"miracles"...

[shhhnake_eyes]

what exactly are miracles? I think most people would define this as something happening out of the ordinary that creates something better, as a loose definition.

Christians thank God for miracles. Ex. Thank God my brother didn't die in that car crash, the hood of his car was smashed in where he was sitting. It is a miracle.
I am sure this has happened to Atheists too. Who can they thank for their "miracle"?


Wouldn't that be MORE of a miracle if he dies? After all, we are just serving here to go to a HIGHER place. Shouldnt, when someone dies, we say its a miracle??

[Matt R.]

If he died in a horrible car accident, then it wouldn't be out of the ordinary. Your last question contradicted your own definition of a miracle.

[shhhnake_eyes]

I dont understand. Maybe I mistype of didnt explain clearly.

A miracle creates something better.
We are serving here to go to heaven.
Wouldn't dying NO MATTER HOW, eg. a car accident, (as long as not suicide as that is a sin) be a miracle, therefore, living through it would be no miracle at all.
Ofcourse you could say living would mean you could help other people, but I mean in general, shouldnt people say its a miracle when someone dies?

As an aside, I was wondering how Christians who viewed atheists surviving a horrible car accident as a miracle

[Lestat]

A miracle (as I understand it), is some event (usually good), which cannot be explained through rational means.

A bleeding statue is a miracle until a logical physical explanation is given. If you're dying mother needed a life saving operation, but didn't have money and you found a suitcase full of a million dollars, you might consider that a miracle.

While many things go unexplained, atheists generally do not believe in divine miracles. Just because we don't know what the reason is, doesn't mean there isn't one.

[Prodigy54321]

/word

[shhhnake_eyes]

[ QUOTE ]
A miracle (as I understand it), is some event (usually good), which cannot be explained through rational means.

A bleeding statue is a miracle until a logical physical explanation is given. If you're dying mother needed a life saving operation, but didn't have money and you found a suitcase full of a million dollars, you might consider that a miracle.

While many things go unexplained, atheists generally do not believe in divine miracles. Just because we don't know what the reason is, doesn't mean there isn't one.

[/ QUOTE ]

But i mean the bleeding mother... Shouldn't the overall miracle be that she dies and doesnt get the money? Seeing how thats the best possible outcome-- her going to heaven. I think maybe people perceive TRUE miracles wrong in that case.
A miracle usually happens when a situation is going bad and turns out better by someone having a better LIFE. Shouldnt the miracle be them dying? I dont hear anyone saying that its a miracle that so and so is dead.. no it usually is a miracle that they are still alive.

Also, I know atheists dont believe in divine miracles. My point is, if the same situation about the mother happened to an atheist as opposed to a Christian, what would be the explanation of that, (according to the Christians).

[Prodigy54321]

you're looking for an explaination that isn't there.

the bottom line is that whether atheist or not, things will happen as they will..with the same frequency and probability no matter if you pray to God or not. I don't know of any evidence to contradict this statement.

EDIT: and I believe that the standard explaination of christians is that God is responsible for all things GOOD, by nature.

as far as people saying "It's a miracle from God that he survived"...I know it doesn't make much sense...as with most religious beliefs.

[BCPVP]

[ QUOTE ]
A miracle creates something better.

[/ QUOTE ]
A miracle is not just creating something better.

In this context, this seems to be the correct definition of miracle:

mir·a·cle Audio pronunciation of "miracle" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (mr-kl)
n.

1. An event that appears inexplicable by the laws of nature and so is held to be supernatural in origin or an act of God.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=miracle

I think you're confusing several definitions of miracle. In English, it is okay to say "It's a miracle he survived" when by miracle you mean something amazing.

[ QUOTE ]
As an aside, I was wondering how Christians who viewed atheists surviving a horrible car accident as a miracle

[/ QUOTE ]
Surviving an accident is probably not a miracle in a divine sense.

[Lestat]

I don't see your point about death being a miracle. People die every minute of every day and there is nothing unusual or miraculous about it.

An atheist would view the mother situation as one of coincidental good fortune, but would not attribute it to a miracle of divine intervention.

[maurile]

[ QUOTE ]
what exactly are miracles?

[/ QUOTE ]
I've never seen a definition of "miracle" that was self-consistent and made any sense. (Usually, people talk of miracles as violating the laws of physics, but that's an oxymoron. If something happens, then any law of physics that says it can't happen is incorrect -- and therefore not a law of physics in the first place.)

[hmkpoker]

A miracle is something that a Christian says is a miracle.

[hmkpoker]

[ QUOTE ]
I've never seen a definition of "miracle" that was self-consistent and made any sense. (Usually, people talk of miracles as violating the laws of physics, but that's an oxymoron. If something happens, then any law of physics that says it can't happen is incorrect -- and therefore not a law of physics in the first place.)

[/ QUOTE ]

I want to have your babies.

[Metric]

[ QUOTE ]

I've never seen a definition of "miracle" that was self-consistent and made any sense. (Usually, people talk of miracles as violating the laws of physics, but that's an oxymoron. If something happens, then any law of physics that says it can't happen is incorrect -- and therefore not a law of physics in the first place.)

[/ QUOTE ]
That's a rather amazing statement -- I will seize the opportunity to be the first. Please cite this histoic post in future discussions. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

The way you have implicitly defined "physics" above means that God (if he exists) is included in the definition of physics. The connotation of "miracle" implies the work of God. Therefore, a "miracle" is a physical event that is allowed only through physical interaction of "everything else" with "God."

How do I detect a miracle? Roughly in the same way I detect a neutrino (a ghostly particle that is notoriously hard to detect) -- something was observed to happen, and by our understand of the laws of physics it could not have been anything else -- thus it is reasonable to assume that it was a neutrino.

[maurile]

[ QUOTE ]
The connotation of "miracle" implies the work of God. Therefore, a "miracle" is a physical event that is allowed only through physical interaction of "everything else" with "God."

[/ QUOTE ]
I've considered a similar definition before -- that a miracle is something that only a god can do. But that doesn't help since I've never seen a definition of "god" that was self-consistent and made any sense. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The connotation of "miracle" implies the work of God. Therefore, a "miracle" is a physical event that is allowed only through physical interaction of "everything else" with "God."

[/ QUOTE ]
I've considered a similar definition before -- that a miracle is something that only a god can do. But that doesn't help since I've never seen a definition of "god" that was self-consistent and made any sense. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
Sounds like the basis for a definition:

A miracle is something thats inconsistent and makes no sense but happens anyway.

chez