Peeling gutshots with backdoor flushes as a float/disguise?

[cubase]

I was wondering if you winning players ever do something along these lines.

For the sake of this hypothetical situation, let us suppose a LAGish player who is very aggressive after the flop with air, TPNK, TPGK, 2PTK, etc raises to 4-5BB. You both are 100BB deep.

You sit on the button with 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif.

You make the call and see a flop of:
5 /images/graemlins/club.gif 6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif A /images/graemlins/heart.gif

The LAG leads out for about 3/4 pot.

Is this a type of hand you peel of a turn to see if you can catch the gutshot or pick up the flush draw?

I guess my thinking here is, this is a great hand to float with. If he checks the turn we can pop it. If we pick up the flush draw on the turn and he has checked to us we can also bet at it. Obviously if we hit the gutshot, or pick up the flush draw we can do all sorts of interesting things like raise him if he weak-leads the turn.

I'm just munching lunch here @ work and was thinking about this. It's a situation I've seen the donks play (though I imagine they didn't think about much more than the fact that they have a straight draw, and hey look I picked up hearts, and hey look I hit my flush). The neat thing is, they get paid well when they hit because their hand is very well disguised.

I'm curious if there is anything to this... turning this type of holding/flop into a float play where we can run ourselves into the nuts and get well paid on a well disguised hand, choose to raise/lead with it on the turn against a check or a weak lead to take the pot away (with outs, if we get called), etc.

-EV?

Remotely interesting?

Does anything change your answer if we are 200BB deep? 300BB deep?

Again, just some random lunch thoughts...

Edit: Minor grammar edits.

[jonyy6788]

calling is standard if you're going to fire a shell at him on the turn

[Waingro]

I think if you call pf with 89s you have to put in money in spots like this. I like a call, bet turn line.

[Fiksdal]

float seems fine here, especially if he is the type who can find folds

3bet preflop is a lot better than flat calling though

[C4LL4W4Y]

2-300 bbs deep I'm more inclined to 3b pre.

[cubase]

[ QUOTE ]
float seems fine here, especially if he is the type who can find folds

3bet preflop is a lot better than flat calling though

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you elaborate on the "is a lot better" part? Is that simply so we can take control of the hand? Is it for FE pre-flop if we haven't been getting out of line? Etc?

[ama0330]

its basically just floating with outs, if you feel like the float is gonna work, its just extra insurance. note that if you are calling purely to hit your draw and you dont plan to take the pot away or attack it somehow then this is a bad move.

[ocdscale]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
float seems fine here, especially if he is the type who can find folds

3bet preflop is a lot better than flat calling though

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you elaborate on the "is a lot better" part? Is that simply so we can take control of the hand? Is it for FE pre-flop if we haven't been getting out of line? Etc?

[/ QUOTE ]

At these levels, 3-betting narrows your range to something like JJ+, AQ+ to villain, giving you a lot more credit for cbets/floats.
Also, calling a 3-bet narrows villains range considerably.

3-betting 'light' (with SCs like this hand) isn't something you should be doing all day though (imo), though it can be very profitable in position and with a good feel on villain.

[Fiksdal]

The EV in a 3bet comes from the chance of taking down the pot right now (huge against the wide range of a LAG.)

OR if villain flat calls with a speculative hand, thinking he'll get paid off huge when he hits, but most of the time folds to our cbet on the flop.

Also, 3betting light like this gives us much more of an active image, making us more likely to get paid off with our big hands.

[wslee00]

meh - i think you'll be wasting a lot of money trying to hit a flop if you keep calling with low suited connectors and continue spewing if you continue on a board like that. All those drawing hands go way down in value against this type of opponent b/c he's so aggressive after the flop.

Also what you do depends on what type of LAG he is. Does he slow down when faced w/ aggression or does he just respond w/ more aggression. I think the type of LAG you describe is not general enough so should be evaluated on a case by case basis.

[Fiksdal]

^^ QFT

[ama0330]

idk about 3betting pre being obviously better as you are narrowing his range to the point where you are going to have to hit the flop or invest a lot of money cbetting and risk getting raised off your hand. ill do it versus certain opponents but remember that 89s plays well because of implied odds and if you 3bet this you cut the effective stack size in half, thereby reducing your implied odds. im not saying dont do it, im just saying think about it, its not an auto play.

also, floating can be a lot more aggressive and alarming than 3betting pre and playing a huge pot because your fe is going to be higher. ie. if you 3bet pre and the flop comes low cards giving you an oesd, you cant really play it aggressivly because his range in this 3bet pot is mostly getting it in on a board of say 65Jr, and your draw is -ev versus his calling range. and you sure as hell can't be floating an oesd in a 3bet pot, afaic.

but if you choose to just call pre and float flop, you keep his range wide and its an easy and inexpensive way to find out if you can take the pot away if you just call the flop and bomb the turn. his cbet range is gonna be really wide so you can be confident that you have the necessary FE, and if you don't, you can get away cheap.

of course the insurance is that you have the draw to fall back on but as i said before, you should be thinking about how to get him off the hand and whether or not that is going to work. if you cant get him off and you hit the river and stack him, then in a way you have failed because you weren't betting for value.