JJ vs ....? 10NL 6max

[ZingZhang]

No reads on villain as such, he's tight, but over just 40 hands so :S, however I was fairly sure I was against something bigger than JJ throughout the hand. On the other hand, I'd had 99 and 88 in the previous 3 hands, so may have been seen as getting a little 'too' active pf and he had the button.

That said, I definitely felt I was beaten pretty early on, but have a really tough time laying down overpairs, even when I 'know' the villain has a bigger pair... makes me feel like some dumb calling station /images/graemlins/wink.gif

So how could I have played it better regarding making the decision when/if to fold at some point without relying on this running straight. Is it right to do so, or too exploitable/weak?

Hate river shove /images/graemlins/laugh.gif


Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.05/$0.10 Blinds - 4 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh))

SB: $6.65
BB: $4.45
Hero (UTG): $10.00
BTN: $17.00

Preflop: Hero is dealt Jhttp://legopoker.com/hh/images/club.gif J/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 Players)
<font color="red">Hero raises to $0.40</font>, <font color="red">BTN raises to $1.35</font>, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.95

Flop: ($2.85) 4http://legopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif 8http://legopoker.com/hh/images/club.gif Thttp://legopoker.com/hh/images/club.gif (2 Players)
Hero checks, <font color="red">BTN bets $1.75</font>, Hero calls $1.75

Turn: ($6.35) Qhttp://legopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $2.10</font>, BTN calls $2.10

River: ($10.55) 9http://legopoker.com/hh/images/club.gif (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets all-in for $4.80</font>, BTN calls $4.80

Pot Size: $20.15 ($1 Rake)

Title edited for clarity yo

[valence]

raise more preflop. You are UTG. Make it at least 5x

why aren't we betting out on the flop? are you slowplaying an overpair? If not betting out you should at least consider a checkraise here.

If you aren't betting the flop, why are you betting the turn? If you had bet the flop this would have made more sense.

The River push doesn't make sense. you are only getting called by a better hand.

[molotom]

On the river your only options are push or check/fold. Pushing is always better than check/call since if he has a worse hand you extract the most value by shoving, since there is a chance he will call, but if you tried c/c he will check behind a worse hand almost always ... If he has a better hand both c/c and push get you stacked the same.

Furthermore, you cannot check/fold the river getting 3:1 when the only realistic hands that beat you are A/images/graemlins/club.gifQ/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gifK/images/graemlins/club.gif. Therefore shoving the river is standard IMO.

Your turn bet seems a little pointless, I'd prefer a check. I think you are really screwed on the turn. I wouldn't even bother trying to bet out any draws, it's a minor mistake to give a 4:1 draw a free card but a big one to commit yourself against a made hand.

[ZingZhang]

Not slowplaying lol, I honestly did not feel JJ was the best hand, but this is one of the points to the post, can anyone fold the flop? Why would I bet out? At best I'm c/r'ing here, and strongly felt villain had a higher pair, so wanted to see his reaction on the turn.Isn't the straight good most of the time, what are you putting him on? Surely 10NL'rs are calling with TP,overpairs, 2pr, sets etc all day here?
But unlikely to be betting those hands on the river given the straight and flush both made it.
Only the flush or exactly kj beat us.

[Unknown Soldier]

awesome avatar valence

c/c flop c/f turn is standard against unknown. Not sure how 10nl plays. Probably a good line though. Dont get turn and river op, are you bluffing or what?

[ev_slave]

[ QUOTE ]
raise more preflop. You are UTG. Make it at least 5x


[/ QUOTE ]

Is the goal to take it down PF? I've heard an argument that, if anything, smaller than standard raises should be made from OOP PF since you'll be playing smaller pots OOP when you're more likely -EV instead of bigger ones. This was mostly from a tourney player, but doesn't the concept apply to cash?

[wallenborn]

You changed plans during the hand. Playing JJ for set value only calling a raise that's 13.5% of your stack is a very marginal decision. Yet when you check to him on the flop you do just that. Then you change your mind and play your hand as an overpair, against an overcard on the turn and a three-flush on the river. That's very optimistic.

What do you think he has when he reraises you preflop? You say he's tight, so AK, KK+ will make up a lot of his range. On the flop, you have only Jacks on a Ten-high board, so there are no pocket pairs that he could have that you beat and are overcards to the flop. If you had Kings on a 843 flop, it would be a totally different situation, but here you can exclude all pocket pairs except those that beat you.

The turn then brings a scare card for you and for him if he has 99. Also, there now are two flush draws on the board. In that situation a flat call scares me a lot. He is basically telling you he's not afraid of this board. And when the river completes the club flush, there is not much left you beat. You lose to aces, kings and queens, you lose to AQ/KQ, you lose to A/images/graemlins/club.gifK/images/graemlins/club.gif, in fact to any two clubs. The only hands you beat here are totally misplayed offsuit Ace-Kings. If he was a maniac, you might even see just that, but a half-competent player has you beat here.

Fold preflop.
As played, bet the flop, fold to a raise.
As played, check/fold the turn.
As played, check/fold the river.

And stop changing plans in the middle of a hand, at least until you've become a lot better at it.

[molotom]

<u>OP rivered the 89TJQ straight</u>

[VayaConDios]

[ QUOTE ]
<u>OP rivered the 89TJQ straight</u>

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, the one thing I do like about this hand is the river shove, because I think you get a crying call from a ton of hands that are within villain's range and which hero beats.

[wallenborn]

See, that's what happens when i try to post before reaching my usual caffeine level. Push river. And don't draw to gutshots.

[valence]

You bet out on the flop so you don't give him odds on the flush draw. Unless of course you don't think there is a chance he is drawing. Also, If you bet out and he raises again then you are likely done with the hand.

Is betting out to reduce odds\gain information wrong here?

[ZingZhang]

Love some of the debate here. Though more than a little confused that most people missed the straight lol. I didn't think there was a great chance he was drawing to the flush, felt it was likely a pair,AK or probably an overpair. The fact I drew out on the river I don't really see as important, it happened as villain decided to play his KK (nh Wallenborn) so passively, I fully expected to get raised on turn, confirming my thoughts and happily folding. That's the plan change I guess, as when he didn't raise, I hit a bit of a miricle card and shoved, for Vaya's reasons.

So...betting out on the undercard flop vs a pf re-raiser, then folding to a raise = std? If so, I assume a PSB is fine? I ask as this seems to give villain an opportunity to simply call, then you're left with more difficult decisions OOP on the turn and river

[ZingZhang]

Bump for the evening crew, ty