Top 2 pair on draw heavy board ($50nl)

[myke11]

Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.25/$0.50 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh))

SB: $50.20
Hero (BB): $50.00
UTG: $49.15
MP: $51.55
CO: $44.25
BTN: $50.75

Preflop: Hero is dealt K/images/graemlins/heart.gif Q/images/graemlins/club.gif (6 Players)
UTG calls $0.50, MP calls $0.50, CO calls $0.50, BTN folds, SB calls $0.25, Hero checks

Flop: ($2.50) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif K/images/graemlins/spade.gif (5 Players)
SB checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $2.50</font>, UTG folds, <font color="red">MP raises to $8.00</font>, 2 folds
Hero...?

Villian is 21/17/4 over 250hands (i have him as a 2buyin winner over that time period). Im not sure how to play this flop... I tend to lead towards a 3bet, perhaps to $16, but i dont know if thats bad.
Who just calls and why?

If you just call what do you do on a safe turn? Are you trying to get the $$ in or lose the minimum?

If you 3bet, do you have to call if he 4 shoves getting 3-1?

[Reef]

sometimes I raise pf big there , check is ok

---

I typically 3 bet big on flop

[myke11]

so if you 3 bet i assume youre calling the shove, what size 3 bet do you like?

[rakemenot]

I just call MPs raise. A low turncard i I´ll make my move, a potbet. Those hands are always har to play without read or recognizing the opponent.

[Reef]

I prob make it like $28-$30 and instacall a push

[myke11]

so you donk the turn for a pot sized bet?.... if he shoves over you do you call?

[Reef]

that's fine once in awhile .. but on this board just SO many turn cards suck. If it's a reg that I play with a TON , maybe once in awhile I'll just call the raise and get it in on a safe turn card as more of a deception type play.

[myke11]

wow $28-$30 is a huge 3bet, are you just doing that as opposed to like 16 or 18 to commit yourself?

[rakemenot]

Everyone seems to like the line of 3-bet. Why not just flat call?

[Reef]

[ QUOTE ]
wow $28-$30 is a huge 3bet, are you just doing that as opposed to like 16 or 18 to commit yourself?

[/ QUOTE ]

hate a 3bet of $16-18 .. draws still have odds to call and stack sizes are akward if a bad turn card comes.

[Chomp]

[ QUOTE ]
Everyone seems to like the line of 3-bet. Why not just flat call?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it is because a 3b is the best value line with a hand that is ahead of villain's range now but which has bad reverse implied odds.

Another way to say this is that villain will call now with a lot of worse hands, but these hands are more likely to improve later than ours is, so our equity is at it's height on the flop. Hence, get the value in now.

Finally, we 3b as it might induce him to push over us with draws.

That's my understanding anyway - open to correction.

[myke11]

seems legit i dont see how a large 3bet 'induces' a shove...

[Chomp]

[ QUOTE ]
seems legit i dont see how a large 3bet 'induces' a shove...

[/ QUOTE ]

Er, villain says to himself "Screw it, I have an open ender with lots of dead money, let's go".

No?

[KEW]

[ QUOTE ]
I prob make it like $28-$30 and instacall a push

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not just shove???? A raise to $30 will leave only about $20 behind and a $60+ pot...I think if villain will call a raise he'll call a shove with the same range????

What kinda range can we put on villain here??? Villain is 21/17(apparently a solid winner) limped behind PF and is raising a draw heavy board...

[myke11]

well in the actual hand i 3 bet to 18 and he shoved i called, and he showed me ak.... woooo i love limpers