yes, it sucks, but you learn to live with it.

[Xylem]

The difference with ure situation though was that it was sort of the norm and so there were policies and discourses in existence that would help u adapt.

For me its, as far as i can see an unheard of and not to be spoken of phenomenon.

[Wubbie075]

Why is it though, that people feel this overwhelming need to associate with only their own kind?? I've been a member of ethnic clubs, but none of them were focused any of my own actual ethnicities. When I lived in a black/latin area and attended a black/latin school, I did not scour the campus looking for other white people, I *gasp* socialized with ppl who are not my race. My nickname, Wubbie, actually derives from my nickname in my fraternity, which is Wonderbread. I got that for being the only white person in my pledge class.

People seek to spend time only with their own kind and then wonder why other groups do not understand them and their issues.

[Taraz]

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Why is it though, that people feel this overwhelming need to associate with only their own kind?? I've been a member of ethnic clubs, but none of them were focused any of my own actual ethnicities. When I lived in a black/latin area and attended a black/latin school, I did not scour the campus looking for other white people, I *gasp* socialized with ppl who are not my race. My nickname, Wubbie, actually derives from my nickname in my fraternity, which is Wonderbread. I got that for being the only white person in my pledge class.

People seek to spend time only with their own kind and then wonder why other groups do not understand them and their issues.

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I dunno, it's different for everybody. I think it's mostly a culture shock thing for most people. It's like a fallback comfort if you're having trouble relating to your peers. I mean, your ethnicity does shape your viewpoint and people like hanging out with people who share their same viewpoint.

I'm actually really against the idea of only surrounding yourself with people who are like you. I think ethnic clubs/houses at colleges serve a purpose, but I think it's a little close-minded to not seek wider circles of friends.