AAAAAAAW! Die plz.

[Fiksdal]

Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.25/$0.50 Blinds - 5 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh))

SB: $55.40
<font color="black">Hero (BB): $65.45</font>
UTG: $45.50
CO: $41.35
BTN: $106.15

<font color="black">Reads: </font><font color="blue">Villain is 42/10/1.2 over 56 hands.</font>

<font color="black">Preflop:</font> Hero is dealt A/images/graemlins/spade.gif Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif (5 Players)
UTG folds, CO calls $0.50, BTN calls $0.50, SB calls $0.25, <font color="red">Hero raises to $3.25</font>, CO calls $2.75, 2 folds

<font color="black">Flop:</font> ($7.50) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif 4/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $6.50</font>, CO calls $6.50

<font color="black">Turn:</font> ($20.50) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 Players)


Line suggestions here?

[prodonkey]

check.. he's not that agressive, he might give u a free card, or he may bet a very small amount.

[wikemang]

c/c a reasonable bet

[dimeetrees]

pot control, c/c something reasonable

[yntm3]

call pre-flop from bb

[NameAgame]

Raise pf i obv ok.

[homeslice]

deleted

[tiger_hall]

[ QUOTE ]
call pre-flop from bb

[/ QUOTE ]
I would consider raising this on the reason that everyone has limped in and shown little strength... by raising you could pick the pot up here and also if you get a caller you are going to be ahead...

[Vyse]

This looks like a very easy double barrel situation.

[bozzer]

[ QUOTE ]
This looks like a very easy double barrel situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

it does?

[mrw8419]

[ QUOTE ]
This looks like a very easy double barrel situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what I was going to say.

[allingator]

You probably have 15 live outs (I don't know how they could have a 4 here) with your flush draw and over cards so a double barrel looks like a good line.

[Ikaika]

Its not so much a double barrel as a semibluff now. You have the NFD, and he was calling your flop bet with any pair. He'll fold a lot of underpairs here, and if he calls you still have 9 outs to your flush.

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This looks like a very easy double barrel situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

it does?

[/ QUOTE ]

There's certainly a case to be made, if Villain will sometimes now fold a hand like 66.

Let's say he does have 66. That gives us 14 or 15 outs, depending on whether one of his 6's is a spade or not. So we're looking at about 1/3 equity.

Let's also say if we check, he'll bet $10. A call of this bet is easy, but Villain does make ~$3.33 on the bet.

If instead we bet $15, the bet costs us $5 if we get called, but it should be obvious that he doesn't have to fold very often to make this bet more profitable than a check-call of a $10 bet from him.

I know Villain could have AT or better instead, and he won't fold those hands, but at the same time it's also possible he just has a worse flush draw and is drawing to 4 outs, and we have a profitable bet against that (well, so long as the pot doesn't end up getting stolen from us on the river).

I think the biggest question is how much folding equity we actually have, and I'm not sure of the answer. But we should consider also that Villain could have a hand like AK or AQ that he didn't want to give up on a nothing flop.

[Waingro]

[ QUOTE ]
This looks like a very easy double barrel situation.

[/ QUOTE ]
What hands does villain fold on the turn that we want him to fold? I think if he folds we had the best hand. If we c/c turn he might take a weak stab at the pot with worse or price us in with some marginal holding. That 5 isn´t exactly a scarecard for any holding he has.

[barryc83]

im not double barrelling here, he folds nothing that he called the flop with. he'll call you down with 22 here. id check and call a small half pottish bet and fold to real heat. people never fold anything on this board man, even tags, I get looked up all day here.

[Lurker.]

c/c is my preferred line. 2 barreling certainly isnt bad though imo.

ps, how reliable is the BK internet connect?

[hoyasaxa]

Double barrelling here is really really bad. If he had enough of a hand to call the PF raise and then the flop bet hes probably just going to move in. I almost like a c/f here. But Im definately checking either way, maybe calling anything less than a PSB.

[supersix]

[ QUOTE ]
This looks like a very easy double barrel situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

What's a double barrel situation? I tried googling it, no avail. Is it similar to a semi-bluff?

[ama0330]

A semibluff is still a bluff, ie. the main objective is to get him to fold. At this point, even if you do have a lot of outs, you still have Ace high (and your ace could well be dead). More importantly, you have little or no FE because he has no reason to fold any overpair to you. I would c/c.

[Vyse]

[ QUOTE ]
Double barrelling here is really really bad. If he had enough of a hand to call the PF raise and then the flop bet hes probably just going to move in. I almost like a c/f here. But Im definately checking either way, maybe calling anything less than a PSB.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, you are insanely weak tight. Dude, would you fold to this flop bet with 55? 66? 77? 88? Would you move all in with them? Hell no.

[mrw8419]

[ QUOTE ]
A semibluff is still a bluff, ie. the main objective is to get him to fold. At this point, even if you do have a lot of outs, you still have Ace high (and your ace could well be dead). More importantly, you have little or no FE because he has no reason to fold any overpair to you. I would c/c.

[/ QUOTE ]

Villain limp called p/f we can take overpairs out of his range.

Villain is also a 42/10 and probably peels this flop with so much that I hate c/c turn only for villains 89o to hit a pair and win the pot.

[TheRenaissance]

[ QUOTE ]
This looks like a very easy double barrel situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not at all.
Our equity goes wayyyy down on that turn card.
I'd cc as others have said.

Hold'em Simulation
3,784 trials (Exhaustive)
board: Ts4s4c5d
Hand Pot equity
AsQs 29.65%
22-JJ,T*s,45s,46s 70.35%

[TheRenaissance]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A semibluff is still a bluff, ie. the main objective is to get him to fold. At this point, even if you do have a lot of outs, you still have Ace high (and your ace could well be dead). More importantly, you have little or no FE because he has no reason to fold any overpair to you. I would c/c.

[/ QUOTE ]

Villain limp called p/f we can take overpairs out of his range.

Villain is also a 42/10 and probably peels this flop with so much that I hate c/c turn only for villains 89o to hit a pair and win the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is absolutely no reason to worry about being 'outdrawn' on this board.

[Check_The_Nuts]

I could see an arguement for bet/fold check/call or check/raise here. However versus someone this passive I don't like check/raise because he's probably not betting anything on the turn that he intends to fold (even if its JT or something). This is mostly judged from his preflop numbers. So I think its better to either check/call or bet/fold.

So when figuring out which one, I think it depends a lot on how often you've been double barrelling/your table image/how often you raise out of the blinds. Like a flow-of-the game problem. I'd probably bet here 30% of the time and check the other 70% due to the guys tendency to likely bet less than we would bet, the fact he could have a 4 (tho its highly unlikely), or you might snap off bluffs where your hand&gt;his hand. I mean the guy plays 42% of his hands, and pocket pairs are somewhat rare with a range that large. So your more likely to be looking at ace high/weak ten. And you may very well be 50/50 on the turn, but he will probably call off some amount on a queen or ace river. He may also give you ilttle credit for the flush draw.

[jmgambler]

Check

[0evg0]

wow, i'm willing the bet that the Omaha High forum as a whole probably happens to give better nl 6max advice than this forum.

this is the easiest pfr, flop lead, turn c/r ever

and dont even bother debating because your alternative is 10x less profitable than this line

[barryc83]

lol c/ring this turn is absolutely terrible against this guy. getting snapped off with 66 is fun.

[TheRenaissance]

[ QUOTE ]
wow, i'm willing the bet that the Omaha High forum as a whole probably happens to give better nl 6max advice than this forum.

this is the easiest pfr, flop lead, turn c/r ever

and dont even bother debating because your alternative is 10x less profitable than this line

[/ QUOTE ]

i am willing to bet you havent played these games in a while.
we are a significant dog to Tx/any pair - and he aint folding his pair.

[Fiksdal]

[ QUOTE ]
wow, i'm willing the bet that the Omaha High forum as a whole probably happens to give better nl 6max advice than this forum.

this is the easiest pfr, flop lead, turn c/r ever

and dont even bother debating because your alternative is 10x less profitable than this line

[/ QUOTE ]

If we CR here villain pot commits himself with a range that we are behind.

CF &gt; CR

[Vyse]

I need to game select better if you guys seriously think he's felting all pairs just because the board is paired.

[0evg0]

wrong

[0evg0]

[ QUOTE ]
lol c/ring this turn is absolutely terrible against this guy. getting snapped off with 66 is fun.

[/ QUOTE ]

Glad we know that he not only would call with 66, but in fact has 66 and is going to bet/call 66 on a T445 board with it.

If only I had such telling information such as "Reads: Villain is 42/10/1.2 over 56 hands." on every opponent I faced...

And this has nothing do with buy-in level. This is as easy a c/shove as there is, and you have a lot of time left at uNL if you don't at least see why it's correct in practice, if you maybe don't feel comfortable making this play yet.

[KEW]

[ QUOTE ]
Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.25/$0.50 Blinds - 5 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh))

SB: $55.40
<font color="black">Hero (BB): $65.45</font>
UTG: $45.50
CO: $41.35
BTN: $106.15

<font color="black">Reads: </font><font color="blue">Villain is 42/10/1.2 over 56 hands.</font>

<font color="black">Preflop:</font> Hero is dealt A/images/graemlins/spade.gif Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif (5 Players)
UTG folds, CO calls $0.50, BTN calls $0.50, SB calls $0.25, <font color="red">Hero raises to $3.25</font>, CO calls $2.75, 2 folds

<font color="black">Flop:</font> ($7.50) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif 4/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $6.50</font>, CO calls $6.50

<font color="black">Turn:</font> ($20.50) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 Players)


Line suggestions here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Smallish blocking bet of about $7..This passive villain is unlikely to raise us and exploit this blocking bet...If villain shoves we will have to fold and wasted $7..But OTOH if villain shoved our turn block he would've bet enough on the turn to price us out of our draw anyway...

[KEW]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
lol c/ring this turn is absolutely terrible against this guy. getting snapped off with 66 is fun.

[/ QUOTE ]

Glad we know that he not only would call with 66, but in fact has 66 and is going to bet/call 66 on a T445 board with it.

If only I had such telling information such as "Reads: Villain is 42/10/1.2 over 56 hands." on every opponent I faced...

And this has nothing do with buy-in level. This is as easy a c/shove as there is, and you have a lot of time left at uNL if you don't at least see why it's correct in practice, if you maybe don't feel comfortable making this play yet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Stacks are not NEARLY deep enough for a check/shove to be the best play...Checking may not be bad because a passive villain will often give us the free card..BUT a shove is terrible..Look at stack sizes...

[0evg0]

that's because OP [censored] up his turn bet

[Emperor Norton]

I don't see why it's correct in practice. Could you explain? What range of hands are you making this move with on this kind of board?

[ama0330]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
lol c/ring this turn is absolutely terrible against this guy. getting snapped off with 66 is fun.

[/ QUOTE ]

Glad we know that he not only would call with 66, but in fact has 66 and is going to bet/call 66 on a T445 board with it.

If only I had such telling information such as "Reads: Villain is 42/10/1.2 over 56 hands." on every opponent I faced...

And this has nothing do with buy-in level. This is as easy a c/shove as there is, and you have a lot of time left at uNL if you don't at least see why it's correct in practice, if you maybe don't feel comfortable making this play yet.

[/ QUOTE ]

justify yourself please.

[sirklas]

I would definitely b/f here. The bet should be in the amount of app. 7 $ to get the right odds for the FD.

He must have min. a pair now, perhaps a set. If we don`t believe him a set, the right bet would be pot IMO. But a too risky play, because he could raise us AI and we are PC. If we don`t hit our A or Q or a flush, we lose all and paied too much (wrong odds!).

@ 0evg0: Consider the stacks twice. If villian would have 20 $ in stack, the c/shove would be the right move. Like you recommend it, it`s a -EV play.

Despite that, we are not sure if we beat him with a pair of Quees; he could hold AA or KK.

sirklas /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[bozzer]

evg it's nice you're posting in uNL, but please be less patronising and provide some reasons why c/r is good here.

I for one am all to eager to make high variance plays but I can't see that we have enough FE to make this work when our equity against his range is probably around 30% (just a guess, don't flame).

[mrw8419]

[ QUOTE ]
evg it's nice you're posting in uNL, but please be less patronising and provide some reasons why c/r is good here.

I for one am all to eager to make high variance plays but I can't see that we have enough FE to make this work when our equity against his range is probably around 30% (just a guess, don't flame).

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe our fold equity is quite a bit higher than people are thinking. The only hands I see villain calling with on the turn is a 10, 88, 99 heavily discounting 88 and 99 due to no pfr. I see 40+vpip donks peel the flop with super wide ranges but they seem to call turn bets with a lot narrower range.

I would only c/shove against a thinking player, theres a good reason its called a stack a donk line.

[Chomp]

[ QUOTE ]
I would only c/shove against a thinking player, theres a good reason its called a stack a donk line.

[/ QUOTE ]


Classic stack a donk is a move you make with a strong made hand, not a semi-bluff hand looking for FE.

[Fiksdal]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would only c/shove against a thinking player, theres a good reason its called a stack a donk line.

[/ QUOTE ]


Classic stack a donk is a move you make with a strong made hand, not a semi-bluff hand looking for FE.

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/heart.gif

[0evg0]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would only c/shove against a thinking player, theres a good reason its called a stack a donk line.

[/ QUOTE ]


Classic stack a donk is a move you make with a strong made hand, not a semi-bluff hand looking for FE.

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/heart.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

If we had AA here, c/shove would not be the best option.

As for stacks, he's not limp/calling flop, calling behind flop, and then firing a PSB on the turn. That doesn't happen.

What will happen is either:

a) he checks behind and we can blow him off 77 on most rivers, or we hit an out
b) he bets like 12 into 21 and we shove for his 32 total, and folds his 77 because RANDOMS DO NOT JUST BET/CALL WITH LIKE 4TH PAIR JUST BECAUSE YOU HAPPEN TO HAVE A DRAW THIS TIME. THEY DO NOT KNOW THIS, AND THEY WILL FOLD.
c) he bet/calls with JT or whatever and OH NOES! WE ONLY HAVE LIKE 15 OUTS AND ONLY WIN 35% OF THE TIME!

do the math, he never has better than JT here, and we're 35% to win when he does call. do the math and tell me how often he has to fold for c/shove to be profitable. then tell me he doesn't fold twice as often as he needs to.

if you disagree with me, you're wrong. and you'd be better off reading and asking why then defending your incorrect understanding.

[orig!naL]

I would C/C on turn. The only problem with a C/C is that our hand becomes very transparent when the flush hits and we bet out. If we were to double-barrel here, we might be a bit more disguised when the river is a spade.

[ActionStan]

So, as I understand it, this is a more profitable line as opposed to PSB (where we price ourselves into calling any shove) because we often let the villain put money in the pot prior to blowing him off his hand. Seems like the response from the villain would be more or less the same given your read (folds 77, maybe JT (this is NL50), shoves a few unlikely hands with a 4 and some other top pair hands). True, not true?

Also, suppose villain fires PSB. Are we still shoving? Seems like we're pretty solidly in 35% land at this point, but that it is also more possible that villain is on the same draw and we actually have the best hand. This does seem like a less likely scenario, but his stack is really working against us here. I'm less inclined to shoving in this case, but do you think this case happens so rarely that it isn't worth the worry?

[orig!naL]

[ QUOTE ]

b) he bets like 12 into 21 and we shove for his 32 total, and folds his 77 because RANDOMS DO NOT JUST BET/CALL WITH LIKE 4TH PAIR JUST BECAUSE YOU HAPPEN TO HAVE A DRAW THIS TIME. THEY DO NOT KNOW THIS, AND THEY WILL FOLD.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't agree with this at all. Stacks are not deep enough, there is a very very good chance he will call your turn shove. Even a donk can figure out that the turn card has helped no one.

[Check_The_Nuts]

0evg0 -

I feel a check/raise all in is really bad for a couple of reasons. For one, if he bets large, like near potsized, then your FE is 0 and you shold probably fold. So you would have been better off betting some blocker-type amuont, like half pot or something.

However, if he bets small. His range is so wide that he is more likely to have hit the ten than have an underpair. Suppose he plays a strategy (if u can call it that) of betting with 7T+ and 88/99. 88 and 99 do not make up a large part of his range. He is also likely to think his top pair is the nuts on this board, and put you on a draw. So if he does bet, he's going to bet because he isn't scared of your hand. If he is scared of your hand, he's more likely to check and then call a river bet.

ALthough honestly these guys are highly unpredictable and make moves that don't make sense some of the time. However, without any reads that this particular player floats a lot or anything, I don't like check/raise all in. Only if he calls flops something like 30-40% of the time do I like that line.

At higher levels I completely agree that check/shove is by far the best line. Even against this same villian. Simply because he has to call a larger amount of money (ie he's more likely to be scared money).

I'm not a big fan of the one-&gt;two sentence replies in this thread (in general). It feels like a lot of noise where one person says one thing then everyone just jumps on board.

I honestly see a lot more merit to a bet flop/bet turn/bet river line. However you have to bet size well throughout the hand to have enough lefto n the river for it to have any FE whatsoever. I think this line would be better than a stack-a-donk on the turn versus an actual donk.

[sirklas]

[/ QUOTE ][...]c) he bet/calls with JT or whatever and OH NOES! WE ONLY HAVE LIKE 15 OUTS AND ONLY WIN 35% OF THE TIME!

do the math, he never has better than JT here, and we're 35% to win when he does call. do the math and tell me how often he has to fold for c/shove to be profitable. then tell me he doesn't fold twice as often as he needs to.[...]

[/ QUOTE ]

Better do the math???

Ok, Pot at Turn: $20,50

We bet x on turn, he raises us AI and we shove it in.
Pot after his AIR is $20,50 $+x+$36,65$= $57,15+x

To determine the pot odds, we don`t need the x.

So we pay $36,65 (his all in bet) to get a pot of $57,15

(36,65/57,15) = 64 %

So we pay about 64 % for a possibility of 33 % (15 outs = 15/46= 32,6 %) that we might (KK,AA) win the hand?

Poor!

Correct me, if I am wrong...

sirklas

[jimpo]

[ QUOTE ]
call pre-flop from bb

[/ QUOTE ]

nononono

[woohoo88]

We're getting nearly 2:1 for stacks on the turn. If we're like 30% or so vs his range we don't need much FE to make this profitiable.

Whether or not we have even a little FE here I don't know for sure. I don't have enough hands at this level to determine that vs a random 42/10/1.5'er.

I'm guessing evg is right though.

[0evg0]

[ QUOTE ]
We're getting nearly 2:1 for stacks on the turn. If we're like 30% or so vs his range we don't need much FE to make this profitiable.

[/ QUOTE ]

We're getting 27% vs like the worst possible hand he could have (QT), if he calls a c/shove every time.

[woohoo88]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
We're getting nearly 2:1 for stacks on the turn. If we're like 30% or so vs his range we don't need much FE to make this profitiable.

[/ QUOTE ]

We're getting 27% vs like the worst possible hand he could have (QT), if he calls a c/shove every time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. So I rather like a CRAI here.

I'm not sure if you were disagreeing with me or just reiterating.

[barryc83]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
lol c/ring this turn is absolutely terrible against this guy. getting snapped off with 66 is fun.

[/ QUOTE ]

Glad we know that he not only would call with 66, but in fact has 66 and is going to bet/call 66 on a T445 board with it.

If only I had such telling information such as "Reads: Villain is 42/10/1.2 over 56 hands." on every opponent I faced...

And this has nothing do with buy-in level. This is as easy a c/shove as there is, and you have a lot of time left at uNL if you don't at least see why it's correct in practice, if you maybe don't feel comfortable making this play yet.

[/ QUOTE ]

i never said that he would bet or bet big, but if he bet folds the turn to a c/r, you had the best hand the overwhelming majority of the time. youre right we dont have a super solid read here, but hes 42/10 over like 55 hands, not great but apparently hes splashing a lot and he open limped the CO ffs. yes, "in practice" he should fold 77 there but Ive done this move too much and been snapped off a whole lot. it might be correct in practice but he doesnt fold his pp enough.

[0evg0]

how does limping CO = unable to fold 77?

total non sequitur