$5NL 6-Max, QQ delayed 2nd barrel on Ace-high river

[Wooden Ta Sheng]

Villian has been so-so against the other players at the table but I've been able to outplay him postflop HU. Sometimes I like to 2nd barrel turns or bet-check/2nd barrel rivers into higher overcards after I've been called on the flop with an over present.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Hero ($11.33)
SB ($8.35)
BB ($6.57)
UTG ($4.22)
MP ($5.60)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $0.18</font>, SB calls $0.16, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: ($0.41) J/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $0.2</font>, SB calls $0.20.

Turn: ($0.81) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks.

River: ($0.81) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $0.45</font>

Thoughts.

[Quester]

What do you think calls you that you beat?

[Wooden Ta Sheng]

[ QUOTE ]
What do you think calls you that you beat?

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you think beats me after checking twice?

[jonyy6788]

why are u bluffing the river?

[monkover]

[ QUOTE ]
why are u bluffing the river?

[/ QUOTE ]
checking the river is fine if he had the Ahigh fd he´s going to call... you basically turned your hand into a bluff. It´s not about which hands you are ahead of but which hands you are ahead of that call you river bad and that essentially are none.

[Quester]

[ QUOTE ]
What do you think beats me after checking twice?

[/ QUOTE ]

Your opponent seems fairly passive. He could have a hand like KQ, A/images/graemlins/club.gifx/images/graemlins/club.gif, QT, AJ, AQ, etc. You are turning your hand with showdown value into a bluff. I'd pop him again on the turn and check behind on the river. Nothing that you beat is calling here.

[ocdscale]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What do you think calls you that you beat?

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you think beats me after checking twice?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you really think there's a good chance you're ahead, ask yourself what worse hands call.

[Wooden Ta Sheng]

[ QUOTE ]
why are u semi- bluffing the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

Villain doesn't know where I'm at in the hand and he has shown weakness on consecutive streets. I have shown bluffs at this table to set up times I will play the [probable] nuts. I say probable because I obviously don't have the nuts but he doesn't know that and I feel you have to have the ability to play air, semi-bluffs, the probable nuts, and the nuts the same way. Villain may be prompted to call with all kinds of hands preflop, many of which are beat by QQ.

[Quester]

[ QUOTE ]
Villain doesn't know where I'm at in the hand and he has shown weakness on consecutive streets. I have shown bluffs at this table to set up times I will play the [probable] nuts. I say probable because I obviously don't have the nuts but he doesn't know that and I feel you have to have the ability to play air, semi-bluffs, the probable nuts, and the nuts the same way. Villain may be prompted to call with all kinds of hands preflop, many of which are beat by QQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

By definition this is not a semi-bluff. A semi-bluff implies a chance to improve your hand on a later street. In other words, you can't semi-bluff the river.

At these limits, setting up future plays is unnecessary.

[Wooden Ta Sheng]

I am fairly aggressive and tricky postflop . I could have a have a hand like KQ, A/images/graemlins/club.gifx/images/graemlins/club.gif, QT, AJ, AQ, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Quester]

Seriously man, stick to the basics. You may be aggressive and tricky postflop (all the more reason for him to call), but he probably can barely read the two cards in his hand let alone think about how you are thinking about how he is thinking about you. This is level 1 poker here, ABC all the way. There is 0 value in betting this river. You don't fold out anything that beats you, especially not for 1/2 pot.

[monkover]

[ QUOTE ]


I am fairly aggressive and tricky postflop . I could have a have a hand like KQ, A/images/graemlins/club.gifx/images/graemlins/club.gif, QT, AJ, AQ, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

tricky is not the same as good!

[Wooden Ta Sheng]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Villain doesn't know where I'm at in the hand and he has shown weakness on consecutive streets. I have shown bluffs at this table to set up times I will play the [probable] nuts. I say probable because I obviously don't have the nuts but he doesn't know that and I feel you have to have the ability to play air, semi-bluffs, the probable nuts, and the nuts the same way. Villain may be prompted to call with all kinds of hands preflop, many of which are beat by QQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

By definition this is not a semi-bluff. A semi-bluff implies a chance to improve your hand on a later street. In other words, you can't semi-bluff the river.

At these limits, setting up future plays is unnecessary.

[/ QUOTE ]

Put yourself in villain's shoes. If you're calling a c-bet on the flop with a decent hand, why are you then checking the turn? You're giving your opponent a chance to catch up to your hand. Then you check the river again on an Ace high flop. An observant opponent knows their only chance to win this pot is not by just bluffing (at least I do) . Maybe it's not a semi-bluff, but can definately be a bet for value against hands like 88-QQ that would reluctantly float a King-high flop but wence when an Ace hits.

[Wooden Ta Sheng]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Villain doesn't know where I'm at in the hand and he has shown weakness on consecutive streets. I have shown bluffs at this table to set up times I will play the [probable] nuts. I say probable because I obviously don't have the nuts but he doesn't know that and I feel you have to have the ability to play air, semi-bluffs, the probable nuts, and the nuts the same way. Villain may be prompted to call with all kinds of hands preflop, many of which are beat by QQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

By definition this is not a semi-bluff. A semi-bluff implies a chance to improve your hand on a later street. In other words, you can't semi-bluff the river.

At these limits, setting up future plays is unnecessary. .

[/ QUOTE ]

This is why I do very well at these limits despite conventional wisdom. Most players at these levels are unaware that they are playing the type of player who can set up future plays.

[jonyy6788]

i'm so confused as to ur reasoning as to why you bluffed the river

[Wooden Ta Sheng]

[ QUOTE ]
Seriously man, stick to the basics. You may be aggressive and tricky postflop (all the more reason for him to call), but he probably can barely read the two cards in his hand let alone think about how you are thinking about how he is thinking about you. . This is level 1 poker here, ABC all the way. There is 0 value in betting this river. You don't fold out anything that beats you, especially not for 1/2 pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which is one of the reasons that knowing how to set up future plays is so +EV. You're cheating yourself out of money if you think I'm full of [censored].

[Wooden Ta Sheng]

[ QUOTE ]
i'm so confused as to ur reasoning as to why you bluffed the river

[/ QUOTE ]

Primarily because I think it's has a better chance to be for value, rather than a bluff. Not to mention that villain could have floated the flop with worse than King-high looking to catch something on the turn and showed weakness checking consecutively.

[Quester]

[ QUOTE ]
Which is one of the reasons that knowing how to set up future plays is so +EV. You're cheating yourself out of money if you think I'm full of [censored].

[/ QUOTE ]

Am I getting leveled here? You're saying that you should set up future plays against an opponent who doesn't think and thus will have no recollection of past history?

[Quester]

[ QUOTE ]
Primarily because I think it's has a better chance to be for value, rather than a bluff. Not to mention that villain could have floated the flop with worse than King-high looking to catch something on the turn and showed weakness checking consecutively.

[/ QUOTE ]

What hands worse than K-high call your "value bet" on the river?

[jonyy6788]

also, y did u bet the flop and not the turn?

[VayaConDios]

[ QUOTE ]
i'm so confused as to ur reasoning as to why you bluffed the river

[/ QUOTE ]

Through a series of moves, each more intricate than the last, he has set up his opponent so that he will call here with an unimproved pocket pair!

ETA: This guy may very well call here with 10-10, but that's because he's a donk, not because he's been set up.

[Wooden Ta Sheng]

[ QUOTE ]
also, y did u bet the flop and not the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

To set up the river play. IMHO, an Ace hitting the river is perfect for me in these spots because I will be given more credit for value betting into an Ace-high river than routinely c-bet into a King-high flop. I make this type of move with hands that are way worse but I mostly launch on the turn.

[jonyy6788]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
also, y did u bet the flop and not the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

To set up the river play. IMHO, an Ace hitting the river is perfect for me in these spots because I will be given more credit for value betting into an Ace-high river than routinely c-bet into a King-high flop. I make this type of move with hands that are way worse but I mostly launch on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

ummmm, it's fine to bet the river if we have a hand like 22 or 9Ts, but we have a hand with showdown value. Do you understand the importance of showdown?

also, if you think u needed an ace to hit the river to win this pot you shouldn't have bet the flop

[Quester]

[ QUOTE ]
To set up the river play. IMHO, an Ace hitting the river is perfect for me in these spots because I will be given more credit for value betting into an Ace-high river than routinely c-bet into a King-high flop. I make this type of move with hands that are way worse but I mostly launch on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

How is an overcard good for you if you are in fact value betting?

[Wooden Ta Sheng]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i'm so confused as to ur reasoning as to why you bluffed the river

[/ QUOTE ]

Through a series of moves, each more intricate than the last, he has set up his opponent so that he will call here with an unimproved pocket pair!

ETA: This guy may very well call here with 10-10, but that's because he's a donk, not because he's been set up.

[/ QUOTE ]

The point is for him to fold hands that beat QQ like Kx hands when an Ace hits, hence the set up. 88-QQ, IMHO are pretty much automatic folds when the Ace hits and if not, I'm splitting with QQ and beating everything else. I think you all are giving villain too much credit for actually having a hand that will beat QQ, instead of really looking at the way the hand was played and the way the hand can be played.

[Wooden Ta Sheng]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
To set up the river play. IMHO, an Ace hitting the river is perfect for me in these spots because I will be given more credit for value betting into an Ace-high river than routinely c-bet into a King-high flop. I make this type of move with hands that are way worse but I mostly launch on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

How is an overcard good for you if you are in fact value betting?

[/ QUOTE ]

When you consider that villain could have floated 88-QQ or worse and Kx-type hands that fear Aces.

[Quester]

[ QUOTE ]
The point is for him to fold hands that beat QQ like Kx hands when an Ace hits, hence the set up. 88-QQ, IMHO are pretty much automatic folds when the Ace hits and if not, I'm splitting with QQ and beating everything else. I think you all are giving villain too much credit for actually having a hand that will beat QQ, instead of really looking at the way the hand was played and the way the hand can be played.

[/ QUOTE ]

88-TT would have folded the flop if they would fold on the river. JJ is killing you. There is only 1 QQ combo possible. Kx isn't necessarily going to fold because you only bet 1/2 pot on the flop, checked the turn, and then bet 1/2 pot on the river.

[Wooden Ta Sheng]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
also, y did u bet the flop and not the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

To set up the river play. IMHO, an Ace hitting the river is perfect for me in these spots because I will be given more credit for value betting into an Ace-high river than routinely c-bet into a King-high flop. I make this type of move with hands that are way worse but I mostly launch on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

ummmm, it's fine to bet the river if we have a hand like 22 or 9Ts, but we have a hand with showdown value. Do you understand the importance of showdown?

also, if you think u needed an ace to hit the river to win this pot you shouldn't have bet the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

This is precisely why you don't get setting up future plays beyond the obvious. To be a good postflop player, I believe you have to be able to make this move with the probable worse hand and the probable best hand (even if it is thin). This makes it harder to play against you. If you're always playing ABC, even at the smaller limits, you're gonna get beat out of alot of smaller pots waiting for the best of it.

I get alot of players who say, "He only plays the nuts, that's why it's easy to play against him", yet their getting blew off the best hand by 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif after I'm c-betting a 6 /images/graemlins/spade.gifQ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif flop, checking the turn, and then barreling a Ace /images/graemlins/spade.gif-high river. I'm more likely to get credit for the Ace. The setup in this type of play is my IMAGE , not my HAND .

[Wooden Ta Sheng]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The point is for him to fold hands that beat QQ like Kx hands when an Ace hits, hence the set up. 88-QQ, IMHO are pretty much automatic folds when the Ace hits and if not, I'm splitting with QQ and beating everything else. I think you all are giving villain too much credit for actually having a hand that will beat QQ, instead of really looking at the way the hand was played and the way the hand can be played.

[/ QUOTE ]

88-TT would have folded the flop if they would fold on the river. JJ is killing you. There is only 1 QQ combo possible. Kx isn't necessarily going to fold because you only bet 1/2 pot on the flop, checked the turn, and then bet 1/2 pot on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't mean JJ.

[Quester]

[ QUOTE ]
This is precisely why you don't get setting up future plays beyond the obvious. To be a good postflop player, I believe you have to be able to make this move with the probable worse hand and the probable best hand (even if it is thin). This makes it harder to play against you. If you're always playing ABC, even at the smaller limits, you're gonna get beat out of alot of smaller pots waiting for the best of it.

I get alot of players who say, "He only plays the nuts, that's why it's easy to play against him", yet their getting blew off the best hand by 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif after I'm c-betting a 6 /images/graemlins/spade.gifQ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif flop, checking the turn, and then barreling a Ace /images/graemlins/spade.gif-high river. I'm more likely to get credit for the Ace. The setup in this type of play is my IMAGE , not my HAND .

[/ QUOTE ]

This is fantastic. A+ You should write a book.

[Quester]

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't mean JJ.

[/ QUOTE ]

So back to the original question, what hands that you beat call your river bet? First you said it was a value bet, but then you're talking about folding out Kx. A bet to fold out Kx isn't a value bet, it's a bluff.

[Wooden Ta Sheng]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I didn't mean JJ.

[/ QUOTE ]

So back to the original question, what hands that you beat call your river bet? First you said it was a value bet, but then you're talking about folding out Kx. A bet to fold out Kx isn't a value bet, it's a bluff.

[/ QUOTE ]

No first I said it was a semi-bluff. I don't see too many hands that I beat calling this river, which is why I think the Ace hitting after the King is the perfect setup.

[AFennewald]

don't do this. You have the best hand here alot and your bet folds all worse hands and gets calls from all better ones. This would be alot better if you had a hand with no showdown value.

[Wooden Ta Sheng]

[ QUOTE ]
don't do this. You have the best hand here alot and your bet folds all worse hands and gets calls from all better ones. This would be alot better if you had a hand with no showdown value.

[/ QUOTE ]

I play hands with no showdown value the same way in the same spot from time to time.

[jonyy6788]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
don't do this. You have the best hand here alot and your bet folds all worse hands and gets calls from all better ones. This would be alot better if you had a hand with no showdown value.

[/ QUOTE ]

I play hands with no showdown value the same way in the same spot from time to time.

[/ QUOTE ]

that's fine....the problem is u don't understand why you misplayed this hand and I feel like ur trying to teach us how to play it properly instead of us tryin to help you

[Wooden Ta Sheng]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
don't do this. You have the best hand here alot and your bet folds all worse hands and gets calls from all better ones. This would be alot better if you had a hand with no showdown value.

[/ QUOTE ]

I play hands with no showdown value the same way in the same spot from time to time.

[/ QUOTE ]

that's fine....the problem is u don't understand why you misplayed this hand and I feel like ur trying to teach us how to play it properly instead of us tryin to help you

[/ QUOTE ]

The reason that you've gotten alot of back and forth from me is not because I think I played the hand properly and I just don't want to accept help from others who say I misplayed it. Most of what I'm discussing right now centers on the comment that, "setting up future plays [in micro limits] is unnecessary". The play may be questionable by textbook play standards for micro limits play but then again, players who ascend to greatness don't always play textbook style. They are able to recognize certain situations like this one as oppurtunities to pick up pots after seeing certain setup oppurtunities present themselves.
This doesn't always mean misplayed under those certain circumstances.

[wslee00]

i feel stupider after reading this thread... in fact - they should put me in the special persons class

[Wooden Ta Sheng]

[ QUOTE ]
i feel stupider after reading this thread... in fact - they should put me in the special persons class

[/ QUOTE ]

Villain folded saying he had K 10o. I didn't show. Don't feel stupid, no need to.

[wslee00]

stop being results oriented

i've played 5NL and a big majority of players would have called here with the line you took.

[cubase]

Wow.

I think that is all I can add.

Maybe not.

Wow.

[ocdscale]

This reeks of results orientation.
'Hero' believes he folded out the best hand with an 'unconventional' play and seeks validation.

Your bet on the river is a bluff because you obviously did not believe you had the best hand (if you really think you had the best hand, the bet was horrible).
So you are betting with the intention of folding out Kx hands or possibly Ax flush draws. Whether that's +EV or not depends on how likely villain is going to fold Kx (he's never folding Ax). Because this is 5NL with no reads, a river bet here is bad.

Also, this is hilarious: [ QUOTE ]
but then again, players who ascend to greatness don't always play textbook style.

[/ QUOTE ]
(And what it implies about OP's thought process)

[AFennewald]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
also, y did u bet the flop and not the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

To set up the river play. IMHO, an Ace hitting the river is perfect for me in these spots because I will be given more credit for value betting into an Ace-high river than routinely c-bet into a King-high flop. I make this type of move with hands that are way worse but I mostly launch on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

ummmm, it's fine to bet the river if we have a hand like 22 or 9Ts, but we have a hand with showdown value. Do you understand the importance of showdown?

also, if you think u needed an ace to hit the river to win this pot you shouldn't have bet the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

This is precisely why you don't get setting up future plays beyond the obvious. To be a good postflop player, I believe you have to be able to make this move with the probable worse hand and the probable best hand (even if it is thin). This makes it harder to play against you. If you're always playing ABC, even at the smaller limits, you're gonna get beat out of alot of smaller pots waiting for the best of it.

I get alot of players who say, "He only plays the nuts, that's why it's easy to play against him", yet their getting blew off the best hand by 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif after I'm c-betting a 6 /images/graemlins/spade.gifQ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif flop, checking the turn, and then barreling a Ace /images/graemlins/spade.gif-high river. I'm more likely to get credit for the Ace. The setup in this type of play is my IMAGE , not my HAND .

[/ QUOTE ]


This seems like a complete misapplication of AEJonese range merging post. But really to beat no limit 5 attempting to make thin value bets and bluffs is just not nesscary.

[jonyy6788]

have fun when u move up, nobody at NL50 is ever gonna fold a king to you there.

[boycalledroy]

Why don't you give the flush chaser a free card instead of making him pay to complete his draw? The turn check is horrible. If he c/r you AI on the river what do you do?

Only make river bets that leave you with easy options.

You would make more money betting the turn and checking behind on river and lose less. How we play it you get your extra bet called by weaker hands, how you play it you get your extra bet called by stronger hands.

[dmesey]

I think you played it fine. I really like the check on the turn. Good river value bet.

[boycalledroy]

Question if this is against me and I see you badly misplay a hand and I will (at my limit 25NL/50NL) push on you with a series of hands. A lot of kings and a lot of not kings, BECAUSE of the ace. Then what are you going to do?

YOUR HAND CAN NOT TAKE A RIVER CHECK RAISE AND WILL NOT GET CALLED BY A HAND YOU BEAT.

Jesus Christ why don't you just post a pooh-bah now and tell us all how our conventional (and winning) wisdom is worthless.

[Wooden Ta Sheng]

[ QUOTE ]
This reeks of results orientation.
'Hero' believes he folded out the best hand with an 'unconventional' play and seeks validation.

Your bet on the river is a bluff because you obviously did not believe you had the best hand (if you really think you had the best hand, the bet was horrible).
So you are betting with the intention of folding out Kx hands or possibly Ax flush draws. Whether that's +EV or not depends on how likely villain is going to fold Kx (he's never folding Ax). Because this is 5NL with no reads , a river bet here is bad.

Also, this is hilarious: [ QUOTE ]
but then again, players who ascend to greatness don't always play textbook style.

[/ QUOTE ]
(And what it implies about OP's thought process)

[/ QUOTE ]

Villian has been so-so against the other players at the table but I've been able to outplay him postflop HU.

[Wooden Ta Sheng]

[ QUOTE ]
Question if this is against me and I see you badly misplay a hand and I will (at my limit 25NL/50NL) push on you with a series of hands. A lot of kings and a lot of not kings, BECAUSE of the ace. Then what are you going to do?

YOUR HAND CAN NOT TAKE A RIVER CHECK RAISE AND WILL NOT GET CALLED BY A HAND YOU BEAT.

Jesus Christ why don't you just post a pooh-bah now and tell us all how our conventional (and winning) wisdom is worthless.

[/ QUOTE ]

You'll be so busy focusing on how bad I misplayed a previous hand (which I want you to do) that you'll get lulled into check pushing alot of kings and non-kings only to have me show up with the nuts. Happens all the time. BTW, calm down.

[Wooden Ta Sheng]

[ QUOTE ]
Why don't you give the flush chaser a free card instead of making him pay to complete his draw? The turn check is horrible. If he c/r you AI on the river what do you do?

Only make river bets that leave you with easy options.

You would make more money betting the turn and checking behind on river and lose less. How we play it you get your extra bet called by weaker hands, how you play it you get your extra bet called by stronger hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

If villain c/rs AI on the river, I fold (and I'll probably tell him I have QQ). That way the next time I bet the same, I'll have the nuts and villain will lose all or most of his stack. Folding to a c/r AI is an easy option for me; I don't sweat it. I can always make it up later in other hands. Besides, if I bet the same amount on the turn, the river goes check/check and I still get beat, it's no different than checking the turn and betting the river after a check and getting c/rd AI. The difference is on the river, I give myself a chance to win the hand outright.

[jonyy6788]

I think that u think that NL5 requires a lot of thinking

that's a lot of thinking going on, regardless, just play ABC

[Wooden Ta Sheng]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
also, y did u bet the flop and not the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

To set up the river play. IMHO, an Ace hitting the river is perfect for me in these spots because I will be given more credit for value betting into an Ace-high river than routinely c-bet into a King-high flop. I make this type of move with hands that are way worse but I mostly launch on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

ummmm, it's fine to bet the river if we have a hand like 22 or 9Ts, but we have a hand with showdown value. Do you understand the importance of showdown?

also, if you think u needed an ace to hit the river to win this pot you shouldn't have bet the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

This is precisely why you don't get setting up future plays beyond the obvious. To be a good postflop player, I believe you have to be able to make this move with the probable worse hand and the probable best hand (even if it is thin). This makes it harder to play against you. If you're always playing ABC, even at the smaller limits, you're gonna get beat out of alot of smaller pots waiting for the best of it.

I get alot of players who say, "He only plays the nuts, that's why it's easy to play against him", yet their getting blew off the best hand by 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif after I'm c-betting a 6 /images/graemlins/spade.gifQ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif flop, checking the turn, and then barreling a Ace /images/graemlins/spade.gif-high river. I'm more likely to get credit for the Ace. The setup in this type of play is my IMAGE , not my HAND .

[/ QUOTE ]


This seems like a complete misapplication of AEJonese range merging post. But really to beat no limit 5 attempting to make thin value bets and bluffs is just not nesscary.

[/ QUOTE ]

This has nothing to do with aejones' post and most post like that lose my interest quick. Thin value bets and bluffs at $5NL are a necessary part of my game. I do well with them and they will aid me fine moving up (it really does trip me out how so many people say they don't work). If you don't see it that way, to each his own.

[sirklas]

Again,

I guess you don`t get the point here. You should have betted turn as well IMO. If he bets river: fold. Otherwise, check behind.

In your case, like the hand was played, only a check behind on the river can be +ev. Like the others already wrote: Only a hand that beats you would call. So you are risking the money you put in on the river, if a better hand beats you (and thats is in the long run -ev!!!). Otherwise you only get a fold!!!

sirklas

[Wooden Ta Sheng]

[ QUOTE ]
I think that u think that NL5 requires a lot of thinking

that's a lot of thinking going on, regardless, just play ABC

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I think recognizing when you can spot setup situations (even if initially -EV and outside of normal ABC) requires alot of thinking. Being able to execute and profit off these situations at $5NL, IMHO, is a skill in itself because most people are so deadset in their minds that they don't work. The time to open up your mind and game is now, not when you get to $200NL+. By then, you gonna have fewer and fewer chances to profit off of strictly ABC and the smart, tricky LAGs there will eat you alive.

[Wooden Ta Sheng]

[ QUOTE ]
Again,

I guess you don`t get the point here. You should have betted turn as well IMO. If he bets river: fold. Otherwise, check behind.

In your case, like the hand was played, only a check behind on the river can be +ev. Like the others already wrote: Only a hand that beats you would call. So you are risking the money you put in on the river, if a better hand beats you (and thats is in the long run -ev!!!). Otherwise you only get a fold!!!

sirklas

[/ QUOTE ]

In the long run, I don't play this hand out the same way everytime. Besides, I haven't said your line was wrong. I've been only making a point about setting up future plays at this level is unnecessary. You guys are huffing and puffing and blowing the wrong house down.

[Big Poppa Smurf]

yeah it's $5nl you are thinking way too hard

[Wooden Ta Sheng]

[ QUOTE ]
yeah it's $5nl you are thinking way too hard

[/ QUOTE ]

There's an actual benefit in that, though (which you should be fully aware of). Also, it's better than thinking too little.

[Frosteater]

Two things I'd like to point out here.


[ QUOTE ]
I have shown bluffs at this table to set up times I will play the [probable] nuts.

[/ QUOTE ]
No problem with that, but I think you have to know whom you playing in order for this to work. Your read on villain is "so-so against the others, got outplayed by me HU" - at least that's what your giving us. If this is all you have the whole set up thing won't do you any good. If you're up against a player who's actually thinking about your hand and why you'd want to play something the way you do, great. If there's even a shadow of a doubt, don't even think of setting people up. $5NL, I'm not going to say you'll find nothing but idiots here, but you'll see some weird stuff. And I mean weird. Completely beyond everything alcohol could be used for as an apology. So, again, if you knew your play would work against this villain, fine, but if you're not 100% sure, I think it's better to give villain's hand credit, not his brain.


[ QUOTE ]
I say probable because I obviously don't have the nuts but he doesn't know that and I feel you have to have the ability to play air, semi-bluffs, the probable nuts, and the nuts the same way.

[/ QUOTE ]
So you're saying you bet the nuts halfpot-check-halfpot at $5NL at least as often as to make it stand out for setting up people who most likely don't care for the times when you don't have the nuts so you can take down the pot on a river bluff, when a big part of your opponent's range are missed draws that loose the showdown anyway after you let them draw for free?
Either I just completely misunderstood your point or you have a serious leak here.


See, I don't want to attack your play here, I'm sorry if it looks that way. But I really have to point it out:
Yes, small "plays" work at these stakes to a degree. But the reason why this limit is profitable is because your opponents will loose their stacks against your big hands. But because this is true, setting up people and bluffing them can not work. As I said before, small stabs work. But this is often because your opponents simply don't hit the flop or miss their draws on the river, in other words because they don't have a hand. It's very rarely because they have a hand but think yours is better. Of course there are other factors at work, too. People will realize if someone open pushes every hand and they will adjust. They won't realize if you're raising much more hands on the button than from utg, though (and a lot of other things).

Think about it, when your opponent is calling down your monsters with TP-type hands, why would he fold the same hands to a bluff?

[Wooden Ta Sheng]

[ QUOTE ]
Two things I'd like to point out here.


[ QUOTE ]
I have shown bluffs at this table to set up times I will play the [probable] nuts.

[/ QUOTE ]
No problem with that, but I think you have to know whom you playing in order for this to work. Your read on villain is "so-so against the others, got outplayed by me HU" - at least that's what your giving us. If this is all you have the whole set up thing won't do you any good. If you're up against a player who's actually thinking about your hand and why you'd want to play something the way you do, great. If there's even a shadow of a doubt, don't even think of setting people up. $5NL, I'm not going to say you'll find nothing but idiots here, but you'll see some weird stuff. And I mean weird. Completely beyond everything alcohol could be used for as an apology. So, again, if you knew your play would work against this villain, fine, but if you're not 100% sure, I think it's better to give villain's hand credit, not his brain.


[ QUOTE ]
I say probable because I obviously don't have the nuts but he doesn't know that and I feel you have to have the ability to play air, semi-bluffs, the probable nuts, and the nuts the same way.

[/ QUOTE ]
So you're saying you bet the nuts halfpot-check-halfpot at $5NL at least as often as to make it stand out for setting up people who most likely don't care for the times when you don't have the nuts so you can take down the pot on a river bluff, when a big part of your opponent's range are missed draws that loose the showdown anyway after you let them draw for free?
Either I just completely misunderstood your point or you have a serious leak here.


See, I don't want to attack your play here, I'm sorry if it looks that way. But I really have to point it out:
Yes, small "plays" work at these stakes to a degree. But the reason why this limit is profitable is because your opponents will loose their stacks against your big hands. But because this is true, setting up people and bluffing them can not work . As I said before, small stabs work. But this is often because your opponents simply don't hit the flop or miss their draws on the river, in other words because they don't have a hand. It's very rarely because they have a hand but think yours is better. Of course there are other factors at work, too. People will realize if someone open pushes every hand and they will adjust. They won't realize if you're raising much more hands on the button than from utg, though (and a lot of other things).

Think about it, when your opponent is calling down your monsters with TP-type hands, why would he fold the same hands to a bluff?

[/ QUOTE ]

When it comes to setup situations, yes. I liked the majority of your post, though.