Basic value extraction exercise

[Restlys]

Can i slow play this even with a FD and make money in the long run or i just cannot afford to give a free card? how would you play, how would you calculate it?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Button ($5.25)
SB ($16.10)
Hero ($9.95)
UTG ($5.90)
MP ($14.85)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises to $0.4</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls $0.30.

Flop: ($0.85) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $0.5</font>, MP folds.

Final Pot: $1.35

[jessyj07]

Don't be so worried about a flush draw when you're playing HU on the flop. check/raise his c-bet and lead/call any turn.

[cubase]

[ QUOTE ]
Don't be so worried about a flush draw when you're playing HU on the flop. check/raise his c-bet and lead/call any turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I lead out here. The check-raise sends a big message (I have a big hand). Leading out says maybe I have a jack or a PP smaller than jacks. You are bound to get raised on the flop or on the turn. The check raise might get weaker jacks to fold or at least alert an overpair to be cautious.

If you bet out, he may put you on a weaker jack or underpair to a jack, and raise you or call. When you lead again, he realized he has made a mistake with his overpair or AJ and suddenly he needs to raise to "get information".

You called with a PP to hit a set. When you hit a set you want a big pot. To create that big pot, bet.

To summarize, check-raising defines your hand. Betting out disguises your hand. You could bet with a lot of stuff. You could bet two-overs and a flush draw. You could bet just a flush draw.

In this case he had nothing. When he has AJ, AA, KK, QQ, you will probably stack him by leading out. Against some guys, they will call your lead with AK and go broke when the A or K hits on the turn.

Bet more on the flop to help build that pot. I'd bet .70 or .75. The more you get in now, the more there will be if/when he raises you.

[Restlys]

great help, thanks.

[Vyse]

Bet .60 on flop. You have to bet.

[filsteal]

Let's make sure the reasoning is clear here, given the phrasing of OP's question:

The reason why you're betting isn't so much that you're worried about giving a free card to flush draws. It's mainly that you're betting for value against made hands (TPTK/overpairs) that will be willing lose a big pot to you.

[flo]

[ QUOTE ]
Let's make sure the reasoning is clear here, given the phrasing of OP's question:

The reason why you're betting isn't so much that you're worried about giving a free card to flush draws. It's mainly that you're betting for value against made hands (TPTK/overpairs) that will be willing lose a big pot to you.

[/ QUOTE ]

[BenJay]

nothing wrong with bet on flop. villan does nto know where u r at. besides, a small win is better than a big loss, isnt it?

[Spechel EDD]

[ QUOTE ]
Don't be so worried about a flush draw when you're playing HU on the flop. check/raise his c-bet and lead/call any turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

spot on

[Fiksdal]

Totally standard.

[ama0330]

If he is the type to cbet then you can check, but if he is super aggro then I like a lead better cause you can b3b if you expect him to raise. In fact a lead is probably better here because overpairs are going to play back at you.

[Abramovic]

Just concentrate on getting all the money in the middle.

Checking isnt going to do that.

[HBomb]

Check raising isn't the worst case scenario, some guys will still shove on top of a check raise with an overpair.

[ActionStan]

I think you can play it either way, lead or check/raise. When you choose, plan a little bit and size your bets. You have a very strong hand. You want all the money in the middle. To do that, you are going to have to make some pot sized bets. If you lead, you may have to do it in three chunks. Given the stack sizes, that's a little tough but not terrible. $.80 on the flop, $2.40ish on the turn leaves $7.50ish in the pot and just under $7.00 in your stack. So three pot sized bets gets you there. Don't worry about pushing him off a hand. You are playing this as though he has a hand. Play for his stack and don't worry about fractions of bets on early streets.

If the stacks were a little deeper, it's hard to do without raising. A callable check/raise on the flop, even a min check raise, will make it a lot easier to get the whole stack in on the turn and river.

In this case, a check raise on the flop is a nice thing if the villain does happen to be drawing. He mostly won't be, but for the times that he is it lets you get all the money in on the turn when it is more likely that you still have the best hand.

[Fiksdal]

[ QUOTE ]

Check raising isn't the worst case scenario, some guys will still shove on top of a check raise with an overpair.


[/ QUOTE ]

Villains don't fold AA no matter what line we take anyway, right?

So I've been thinking about this.

Isn't it like if we CR we pick up villains cbet with all the whiffed stuff in his range, but if he has an overpair we stack him no matter what line we take?

Shouldn't this make a CR better?

[ActionStan]

I think it's a balance. Check/raising is a little stronger and is more likely to get a weak top pair to fold. Leading is very often top pair or a middle pocket pair on a board like this. If the villain has a moderate to good hand, he'll call us. If villain has TPTK he may raise us. He will probably raise us more here with TPTK than he will shove over our check/raise.

I think, over the course of time, leading will get a little more value out of a TPTK sorts of hand and less out of whiffs. I honestly don't think it makes a whole heck of a lot of difference unless you play with the same people a lot and you need to vary your play.

The key, though, is to plan your bets well enough that you end up getting your whole stack in. In this example, the hero is shallow enough that he will end up there regardless. If stacks were 30% deeper, then he has to put in a raise or depend on the villain to put in a raise. I find it more reliable to put the raise in myself and use a check/raise line on the flop.

[Restlys]

So basically raise on the flop to make the villain play tptk, rr with over pair but fold with most draws( of bet is pot sized), but if we cr then we get a bet with the TPTK, overpair and probably the draws too no? What if we call the cbet and bet out on the turn? I have a feeling this would be too fancy for the stakes but it is an option....of course we would fold to an all in if the flush was on the table...

[wslee00]

i think c/r and b3b both are valid plays... it's just that you have to be capable of making the same moves w/ flush draws and other lesser hands.

[Fiksdal]

ActionStan

Good analysis. Another point: How many % of villains range do you think whiffed this flop, and how big part of it do you think have top pair medium kicker or better?

[ActionStan]

Well, most will have whiffed I suppose. I don't tend to worry about what the villain might have in those terms so much. I think entirely in terms of maximizing my value on the river when the villain has a hand and give up the value of allowing the villain to bluff or improve on the turn.

I think the danger is that we fall into this trap:

...snip...
Can i slow play this
...snip...

The whole point of calling raises with small pairs is that you have to get paid off for your call plus the times you stack off. In order to get paid off, the villain has to have a big hand, so I play it as though the villain has a big hand. In my mind he is playing AA every time. I'm not so worried about 5BB here or there. I'm worried about the 50BB on the end. It goes back to your game selection post the other day with the set over set debacle. So many people end up at the river making 15BB on top set because they slowplayed and scare cards dropped. Arrrrrg. Don't let that happen to you, fellow uLimit players. If one thing comes out of this thread its that when you have a set, you bet. Check/raise, lead, call the flop/raise the turn, it doesn't really matter all that much as long as that when you reach the river you can put in a big bet that a moderately strong hand can call. When you flop a set, it is your job to throw money in the pot by the fistfull. If the villain has nothing, so be it.

One of the complicating factors is that action killers can drop, so it is really in our best interest to get the money in as fast as we can. If a diamond were to drop on the turn, it would be bad for us. Not so much because we might have gotten outdrawn. We have plenty of outs if we did. But that a diamond will attenuate the amount of money we can get from moderately strong hands that now have a flush to worry about. In your example, it totally killed the action for 2 HUGE hands. There should have been 250 BB in that pot. Everyone shouold read that post, look at that hand and say out loud 3 times, "When I have top set that won't be me."

We are lucky in NL25 and NL50 that there are players who will stack off for 100BB with a hand like AJ on that board. This, to me, is the whole key. Were it not for these folks, we would have to worry about getting the bet out of the guy that whiffed because it wouldn't be profitable otherwise. But those folks allow us to play small pairs for raises fast all the time. So, I gear my strategy towards getting the 40-50BB bet on the end. Sometimes I lead, sometimes I check/raise but I always bet. I want to be there on the river able to make a bet that the villain can call with TPTK for 2/3 - 3/4 the pot. When I flop a set I immediately start to think how I am going to get the guys whole stack in, no muss, no fuss, no finess. Grab a fistfull of chips and bounce them right off his forehead.

[Fiksdal]

^ Very well written.

But, but they aren't getting away from any of those hands they stack off with if we lead, even if we CR, are they?

[boycalledroy]

Here is the way I play this hand. I'm going to check that flop (even though it is scary) because I want to stack him. I paid my price for the 10 to 1 shot now I'm here to redeem.

So check/call him and then dependent on next card and size of his bet depends on how the hand will play out.

If the flush comes in I check/call all the way to the showdown. If it does not I check/raise the river.

If he has AA/KK/QQ it is going in. If he has a weak hand he folds. We are currently WAY AHEAD of his range. We need him to catch up a little so we can stack him.

There is an irrational fear of not raising the flop round these parts.

[poker_n00b]

You should check raise this flop if _I_ were the villain.

I will cbet 100% on this flop, however I whiff very often against donk bets. Versus me you should play it very passive on the flop to maximize your expected value.

I never ever would lead this heads up. I also believe no one at NL 10 is folding overpair here to check raise. And if they are then they are good and hence will cbet this flop with more hands than call the flop donk with.

Besides, you still can overbet the pot you know...

If I would donkbet, it would be no more than half pot to induce a raise.

[ActionStan]

Thanks.

Yeah, you're right about that. Truly big hands are never getting away, lead or check raise. My contention is that surprisingly weak hands (TPTK with AT or AJ, TP with KQ, that sort of thing), will pay you off with the same lines as well and that it is your responsibility to build the pot so that can happen. You get to the end, stick in a big bet and offer the villain 2-1 or 2.5-1 and he calls because he's getting 2-1 and maybe his AJ is good. So I play my "big hand" line regardless.

To me, the lead vs check raise is really about stack sizes and aggressiveness and has very little to do with what I think the villain might be holding. If the stacks sizes are bigger than 100BB or so, there needs to be a raise somewhere in the betting line to have a chance of getting it all in on the end. You just can't get there otherwise. If the villain is aggressive and can be relied on to raise a medium or big hand, then leading works well. Brunson espouses leading in Super System because the villain represented a hand and is supposed to have a hand. He should raise. But, as you mentioned in your other post, at a passive table that can't be relied on. In that case we have to take it in our own hands and check/raise to get the pot size right for our needs. Set play is all about manipulating the pot size. Check/raising does have the added benefit of catching an extra bet from someone who whiffed which is a nice thing. On the flip side, if stacks are 120-150BB+, check/raising on the flop gives overpairs a little more chance to get away. There was a hand like that posted yesterday or the day before. The hero had KK and could get away because he was deep enough to get in another bet and not be pot stuck. I'm sure some industrious fellow could figure out which line nets a few more bucks versus different classes of villains. I probably check/raise more than lead. I don't have any data to back up this choice, though. It just works in my overall style.

I would go out on a limb and say that when stacks are &lt; 80-100BB, then a check raise might be a little better. With that stack size an overpair just can't get away. (For all you out there still listening, what does this say about pre-flop bet sizing and overpairs?) There are just too many reasons that people raise that aren't a set to not get yourself pot stuck. So, you don't get the downside of the stronger play to the same extent that you still get the benefit.


Any thoughts?

[Big Poppa Smurf]

You should min-bet the flop because then he will raise you with all his missed hands instead of folding them, so it's like earning yourself a bigger c-bet.

But seriously if the raiser is really tight I am more apt to lead out since he is more likely to have a big hand and raise me; if the PFR is really aggro I prefer to check-call since they will be c-betting air more often. Sometimes it just depends on my mood, sometimes it depends on other factors like table image and board texture.