JJ Extracting value

[RobTheCrook]

MP is 23/16/3.6 over about 80 hands, he's reraised me a couple of times PF like this, but it hasn't been to a showdown. I was at a loss on how to extract maximum value from this hand.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Button ($38.60)
SB ($24)
BB ($18.65)
Hero ($41.45)
MP ($72.45)
CO ($22.35)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $1.25</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises to $4.5</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, Hero calls $3.25.

Flop: ($9.35) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP checks.

Turn: ($9.35) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $3</font>, MP calls $3.

River: ($15.35) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $12</font>, MP folds.

Final Pot: $27.35

[Peter Harris]

i may c/r the river there if i know more about villain.

[Ikaika]

[ QUOTE ]
i may c/r the river there if i know more about villain.

[/ QUOTE ]

[monkover]

I think it´s fine but what was your initial plan on the flop? checking in the belief that villain would cbet and you can c/r? If this in fact was your plan would you have folded to a 3bet? (sorry for this veryobvious question just want to know rob´s plan for the whole hand and different scenarios...
I´d bet a little more when the j comes off though but I think it´s fine as played!

[RobTheCrook]

I felt like MP was holding AQ+ and would check behind on the river here. I thought my only chance was if he thought I was stabbing and his A high was the best hand.

Does this change anything? Should I bet less on the river?

[Ikaika]

I totally didn't see how small you bet the turn. That needs to be 6-ish.

Betting half pot on the river is more likely to get him to call, but I doubt he calls a bet with A-high here.

[monkover]

the question imo is why you didn´t bet the flop? you´ll find that villain calls here with2 overs very often and it has the additional benefit that you can find out cheaply where you are at... it´s quite likely villain is hoping to spike a pair and is calling two bets on flop and turn... this way you can get some more maoney in the pot

[tannenj]

[ QUOTE ]
the question imo is why you didn´t bet the flop? you´ll find that villain calls here with2 overs very often and it has the additional benefit that you can find out cheaply where you are at... it´s quite likely villain is hoping to spike a pair and is calling two bets on flop and turn... this way you can get some more maoney in the pot

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't think so, sir.

[monkover]

why not?

[Marshall28]

lead turn stronger, at least 6 bucks ... u look like u r scared he is going to fold now that u have a strong hand. u gotta remember that u will never win big pots w/ big hands if u bet so small w/ them. attempting a c/r on the river is silly. villain hasnt bet since pf and has given u no reason to think he is going to bet the river. bet half pot and hope u can get value from A high, however, it is doubtful. only street u can most likely get value from villain here is the turn and you only got yourself 3 dollars.

[tannenj]

[ QUOTE ]
why not?

[/ QUOTE ]

i just think the opposite of all of the reasoning in that post, really. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

the villain reraised us preflop -- do you often lead into the preflop raiser? what about grabbing his cbet?

he has taggy stats. why do you expect him to call two barrels with overcards?

betting/raising "to see where you're at" is bad strategy; there are two reasons to bet/raise: for value, and as a bluff. any information you get as a result is icing. furthermore, if i'm villain, i raise a flop donkbet with atc in this spot; you're not going to get any information against a solid player, you're just going to lose a cbet or get pushed off what might be the best hand.

[Sotiria]

Heh, when I read the hand the first time, I read it as you checking behind on the flop and didn't get it.

Anyways, bet more on the turn so that you can bet more on the river if he calls /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[monkover]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
why not?

[/ QUOTE ]

i just think the opposite of all of the reasoning in that post, really. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

the villain reraised us preflop -- do you often lead into the preflop raiser? what about grabbing his cbet?

he has taggy stats. why do you expect him to call two barrels with overcards?

betting/raising "to see where you're at" is bad strategy; there are two reasons to bet/raise: for value, and as a bluff. any information you get as a result is icing. furthermore, if i'm villain, i raise a flop donkbet with atc in this spot; you're not going to get any information against a solid player, you're just going to lose a cbet or get pushed off what might be the best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

sounds good that´s why i asked what the plan would be if villain cbet on the flop... would you raise? doesn´t that fold out any worse hands than ours? would you call and let him see a free card if he in fact has two overs?

[Marshall28]

agree w/ tannenj.

[Ikaika]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
why not?

[/ QUOTE ]

i just think the opposite of all of the reasoning in that post, really. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

the villain reraised us preflop -- do you often lead into the preflop raiser? what about grabbing his cbet?

he has taggy stats. why do you expect him to call two barrels with overcards?

betting/raising "to see where you're at" is bad strategy; there are two reasons to bet/raise: for value, and as a bluff. any information you get as a result is icing. furthermore, if i'm villain, i raise a flop donkbet with atc in this spot; you're not going to get any information against a solid player, you're just going to lose a cbet or get pushed off what might be the best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice post sir.

[Marshall28]

monkover ... CC c-bet and check turn

[tannenj]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
why not?

[/ QUOTE ]

i just think the opposite of all of the reasoning in that post, really. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

the villain reraised us preflop -- do you often lead into the preflop raiser? what about grabbing his cbet?

he has taggy stats. why do you expect him to call two barrels with overcards?

betting/raising "to see where you're at" is bad strategy; there are two reasons to bet/raise: for value, and as a bluff. any information you get as a result is icing. furthermore, if i'm villain, i raise a flop donkbet with atc in this spot; you're not going to get any information against a solid player, you're just going to lose a cbet or get pushed off what might be the best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

sounds good that´s why i asked what the plan would be if villain cbet on the flop... would you raise? doesn´t that fold out any worse hands than ours? would you call and let him see a free card if he in fact has two overs?

[/ QUOTE ]

to be honest, i'm not sure how crazy 10 nl villains are playing these days.

i definitely check the flop; after that i'm either calling or raising. in bigger games, you can check-shove for value here against a lot of dudes with the villain's stats (though it's still kind of thin). history/metagame can make this line more/less appealing, obviously.

i suspect the guys at these stakes don't get out of line as much and aren't as likely to bet-call with stuff like TT-99, so i'd lean towards check-calling.

it sucks that a hand like AK has six outs against our hand, but i think protecting our hand is unimportant in this case relative to extraction.

this is a tricky spot, no doubt.