Online poker, and unpaid student loans…

[jackaaron]

In the not too distant future, there is going to be an enormous spike in the number of student loans not being paid off as a result of so many college kids that used student loans to fund their accounts (and of course lost that money).

Is this true, or false?

If true, what ramifications does this have on the poker industry (I put this in legislation mostly because of the possible political ramifications)?

I realize that, every year, many students default on their loans. But, take those people, and add to them poker players that could easily borrow as much as 20k or more extra (over four years) over top of money they use for tuition and books, they then lose that money, and not have a way of paying it back.

My main point for asking is I have an acquaintance that pretty much did just what I speak of. And, he told me he got the idea from a host of other dudes that lost everything. I knew people were using inheritance, but I hadn’t thought about all the student loans that someone in college could use.

[bekman]

This stuff happens all the time. People are not smart enough to limit their losses. When some default on their student loans and stop playing, others will come along. This may or may not lead to problems with government loan repayments, but if I know one thing, it is that the gvmt knows how to get money back, so I doubt there will be any problems with legislation because of this. But, everything is speculation and the antipoker advocates will use anything they can.

[DavidNB]

The problem isn't student loans its really X number of poker players are losers and they get there money from a number of different sources as stated. Its no different then someone using their line of credit to fund poker playing.

If anything, it gives the pro legislation side more fuel to stop on line poker or try to limit it.

[questions]

Technically, I think the terms of student loans are such that you promise to use the proceeds for expenses related only to room, board and school expenses, and nothing else. I know people are going to say, "ha, ha, tell me another one," but a promise to use loan proceeds only for purposes for which they are designated is like promising to repay the loan - the value of your word to do something. Student loans have been abused for as long as there have been student loans. Nothing new in that.

[Stephen H]

I'm a little confused as to what you think students normally do with the loans that they still have the money to pay it back at the end.
Student loans are spent. Spend it on tuiton, spend it on books, spend it on poker, spend it on eating out every night of the year - at the end of the day, you have no money.
So how are student loans paid back? By the student getting a job and paying them back slowly over the years. Are these college kids who are losing at online poker somehow less likely to get a job after college than college students who don't lose money at online poker? I don't see any reason to believe that.

So the real issue here is, how well are student loans regulated? I'm pretty sure playing poker is the least of the problems for mis-spent loan money.

[Mendacious]

Student loans are a scary thing. The schools and loan companies make it ridiculously easy for students to borrow large sums of money-- often much more than they need or can repay. And, most students simply have no real concept of how difficult it can be to repay the $100k+ they are able to borrow. I am not sure how the gambling community should address this, but it is all too obvious that a HUGE percentage of the online gambling occurring is done by "kids" in college, and obviously a good number of them receive federal loans.

Personally I would consider making it a term of the Federally guaranteed loan agreements that the borrower not engage in online gambling subject to some pretty harsh if not criminal penalties for violating this agreement. And I would extend that until the person begins repayment of the loans.

It is incredibly immoral and harmful to society for anyone to convert a program which is not only intended for one's own, but future generations education to bankroll their gambling.

[Colonel Kataffy]

This should be a non-issue. Whether you play poker or you spend your extra loan money on pizza and beer, you still have to pay it back once schools over.

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
Personally I would consider making it a term of the Federally guaranteed loan agreements that the borrower not engage in online gambling subject to some pretty harsh if not criminal penalties for violating this agreement. And I would extend that until the person begins repayment of the loans.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree. Also anyone receiving a student loan should be barred from spending money on all other forms of gambling, drinking, smoking, fast food, pretty girls, vacations, ...

When you borrow money from the Government they should own you.

[TheEngineer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Personally I would consider making it a term of the Federally guaranteed loan agreements that the borrower not engage in online gambling subject to some pretty harsh if not criminal penalties for violating this agreement. And I would extend that until the person begins repayment of the loans.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree. Also anyone receiving a student loan should be barred from spending money on all other forms of gambling, drinking, smoking, fast food, pretty girls, vacations, ...

When you borrow money from the Government they should own you.

[/ QUOTE ]

They should also post federal marshalls outside of student loan recipients' dorms to ensure said students don't stay out too late, and to ensure they're in class on time. They can also ensure recipients don't attempt to go to Vegas. After all, adults cannot be trusted to make their own decisions. Government should do that. Just ask Stalin, Mao, or Kyl.

[DrewOnTilt]

[ QUOTE ]
Student loans are a scary thing. The schools and loan companies make it ridiculously easy for students to borrow large sums of money-- often much more than they need or can repay. And, most students simply have no real concept of how difficult it can be to repay the $100k+ they are able to borrow. I am not sure how the gambling community should address this, but it is all too obvious that a HUGE percentage of the online gambling occurring is done by "kids" in college, and obviously a good number of them receive federal loans.

Personally I would consider making it a term of the Federally guaranteed loan agreements that the borrower not engage in online gambling subject to some pretty harsh if not criminal penalties for violating this agreement. And I would extend that until the person begins repayment of the loans.

It is incredibly immoral and harmful to society for anyone to convert a program which is not only intended for one's own, but future generations education to bankroll their gambling.

[/ QUOTE ]

The whole point of a student loan is to help the student pay for tuition and expenses. Some of those expenses - food, clothing, etc - are not always covered by the tuition. The student loans are applied to the tuition bill, and the overage is refunded to the student, who presumably uses the vast majority of the funds to pay for living expenses. How else should it be done? Loans don't come with a financial baby-sitter.

[jackaaron]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Personally I would consider making it a term of the Federally guaranteed loan agreements that the borrower not engage in online gambling subject to some pretty harsh if not criminal penalties for violating this agreement. And I would extend that until the person begins repayment of the loans.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree. Also anyone receiving a student loan should be barred from spending money on all other forms of gambling, drinking, smoking, fast food, pretty girls, vacations, ...

When you borrow money from the Government they should own you.

[/ QUOTE ]

They should also post federal marshalls outside of student loan recipients' dorms to ensure said students don't stay out too late, and to ensure they're in class on time. They can also ensure recipients don't attempt to go to Vegas. After all, adults cannot be trusted to make their own decisions. Government should do that. Just ask Stalin, Mao, or Kyl.

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't specifically for the post I'm quoting, but I hope that my orig post isn't meant to be a dig at college students using loans for poker.

I really was just wondering about the repercussions over the next several years.

I realize that those same students could be using the money for other things entirely if online poker didn't exist.

But, when a fun trend emerges (such as online poker), I think that you have not only the students that would normally use student loans for things other than tuition, books, rent, BUT a large group of people borrowing for online poker ADDED ON to that first group.

We're not talking like a few thousand...most of us know that you can get additional loans over the course of your 4 years that total more than 20k (maybe more), and that's completely separate from your tuition, books, etc. loans. I'm not talking overage here.

[CountingMyOuts]

[ QUOTE ]
Student loans are a scary thing. The schools and loan companies make it ridiculously easy for students to borrow large sums of money-- often much more than they need or can repay. And, most students simply have no real concept of how difficult it can be to repay the $100k+ they are able to borrow. I am not sure how the gambling community should address this, but it is all too obvious that a HUGE percentage of the online gambling occurring is done by "kids" in college, and obviously a good number of them receive federal loans.

Personally I would consider making it a term of the Federally guaranteed loan agreements that the borrower not engage in online gambling subject to some pretty harsh if not criminal penalties for violating this agreement. And I would extend that until the person begins repayment of the loans.

It is incredibly immoral and harmful to society for anyone to convert a program which is not only intended for one's own, but future generations education to bankroll their gambling.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is people like YOU that are the precise reason why the UIGEA was formulated, prohibition of alcohol was attempted, etc,. etc.

It should not be the government's role to be a nanny state. We all should be responsible for own actions.

[Mendacious]

[ QUOTE ]


Quote:
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Student loans are a scary thing. The schools and loan companies make it ridiculously easy for students to borrow large sums of money-- often much more than they need or can repay. And, most students simply have no real concept of how difficult it can be to repay the $100k+ they are able to borrow. I am not sure how the gambling community should address this, but it is all too obvious that a HUGE percentage of the online gambling occurring is done by "kids" in college, and obviously a good number of them receive federal loans.

Personally I would consider making it a term of the Federally guaranteed loan agreements that the borrower not engage in online gambling subject to some pretty harsh if not criminal penalties for violating this agreement. And I would extend that until the person begins repayment of the loans.

It is incredibly immoral and harmful to society for anyone to convert a program which is not only intended for one's own, but future generations education to bankroll their gambling.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



It is people like YOU that are the precise reason why the UIGEA was formulated, prohibition of alcohol was attempted, etc,. etc.

It should not be the government's role to be a nanny state. We all should be responsible for own actions.




[/ QUOTE ]

You sound like one of those morons that thinks that thinks that the First Amendment applies to non-governmental censorship. There is a huge difference between prohibition, entitlement and a loan contract.

Let me be clear, I am practically libertarian as far as governmental interference is concerned. But what you have here is the Goverment through its power to tax setting up a program to benefit society as a whole by making education available to those who otherwise could not afford it.

Using student loans to gamble is indefenseable. You want to gamble, fine, just don't do it with tax-payer money earmarked for education. Using this money for gambling is tantamount to fraud, and is no different than misappropriating any other type of funding-- for which there are criminal consequences. It has nothing to do with being a Nanny state, or being responsible for oneself. It is about misappropriating money and putting a program at risk that is for the education of others.

Not only does the government have EVERY right to take steps to see that the money it is lending for education gets USED for education, in the face of evidence that it is NOT being used for education, it has a responsibility to protect the taxpayers and the future generations that this program is intended to benefit.

Frankly, gambling with borrowed money where the lender believes the money is being lent for some other purpose is about as unethical as it gets. I don't think anyone at 2+2, which is a site for responsible gamblers, should be condoning it.

You can quibble all you want about whether the Gov. can realistically police this, (and I might agree) but don't try to pass off gambling with the Gov.s' education loans as something that the Gov. has no business interfering with.

[hugheser]

I work at a university and used to employ lots of students. Most of them blew their refund checks on alcohol, partying, drugs, computers, video game systems, and home theaters. One guy I know bought a motorcycle. Others load up their credit cards and have thousands of dollars of high interest debt. I think the fact that some chose to gamble with their money isn't the issue.

[Mendacious]

[ QUOTE ]
They should also post federal marshalls outside of student loan recipients' dorms to ensure said students don't stay out too late, and to ensure they're in class on time. They can also ensure recipients don't attempt to go to Vegas. After all, adults cannot be trusted to make their own decisions. Government should do that. Just ask Stalin, Mao, or Kyl.

[/ QUOTE ]

Or maybe they should just forego the loan contract altogether and just give away all the money to anyone for any reason.

Frankly Engineer, I thought you were a little smarter. My impression is that those (and I count myself as one) who are fighting to repeal UIGEA, or work towards exempting poker are trying to make the case that the government should not interfere with people's rights to gamble RESPONSIBLY. To that end, I would expect that we would also want to protect minors from gambling by setting age limits and demanding a form of age verification, or is that too Stalinist for you.

Using loaned education money is defacto NOT responsible gambling. It would be pretty stupid and irresponsible to ignore this as an issue if in fact it is prevelant.

As for Stalin etc. They have no place in this dialogue. You are talking about a government LOAN program, not human rights. People put morality clauses in contracts all the time to protect their investment. The Gov. has no less right to contract for this than anyone else. Moreover, no one has the "right" to convert taxpayer money to their personal gambling bankroll.

[Mendacious]

[ QUOTE ]
I work at a university and used to employ lots of students. Most of them blew their refund checks on alcohol, partying, drugs, computers, video game systems, and home theaters. One guy I know bought a motorcycle. Others load up their credit cards and have thousands of dollars of high interest debt. I think the fact that some chose to gamble with their money isn't the issue

[/ QUOTE ]

Granted, typically a certain percentage of loan money always goes to things that run contrary to the purpose of the loans. I am not sure that is a good thing, but it is probably a necessary byproduct of making the money available. I think the relevant question is whether gambling with student loan money has reached a point where it is creating a problem which jeopardizes the program or the borrower's futures. If that were to be the case, I would expect the government to respond. I don't know that to be the case though-- which is why in my OP I said "I would consider" making no gambling a provision of the loan agreement.

[jackaaron]

I guess I’m just not wanting to see (in the midst of poker trying to become more credible for various reasons) some story on the news taking ten random students who have over 75k in college loans in default that they can’t pay back, and like 30k of that is on poker alone. This has nothing to do with governments taking our freedoms, and so on. It has to do with poker trying to become more credible, and the things that will make that credibility more difficult to attain.

I can hear these interviewees now:

“I started off small, and just put five thousand on. All my friends were doing it. Two weeks later, I have nothing.”

“When the student loan counselor told me that I could get an additional, substantial student loan outside of the ones I currently had, I jumped at the chance to put it online, and turn it into six figures. Two months later, it was all gone, and I realized I would never be able to pay it off.”

You get the picture…

[questions]

[ QUOTE ]
I guess I’m just not wanting to see ...
You get the picture…

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's cross that bridge when we come to it. Until then, let's stop imitating countries like Saudi Arabia or China.

[hugheser]

I really don't see how some using it for gambling is relevant. It's obviously not a good thing to do. It's incredibly irresponsible and poor money management. But it's not different than wasting it on other unnecessary toys.

I also don't see how the government can regulate it. The students get a check and they deposit it into their bank accounts. The government has no clue about what happens to it afterwards. They may use it to pay rent or use it to buy an HDTV. How would anyone know if the $1000 they deposited into FTP came from the refund check or other money they have. What is the solution? Making it illegal to gamble until you've paid off your loans?

Remember the government and corporations make money off of giving out loans. You pay interest on them. I don't see how people gambling with their loan money is going to hurt the program. They still have to pay off the money and the people in charge get their interest.

[Uglyowl]

I understand the potential for the problem, but isn’t the real issue the amount of money being made available to college kids not the “evils of society” vying for their dollar whether it is strippers, alcohol, cigarettes, plasma TV’s, fancy cars, big party houses, poker, etc.?

[Mendacious]

[ QUOTE ]
I guess I’m just not wanting to see (in the midst of poker trying to become more credible for various reasons) some story on the news taking ten random students who have over 75k in college loans in default that they can’t pay back, and like 30k of that is on poker alone. This has nothing to do with governments taking our freedoms, and so on. It has to do with poker trying to become more credible, and the things that will make that credibility more difficult to attain.


[/ QUOTE ]

This really is the point. These are made up numbers, but I think 15% of the public hates gambling, 15% love gambling, and 70% are mostly ambivilant towards RESPONSIBLE gambling.

The battle going on really is to persuade the middle that our side is correct. To that end, we have the argument and bias of American's towards personal freedom. On the other side, there is the picture of IRRESPONSIBLE gambling and its consequences.

To that extent that we can demonstrate that gambling can be allowed to be readily available (at the push of a button) we have to be able to demonstrate that the scourge of irresponsible gambling will not become too great a burden.

For that reason, sites voluntarily set deposit limits, age limits etc., to combat the fear that they are preying on the overly vulnerable with the gravest of consequences. see "click a mouse, lose your house". It pays to be proactive on these types of issues.

By the same token, t would not be a good thing if people converting student loans to gambling bankrolls became a problem. Notwithstanding the fact that college students "know everything", they are young people with virtually no money management experience who are MOST prone to addicition. It would be much better to deal with this proactively then to let it become a great weapon for the anti-gambling crowd.

[Mendacious]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I guess I’m just not wanting to see ...
You get the picture…

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's cross that bridge when we come to it. Until then, let's stop imitating countries like Saudi Arabia or China.

[/ QUOTE ]

We crossed that bridge in October. We now are trying to persuade the general public to care enough to allow us back to the other side.

[Mendacious]

[ QUOTE ]
Remember the government and corporations make money off of giving out loans. You pay interest on them. I don't see how people gambling with their loan money is going to hurt the program. They still have to pay off the money and the people in charge get their interest.


[/ QUOTE ]

If I thought the student loan program was self-sustaining I would agree. But my impression is that this is a money drain program for the Gov. due to defaults on these loans.

I'm not looking to "fix" the student loan program, I am concerned about any failures of the student loan program being used as a weapon against gambling. Based on the prevelence of onine poker in college, this strikes me as a viable concern.

[75s]

The soloution seems really easy to me. Have lenders work with schools so the money is only spent on tuition, meal cards and books.

[Mendacious]

[ QUOTE ]
The soloution seems really easy to me. Have lenders work with schools so the money is only spent on tuition, meal cards and books.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, much better, obviously we just allow Party and Stars to act as guarantor on student loans of those who wish to gamble with the money. Problem solved!

[jackaaron]

[ QUOTE ]
I really don't see how some using it for gambling is relevant. It's obviously not a good thing to do. It's incredibly irresponsible and poor money management. But it's not different than wasting it on other unnecessary toys.

I also don't see how the government can regulate it. The students get a check and they deposit it into their bank accounts. The government has no clue about what happens to it afterwards. They may use it to pay rent or use it to buy an HDTV. How would anyone know if the $1000 they deposited into FTP came from the refund check or other money they have. What is the solution? Making it illegal to gamble until you've paid off your loans?

Remember the government and corporations make money off of giving out loans. You pay interest on them. I don't see how people gambling with their loan money is going to hurt the program. They still have to pay off the money and the people in charge get their interest.

[/ QUOTE ]

This whole post was about 'unpaid' student loans, there being more of them than usual, the correlation that has to poker, and the impact it has on online poker proponents. I never said anything about people paying off the loans at any point.

[questions]

[ QUOTE ]
This whole post was about 'unpaid' student loans, there being more of them than usual, the correlation that has to poker, and the impact it has on online poker proponents.

[/ QUOTE ]

I haven't seen any stats showing that student loan delinquencies are up, but even if true, first, the economy is not all that great. Second, how can you possibly correlate delinquencies with online poker, for crying out loud? Do you know how many people have loans and how much money is outstanding? It must be tens or hundreds of billions.

[TheEngineer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
They should also post federal marshalls outside of student loan recipients' dorms to ensure said students don't stay out too late, and to ensure they're in class on time. They can also ensure recipients don't attempt to go to Vegas. After all, adults cannot be trusted to make their own decisions. Government should do that. Just ask Stalin, Mao, or Kyl.

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't specifically for the post I'm quoting, but I hope that my orig post isn't meant to be a dig at college students using loans for poker.

I really was just wondering about the repercussions over the next several years.

I realize that those same students could be using the money for other things entirely if online poker didn't exist.

But, when a fun trend emerges (such as online poker), I think that you have not only the students that would normally use student loans for things other than tuition, books, rent, BUT a large group of people borrowing for online poker ADDED ON to that first group.

We're not talking like a few thousand...most of us know that you can get additional loans over the course of your 4 years that total more than 20k (maybe more), and that's completely separate from your tuition, books, etc. loans. I'm not talking overage here.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a free country, and college students are adults. They borrowed money and they have an obligation to repay it.

I fail to see the significance of your post. This is the Legislation forum. Are you proposing legislation to control how college students spend their loans? I don't think you'll find any support here (at least not from me) for adding to the government nanny state. I have no problem with adding a clause to the loan contract stipulating that the money won't be spent on illegal drugs, gambling, alcohol, prostitutes, or other items but, like UIGEA, this is just a feel-good measure.

Cheers.

[TheEngineer]

[ QUOTE ]
Or maybe they should just forego the loan contract altogether and just give away all the money to anyone for any reason.

[/ QUOTE ]

Loans are made semester-by-semester. They are dependent on the student staying current on bills and on passing classes. That's the ONLY interest government should have in the matter, IMHO.

If students gamble it away, they'll only hurt themselves, as they will have to repay their loans with interest. The system protects itself without demanding students account for every dime.

[ QUOTE ]
Frankly Engineer, I thought you were a little smarter.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now you're going to insult people who disagree with you? Frankly, you sound like one of the prohibitionists, arguing that adult college students cannot control themselves, and therefore require the federal government to do it for them. Sorry, but if they're old enough to die in Iraq, then they're old enough to handle their loans.


[ QUOTE ]
It would be pretty stupid and irresponsible to ignore this as an issue if in fact it is prevelant.

[/ QUOTE ]

You sure do like to call people stupid. Also, you're using a Spencer Bachus-type argument in that you state the worst case, with no evidence of it being an issue, then put the onus on us to show that it is or isn't an issue.

[TheEngineer]

This question isn't about gambling, per se. Rather, it's about how students spend their student loans. After all, there are many irresponsible ways to spend money.

I think there are two choices. Either leave them alone and treat them as adults, or provide a list of things they're allowed to purchase with the money and have them turn in forms, like a business trip expense form. They could have debit cards issued specifically for this. I favor the first option, but I have no dog in this hunt.

Why are we discussing this? Even Kyl hasn't mentioned issues with gambling with student loans.

[CountingMyOuts]

[ QUOTE ]
You sound like one of those morons that thinks that thinks that the First Amendment applies to non-governmental censorship. There is a huge difference between prohibition, entitlement and a loan contract.

Let me be clear, I am practically libertarian as far as governmental interference is concerned. But what you have here is the Goverment through its power to tax setting up a program to benefit society as a whole by making education available to those who otherwise could not afford it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Practically libertarian? Based on your response, I guess it's code for "dime store" libertarian.

Would a libertarian want to spend even more tax dollars policing college students and how they use their student loans? I don't think so.

[ QUOTE ]
Using student loans to gamble is indefenseable. You want to gamble, fine, just don't do it with tax-payer money earmarked for education. Using this money for gambling is tantamount to fraud, and is no different than misappropriating any other type of funding-- for which there are criminal consequences. It has nothing to do with being a Nanny state, or being responsible for oneself. It is about misappropriating money and putting a program at risk that is for the education of others.

[/ QUOTE ]

Did I try to defend college students spending their loans on gambling (or anything else other than the intended college expenses)?

Using college student loans for gambling has everything to do with being responsible for oneself. If you default on your loans because you gambled them away, then you pay the price.

College students are adults, like it or not. If they default on their loans, then they should be held responsible for their actions. Just don't spend my tax dollars policing them after they sign the papers and receive the loan money.

[ QUOTE ]
Not only does the government have EVERY right to take steps to see that the money it is lending for education gets USED for education, in the face of evidence that it is NOT being used for education, it has a responsibility to protect the taxpayers and the future generations that this program is intended to benefit.

[/ QUOTE ]

In the face of what evidence? Do you have statistics to back up this claim?

Again, don't spend my tax dollars policing these adults for every possible of misuse of their loans.

[ QUOTE ]
Frankly, gambling with borrowed money where the lender believes the money is being lent for some other purpose is about as unethical as it gets. I don't think anyone at 2+2, which is a site for responsible gamblers, should be condoning it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see where I said I condone college students using the loans for their online poker pursuits. I don't condone it and yes, it is unethical.

Still, they are adults. They are responsible for their decisions and their actions. Don't use my tax dollars to police them.

[ QUOTE ]
You can quibble all you want about whether the Gov. can realistically police this, (and I might agree) but don't try to pass off gambling with the Gov.s' education loans as something that the Gov. has no business interfering with.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not going to quibble about how realistic their ability is to police this, because it's not realistic.

However, if you want to make sure college students aren't gambling away their student loans, you may as well start making sure they are not using their loan money at bars, carryouts, strip joints, tobacco shops, internet porn for pay, etc. Spending the loan money on the activities is no less ethical. When does the policing end?

[Mendacious]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I fail to see the significance of your post. This is the Legislation forum. Are you proposing legislation to control how college students spend their loans? I don't think you'll find any support here (at least not from me) for adding to the government nanny state. I have no problem with adding a clause to the loan contract stipulating that the money won't be spent on illegal drugs, gambling, alcohol, prostitutes, or other items but, like UIGEA, this is just a feel-good measure.

Cheers.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, that is pretty much what I was saying-- assuming OP's comments about loan defaults is true.

[Mendacious]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Or maybe they should just forego the loan contract altogether and just give away all the money to anyone for any reason.

[/ QUOTE ]

Loans are made semester-by-semester. They are dependent on the student staying current on bills and on passing classes. That's the ONLY interest government should have in the matter, IMHO.

[/ QUOTE ]


Not so sure about staying current on bills, that would be news to me, but in any event, that is short-sighted. These loans have to be self-sustaining over time. To the extent that the default rate goes up, it harms the ability of the program to loan in the future.

[ QUOTE ]

If students gamble it away, they'll only hurt themselves, as they will have to repay their loans with interest. The system protects itself without demanding students account for every dime.

[/ QUOTE ]


Again, short-sighted, in order for the program to be viable, it is imperative that an excessive number of students do not default-- and politically speaking it is pretty significant that they not default because they are gambling away their loans.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Frankly Engineer, I thought you were a little smarter.

[/ QUOTE ]


Now you're going to insult people who disagree with you? Frankly, you sound like one of the prohibitionists, arguing that adult college students cannot control themselves, and therefore require the federal government to do it for them. Sorry, but if they're old enough to die in Iraq, then they're old enough to handle their loans.



[/ QUOTE ]


Pretty sure you started the insults Engineer with your sarcasm and totally inappropriate comparisons to Stalin etc.


[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It would be pretty stupid and irresponsible to ignore this as an issue if in fact it is prevelant.

[/ QUOTE ]

You sure do like to call people stupid. Also, you're using a Spencer Bachus-type argument in that you state the worst case, with no evidence of it being an issue, then put the onus on us to show that it is or isn't an issue.

[/ QUOTE ]



[/ QUOTE ]
Not really, I was responding to OP's original statement that this IS a problem. Assuming it is, I suggested it would be BAD for poker, and BAD for student loans generally, and should be addressed in the loan contract.

[TheEngineer]

[ QUOTE ]
Not really, I was responding to OP's original statement that this IS a problem. Assuming it is, I suggested it would be BAD for poker, and BAD for student loans generally, and should be addressed in the loan contract.

[/ QUOTE ]

If there were ever a need for such a thing, I'd have no problem with that, so long as the list of prohibited items includes other legal "moneywasters" and includes all gambling (not just Internet gambling), and so long as it contains no enforcement provisions. I don't see it happening, really. After all, student graduate with tons of credit card debt today.

[Mendacious]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Not really, I was responding to OP's original statement that this IS a problem. Assuming it is, I suggested it would be BAD for poker, and BAD for student loans generally, and should be addressed in the loan contract.

[/ QUOTE ]

Assuming this were put in, I would want to see enforcement POST default only.

If there were ever a need for such a thing, I'd have no problem with that, so long as the list of prohibited items includes other legal "moneywasters" and includes all gambling (not just Internet gambling), and so long as it contains no enforcement provisions. I don't see it happening, really. After all, student graduate with tons of credit card debt today.

[/ QUOTE ]

[jackaaron]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This whole post was about 'unpaid' student loans, there being more of them than usual, the correlation that has to poker, and the impact it has on online poker proponents.

[/ QUOTE ]

I haven't seen any stats showing that student loan delinquencies are up, but even if true, first, the economy is not all that great. Second, how can you possibly correlate delinquencies with online poker, for crying out loud? Do you know how many people have loans and how much money is outstanding? It must be tens or hundreds of billions.

[/ QUOTE ]

I never gave stats. I said, in the original posts, is this true, and if it’s true, what are the ramifications? I have seen a small sample of it, have others seen it, do you think it’s possible, if you think it’s possible, how does this impact our fight to legalize or regulate poker?

How do I correlate delinquencies with online poker…well, considering that my question was concerning people that borrowed additional student loans on top of the ones they use for tuition/books/rent/etc., I think there is at least some link there. And, I think that the news, whether they are right or wrong, would MOST CERTAINLY make that correlation, and that would most certainly hurt poker’s image in the eyes of non-poker players (and non-poker players are who we are trying to sway the opinion of).

I don’t see how you’ve included people that have loans for other things that don’t play poker when you say, “Do you know how many people have loans and how much money is outstanding?” I assume you’re talking about non-poker players who are not students, and who have borrowed for some other use, and not paid…that obviously has nothing to do with the original post.

[Mendacious]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You sound like one of those morons that thinks that thinks that the First Amendment applies to non-governmental censorship. There is a huge difference between prohibition, entitlement and a loan contract.

Let me be clear, I am practically libertarian as far as governmental interference is concerned. But what you have here is the Goverment through its power to tax setting up a program to benefit society as a whole by making education available to those who otherwise could not afford it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Practically libertarian? Based on your response, I guess it's code for "dime store" libertarian.

Would a libertarian want to spend even more tax dollars policing college students and how they use their student loans? I don't think so.

[ QUOTE ]
Using student loans to gamble is indefenseable. You want to gamble, fine, just don't do it with tax-payer money earmarked for education. Using this money for gambling is tantamount to fraud, and is no different than misappropriating any other type of funding-- for which there are criminal consequences. It has nothing to do with being a Nanny state, or being responsible for oneself. It is about misappropriating money and putting a program at risk that is for the education of others.

[/ QUOTE ]

Did I try to defend college students spending their loans on gambling (or anything else other than the intended college expenses)?

Using college student loans for gambling has everything to do with being responsible for oneself. If you default on your loans because you gambled them away, then you pay the price.

College students are adults, like it or not. If they default on their loans, then they should be held responsible for their actions. Just don't spend my tax dollars policing them after they sign the papers and receive the loan money.

[ QUOTE ]
Not only does the government have EVERY right to take steps to see that the money it is lending for education gets USED for education, in the face of evidence that it is NOT being used for education, it has a responsibility to protect the taxpayers and the future generations that this program is intended to benefit.

[/ QUOTE ]

In the face of what evidence? Do you have statistics to back up this claim?

Again, don't spend my tax dollars policing these adults for every possible of misuse of their loans.

[ QUOTE ]
Frankly, gambling with borrowed money where the lender believes the money is being lent for some other purpose is about as unethical as it gets. I don't think anyone at 2+2, which is a site for responsible gamblers, should be condoning it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see where I said I condone college students using the loans for their online poker pursuits. I don't condone it and yes, it is unethical.

Still, they are adults. They are responsible for their decisions and their actions. Don't use my tax dollars to police them.

[ QUOTE ]
You can quibble all you want about whether the Gov. can realistically police this, (and I might agree) but don't try to pass off gambling with the Gov.s' education loans as something that the Gov. has no business interfering with.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not going to quibble about how realistic their ability is to police this, because it's not realistic.

However, if you want to make sure college students aren't gambling away their student loans, you may as well start making sure they are not using their loan money at bars, carryouts, strip joints, tobacco shops, internet porn for pay, etc. Spending the loan money on the activities is no less ethical. When does the policing end?

[/ QUOTE ]

I never said anything about policing this whatsoever. What I am envisioning is the potential if this is a problem to put terms in the agreement that prohibit gambling, and penalties (perhaps even criminal) if the loan is defaulted and the money was spent on gambling. We can agree to disagree on whether that is appropriate, I simply proposed that it should be a consideration if the problem is bad enough.

PS I am libertarian as in I voted for Ed Clark.

[laeelin]

[ QUOTE ]
Is this true, or false?

[/ QUOTE ]

False.

People that would do this would have spent the money in other ways. Beer, Girls, Drugs, a widescreen HDTV, what diffrence does it make. Either way, the money is gone with nothing to show for it.

I'll never forget the day I walked into a gas station and overheard a conversation that the girl behind the counter was having with her friend (that also worked there)... It was payday and they both had just got paychecks. They cashed them at the bank next door and ran back to the gas station to decide which scratch off tickets they would spend it (all of it) on.

/sigh

Some people are stupid. Nothing to do about it. If you try to stop them it doesn't help. The only thing that will help them is growing up. The faster they grow up the less pain they will suffer. Using the goverment as a "mommy" makes that take more time, not less.

I believe the best thing that can happen to an addicted gambler is to run into a good pro that can take his money hand after hand. At least that way he has a chance of realiseing he needs help.

And either way he will lose the money

[jackaaron]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
They should also post federal marshalls outside of student loan recipients' dorms to ensure said students don't stay out too late, and to ensure they're in class on time. They can also ensure recipients don't attempt to go to Vegas. After all, adults cannot be trusted to make their own decisions. Government should do that. Just ask Stalin, Mao, or Kyl.

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't specifically for the post I'm quoting, but I hope that my orig post isn't meant to be a dig at college students using loans for poker.

I really was just wondering about the repercussions over the next several years.

I realize that those same students could be using the money for other things entirely if online poker didn't exist.

But, when a fun trend emerges (such as online poker), I think that you have not only the students that would normally use student loans for things other than tuition, books, rent, BUT a large group of people borrowing for online poker ADDED ON to that first group.

We're not talking like a few thousand...most of us know that you can get additional loans over the course of your 4 years that total more than 20k (maybe more), and that's completely separate from your tuition, books, etc. loans. I'm not talking overage here.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a free country, and college students are adults. They borrowed money and they have an obligation to repay it.

I fail to see the significance of your post. This is the Legislation forum. Are you proposing legislation to control how college students spend their loans? I don't think you'll find any support here (at least not from me) for adding to the government nanny state. I have no problem with adding a clause to the loan contract stipulating that the money won't be spent on illegal drugs, gambling, alcohol, prostitutes, or other items but, like UIGEA, this is just a feel-good measure.

Cheers.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that this is a free country, and college students are adults. They can borrow, and they can do whatever they want.

That is completely missing the point of the discussion.

Aren’t we trying to better poker’s image?

I’m merely wondering what ramifications could arise as a result of the situation I described, I’m not asking for a police state…lol.

You are correct, this is the legislation forum. In it, we could possibly talk about things that could affect/enact/reverse/etc legislation. Could the situation I described have ramifications with regard to new or old legislation? If not, then obviously someone would say, “Jack, I see that this could possibly be a problem based on your very small sample, however, I don’t think this will affect our current efforts to better the image of online poker because of the following points…”

Sorry for the template, I probably just don't make my original posts very clear (with regard to my intention), and as a result, I have to explain what I'm trying to get at over and over. I promise to work at that over time. Maybe I'll get an English degree or something, and get a little extra for my Stars account /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[jackaaron]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Is this true, or false?

[/ QUOTE ]

False.

People that would do this would have spent the money in other ways. Beer, Girls, Drugs, a widescreen HDTV, what diffrence does it make. Either way, the money is gone with nothing to show for it.

I'll never forget the day I walked into a gas station and overheard a conversation that the girl behind the counter was having with her friend (that also worked there)... It was payday and they both had just got paychecks. They cashed them at the bank next door and ran back to the gas station to decide which scratch off tickets they would spend it (all of it) on.

/sigh

Some people are stupid. Nothing to do about it. If you try to stop them it doesn't help. The only thing that will help them is growing up. The faster they grow up the less pain they will suffer. Using the goverment as a "mommy" makes that take more time, not less.

I believe the best thing that can happen to an addicted gambler is to run into a good pro that can take his money hand after hand. At least that way he has a chance of realiseing he needs help.

And either way he will lose the money

[/ QUOTE ]

Excellent. Thank you for your opinion.

[jackaaron]

One other thing on this, just to be totally clear. When you're a student, you get all of your regular loans, pay off your tuition and books, and have some left over for maybe rent, clothes, whatever. I'm not talking about that money. Once a year, you are eligible for an additional, fairly large, loan. For example, maybe you're wanting to get a very nice computer set up, or lap top because you think that will help you in your studies, and you don't have one now. Anyhow, this once a year loan is fairly large, and is just added on to what you'll be paying later on.

[CountingMyOuts]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You sound like one of those morons that thinks that thinks that the First Amendment applies to non-governmental censorship. There is a huge difference between prohibition, entitlement and a loan contract.

Let me be clear, I am practically libertarian as far as governmental interference is concerned. But what you have here is the Goverment through its power to tax setting up a program to benefit society as a whole by making education available to those who otherwise could not afford it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Practically libertarian? Based on your response, I guess it's code for "dime store" libertarian.

Would a libertarian want to spend even more tax dollars policing college students and how they use their student loans? I don't think so.

[ QUOTE ]
Using student loans to gamble is indefenseable. You want to gamble, fine, just don't do it with tax-payer money earmarked for education. Using this money for gambling is tantamount to fraud, and is no different than misappropriating any other type of funding-- for which there are criminal consequences. It has nothing to do with being a Nanny state, or being responsible for oneself. It is about misappropriating money and putting a program at risk that is for the education of others.

[/ QUOTE ]

Did I try to defend college students spending their loans on gambling (or anything else other than the intended college expenses)?

Using college student loans for gambling has everything to do with being responsible for oneself. If you default on your loans because you gambled them away, then you pay the price.

College students are adults, like it or not. If they default on their loans, then they should be held responsible for their actions. Just don't spend my tax dollars policing them after they sign the papers and receive the loan money.

[ QUOTE ]
Not only does the government have EVERY right to take steps to see that the money it is lending for education gets USED for education, in the face of evidence that it is NOT being used for education, it has a responsibility to protect the taxpayers and the future generations that this program is intended to benefit.

[/ QUOTE ]

In the face of what evidence? Do you have statistics to back up this claim?

Again, don't spend my tax dollars policing these adults for every possible of misuse of their loans.

[ QUOTE ]
Frankly, gambling with borrowed money where the lender believes the money is being lent for some other purpose is about as unethical as it gets. I don't think anyone at 2+2, which is a site for responsible gamblers, should be condoning it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see where I said I condone college students using the loans for their online poker pursuits. I don't condone it and yes, it is unethical.

Still, they are adults. They are responsible for their decisions and their actions. Don't use my tax dollars to police them.

[ QUOTE ]
You can quibble all you want about whether the Gov. can realistically police this, (and I might agree) but don't try to pass off gambling with the Gov.s' education loans as something that the Gov. has no business interfering with.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not going to quibble about how realistic their ability is to police this, because it's not realistic.

However, if you want to make sure college students aren't gambling away their student loans, you may as well start making sure they are not using their loan money at bars, carryouts, strip joints, tobacco shops, internet porn for pay, etc. Spending the loan money on the activities is no less ethical. When does the policing end?

[/ QUOTE ]

I never said anything about policing this whatsoever. What I am envisioning is the potential if this is a problem to put terms in the agreement that prohibit gambling, and penalties (perhaps even criminal) if the loan is defaulted and the money was spent on gambling. We can agree to disagree on whether that is appropriate, I simply proposed that it should be a consideration if the problem is bad enough.

PS I am libertarian as in I voted for Ed Clark.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[sethypooh21]

[ QUOTE ]
If I thought the student loan program was self-sustaining I would agree. But my impression is that this is a money drain program for the Gov. due to defaults on these loans.

[/ QUOTE ]

Semi-grunch, but LOL at this (and since this is politics forum material anyway, the program would be much less of a drain if the "free-marketeers" hadn't ensured that private middlement got their cut of as many loans as possible. How it is supposed to work is fed lends student money at X% over prime - how it actually works in all too many cases is fed lends private company money at (X-y)% over prime and private company lends to student at (x-y)+z% over prime, using some of that money on kickbacks to loan officers to choose the private lender over the cheaper fed program.

But sure, the problem is that college students spend their money on dumb things... OH NOES!

[MiltonFriedman]

" ... not have a way of paying it back."

Why can't the borrowers get a job and pay it back ? Payment/financing terms on Student Loans are not very onerous. It is not like they owe $150,000 to My Cousin Vinnie.

[MiltonFriedman]

"It is incredibly immoral and harmful to society for anyone to convert a program which is not only intended for one's own, but future generations education to bankroll their gambling. "

Which party is guaranteed against risk ?

PUHLEEEZE, get off the high horse there. It IS incredibly immoral for lenders and schools, which are businesses, to over extend credit KNOWING that defaults can be dumped on Uncle Sam.

If you want to have market discipline, STOP subsidizing poor lending practices for years on end.

[MiltonFriedman]

So, for how many student loans would you have the government insure lenders against risk of default ?

[MiltonFriedman]

"I think the relevant question is whether gambling with student loan money has reached a point where it is creating a problem which jeopardizes the program or the borrower's futures."

Compared to the effect of poor lending practices and government insurance against virtually ANY lender or school risk ? Which do you really think is a bigger problem ?

[Mendacious]

[ QUOTE ]
"I think the relevant question is whether gambling with student loan money has reached a point where it is creating a problem which jeopardizes the program or the borrower's futures."

Compared to the effect of poor lending practices and government insurance against virtually ANY lender or school risk ? Which do you really think is a bigger problem ?

[/ QUOTE ]

I couldn't agree more, but I think what OP was driving at, and my point as well is that it would be a bad thing if online gambling became and easy scapegoat for Student Loan default. People will turn a blind eye towards all the crappy lending practices if they can simply point to online gaming and say-- "see, I told you so"!