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View Full Version : Pooh Bah like: My opinion on what is holding us all back (tl;dr)


kaz2107
06-09-2007, 01:23 AM
This will be my 2nd post on moving up and that is because i think it is tha most important part of being here. [censored] this is micro. we should all be shooting to move to ssnl or higher asap. here is a link to the old one for those of you who are not retro or just forgot/missed it.

Moving Up To 100nl By Kaz2107 (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=microplnl&Number=8875005& Searchpage=1&Main=8871089&Words=kaz+%5C%2B100nl+%5 C%2Bmoving++%5C%2Bjourney&topic=&Search=true#Post8 875005)

I was reading one of my new Brand Jordan magazines while i was traveling to miami this week and this quote seemed to relate a ton how i am lookin at poker at the moment and one of the problems i see with so many that are struggling with poker and not having the success that others r having. It is from a man named Gentry Humphrey who is the category business director for footwear for brand jordan. The question was what he though the company needed and planned to do to stay on the top as one of the best shoe brands in the world. this is his answere:

"We look at the industry and i think this isnt just our industry; if you look at people who are successfull, they are not affraid of change. you take tiger tiger woods, who wins the 100th annual 1997 Masters by a record 12 strokes... and comes back the next year and changes his whole swing completely so that he can be better. he might have gone through a little bit of rough times to get their, but ultimatly the good ones do that and they find ways to reinivent themselves. and so really thats what we are going to do and people i think underestimate that. people will always say "if it aint broke dont fix it," but a lot of time you do have to fix it if you want to get to the next level and make it. eventually if you keep doing the same thing the wave is going to die out. if you figure out the way to change things up, you can hit new heights that you didnt even know existed. thats a big part of what our future is going to be; figure out a couple new ways to reinvent ourselves and so ive got some ideas on how we are going to do that. for some people its going to rub them wrong a little bit because it is change and you know whenever you have change some people dont except it. i think in the end just like the great ones we are going to prevail by making some very big changes."

This is one of the problems i see in so many. People who are unwilling to take chances and "fix what isnt broken." This is MICRO nl thus there is plenty to move on to. i understand that some people dont want to deal with the vairence of moving up and are content with how things are at 25nl or 50nl or w/e but there is little difference. as i have been moving up i cant tell too much of a change from even 50nl up to where i am now 200nl. i really dont see much of a change. there are a few more regs but still plenty of fish and plenty of bad regs who can be easily exploited. yes people get more aggressive but that is fine. they arent good aggressive so it doenst matter. the number of "good" aggros is few and far between (or else they too would have move up to bigger and better things)

i have heard lots of rumblings recently about party and havent paid much notice tbh. i saw ama made a post about it but since i live in US i didnt read it (sorry ama) so if this is tha same as wut he said sorry. so party isnt as easy as it used to be for some. i attribute a lot of that to people changing their game and adapting while other said "hmm 6bb/100 ship that [censored]. i am content with this and dont need to change a thing." while other were out their making adjustments and learning how to cope with the players where were content. some changed and others did not. that is horrible. u let tards catch up and will now have to put in more work to get ahead again. while this sounds crappy it isnt that big of a problem. u have 2p2 thus u r being feed knowledge on a silver plate. so easy if u r willing to work.

i honestly think there are a decent amount of posters here who have the ability to play as high as 200nl (probably higher but i cant say that since i have very few hands higher then this.) the problem i see is that people are falling into certain set backs that will not allow them to make this move and thus stay at a certain limit and as a micro player. altho this isnt the worst thing in the world it is rather rediculous because you are basically losing money by not moving up and who wants to just burn money over what i see to be elementary problems. here are a few things i notice that can be reasonably easy to correct imo.

1. Nut pedaling

-Yes this works GREAT at 50nl and u can 21283289 table playin 15/13 and be a good winner at 50nl. who cares tho really. imo i think the most profitable preflop stats to maximize your winrate is something around 24/20-26/22. if you can play that preflop range well and handle those amounts of hands postflop i think you are maximizing you value of playing at these stakes and against these fish. this is obv not that easy and takes time to adjust. yes it will suck at first and may not even be as profitable to begin but again who cares really. so u have a crappy month at 25 or 50nl. it will pay off 10 fold if u break even while getting used to play this new style for an entire month if tha next month u kill 50nl for 9bb/100 and are able to move up to 100nl towards the end of the month and have realtively the same success at that limit. take a step back to take 5 steps forward. Dont be scared to change. embrace it and love it. we should all be changing things EVERY sesh we play. none of us are that great (even tho gelford is +ev at almost everything /images/graemlins/wink.gif) and thus we should b lookin for perfection. this involves makin big changes at times. even tho you might b a solid winning player there is always merit in makin a change or two to your game in hopes that u get even better. yea it often will not work out perfectely at the begining but long term it is for the best. dont be short sighted. poker is a game of the long term and i think we all need to make choices that will reflec this idea and maximize our chances at the highest success.

when i first made the commitment to open my game and make a change from my normal 18/15/4 it was rough (and still at times is /images/graemlins/smile.gif) there are tons of things i wasnt used to thus had no idea how to approach them in the most +ev mannor. that is why it takes so much time and work to do this. there are infinite situations in poker and when u play more preflop u get in sooooo many new spots and there are sooooo many of them it take some time to play thru each of them a few times and realize how the tards at your table are actually responding. you have to have a feel for how people are playing back inorder for this to work and that can take a ton of time. thus i suggest...

2. Playing to many tables

- great you can 12 table. again tho it doesnt matter if u can 12 table 25nl. why not drop off to 5 or 6 tables and move up to 50nl. it is a +EV move long term. i kno that tons of people say "awww man tha regs suck balls and i take advantage of them all the time" but i have rarely seen many people who do this on a consistent basis. drop the number of tables you play and see how rediculously exploitable most people are. it is amazing how much money you can make from paying attention a bit more and owning those 12 tablers all night long while they wallow around at their 4 bb/100 and dont have a [censored] clue who you are and how badly u own them. i played the fewest amount of hands and hours last month and yet got much much better and had a better win rate then ever before. seems like a GREAT trade off to me.

3. play when you feel like playing

-the people who play their 50k hands a month just make me chuckle for the most part. i guarantee ur win rate suffers a ton because of this. yea everyone is tired or bored or burnt out or w/e at times. dont play when u feel like this. do sumthing else ffs. why play break even poker. take tha day off and do sumtin fun. life EV translates to poker EV. they relate whether u think so or not. it always makes tha down swings much less a problem when u kno u have other things u enjoy doing afterwards or w/e and u do infact have other things to do. just think quality over quantity. that is key. play video games or sumtin if u feel to tired to play well. it will work out better long term for poker and ur life if u do this.

4. overall nittyness

- i hear people sayin how they dont want tha swings of movin up and dont want the stress. YOU ARE BURNING MONEY!!! the next level isnt that much tougher and as long as you practice good bankroll management and dont have to live off the monies there is no reason to not make moves up. if u run crappy or w/e then move back down. it will make ur current level super easy and u will b ready to move up soon. the swings arent that bad and i am willing to bet if most of u didnt see wut limit u were playin/how much money u were playing and just seeing bbs u would b able to move up a limit or 2 instantely. it is a mental block that just needs to be overcome. we all love money here and there is no reason almost all of us shouldnt b movin up at a much quicker rate.

in conclusion i kno thie is kinda sporadic and a bit of a soap box but i really think most of you that i kno anything about are much better then the avg player at 100nl and 200nl. it is just a few minor things that are holding us back from what should be all of our goals... making more monies in less time. so i encourage u all to make changes and takes risks and look failure straight in the eye when it comes to poker because i think success will b that much better for us all.

hope this helps some people out and give some stuff for everyone to at least consider and think about. ive gotta get up in 5 hours to go down to key west with tha fam tomorow but i will answere questions on either thread as soon as i have some time and internet access so ask away.

dimeetrees
06-09-2007, 02:14 AM
very inspiring post, im trying to move up asap and at the same time not play too much to avoid burnout. I recently began analyzing every single big pot that i lost after every session and I've found it to be a huge improvement to my game. How many hands would u recommend to play daily ? Also im running 22/15/3.5 4tabling 25nl, is this appropriate for this level? Should i be looking at how i play big pots that i won as well as big pots that i lost?

Thanks again.

syn
06-09-2007, 02:35 AM
nice post, bookmarked /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Sweir
06-09-2007, 06:07 AM
Nice post kaz, I def agree with this.

Gelford
06-09-2007, 06:12 AM
Tooo many tables, not enough work and playing too much, when tired, pissed or otherwise not up for it.

- Guilty as charged /images/graemlins/smile.gif

jk1986
06-09-2007, 06:22 AM
Very nice post, you've inspired me to go back to the 26/23 that I used to play back on UB... I moved sites and started adding tables and playing 21/19, mainly because it was party and there were so many loose passives around. But now party is no more, I think its time to open up again and concentrate on a few tables, I definately think you are right that you do need to concentrate on a few tables every now again so that you can improve your game and adapt fully to different players. However, a friend of mine who has grinded from 25nl to 1000nl sweated me for a while and his first suggestion was that I needed to play more tables at once (I was playing 4 at the time).

Ignignokt
06-09-2007, 06:24 AM
Glad you called it "pooh-bah like" because actual Pooh-Bah posts should be in English (unless of course they're posted in the German forums).

Good, common sense stuff, although the "fix what isn't broken" part is not really helpful to people who are still working on a lot of stuff that IS broken. Unless it's reverse psychology or something.

ama0330
06-09-2007, 06:43 AM
vnh, i vote for sticky!

kaz2107
06-09-2007, 06:43 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Very nice post, you've inspired me to go back to the 26/23 that I used to play back on UB... I moved sites and started adding tables and playing 21/19, mainly because it was party and there were so many loose passives around. But now party is no more, I think its time to open up again and concentrate on a few tables, I definately think you are right that you do need to concentrate on a few tables every now again so that you can improve your game and adapt fully to different players. However, a friend of mine who has grinded from 25nl to 1000nl sweated me for a while and his first suggestion was that I needed to play more tables at once (I was playing 4 at the time).

[/ QUOTE ]my thought on playin less tables applies to the main problem with moving up. that being skill NOT bankroll. i really have never had the problem with my bankroll being too small to move up. yet found the problem being a. i wasnt good enough or (more likely) i didnt have the confidence/motivation to move up. so i have solved this by dropping tables and getting better/being more observant and being able to make more moves against the exploitable 20/5/1 type players which helped a ton. there r obv people who should b playin more tables (ie. if u r good enough and have bankroll problems and are lookin to move up quick there is obv no reason to 4 table. ill get to the other minor things later as im leavin to tha keys in a min and my mom is flippin out

Peter Harris
06-09-2007, 07:22 AM
I'm a very happy 23/17er who never plays more than 4 tables and exercises game selection.

I should move up /images/graemlins/frown.gif but not until i've logged 20k hands at 50nl, so I have 7k to go.

edit:

[ QUOTE ]
ill get to the other minor things later as im leavin to tha keys in a min and my mom is flippin out

[/ QUOTE ]

Poker first, as ever /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Chomp
06-09-2007, 08:31 AM
Good post Kaz.

You say you think 24/20-26/22 is optimal. I'll just comment that many Cardrunners pros are now saying that for uNL and SSNL, this is towards the absolute upper end of what is ideal. The concesus there is something closer to 19/16 or something like that.

I'm not saying they're right and you're wrong, I just thought I'd mention it. (Personally, I haven't formed a strong opinion on it one way or the other).

kaz2107
06-09-2007, 03:32 PM
[ QUOTE ]
very inspiring post, im trying to move up asap and at the same time not play too much to avoid burnout. I recently began analyzing every single big pot that i lost after every session and I've found it to be a huge improvement to my game. How many hands would u recommend to play daily ? Also im running 22/15/3.5 4tabling 25nl, is this appropriate for this level? Should i be looking at how i play big pots that i won as well as big pots that i lost?

Thanks again.

[/ QUOTE ]as for hands played per day it is all player dependant as well as day dependant for eveyone. some days u will b rested and have little else goin on thus will play more. while other days u might have been out late the night bfore and therefore tired or hung over or w/e and thus not play nearly s much that day. u should b able to tell when u have played too much and need a break or to finsh the day off.

as for ur stats i suggest making ur vpip and pfr much closer. prolly somewhere along the lines of 20/17/3.5 or so. raise a few more hands on the button and dont limp as many basically.

as for lookin at hands. i typically know when i was a bit confused during the hand. doesnt matter whether it was a 30bb pot or a 500bb pot. just whether i felt good during tha hand. i think it helps to have a lil note pad and write down which hand it was as u played that way u can go back and look them over later or even post them if u need some help.

kaz2107
06-09-2007, 03:39 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Good post Kaz.

You say you think 24/20-26/22 is optimal. I'll just comment that many Cardrunners pros are now saying that for uNL and SSNL, this is towards the absolute upper end of what is ideal. The concesus there is something closer to 19/16 or something like that.

I'm not saying they're right and you're wrong, I just thought I'd mention it. (Personally, I haven't formed a strong opinion on it one way or the other).

[/ QUOTE ]that is kinda of the point i was attempting to make (altho i didnt make it great obv /images/graemlins/grin.gif)

if i were playing some sort of competition where i had x amount of hours and was attempting to make the most amount of money in that allowed time and could only play say 50nl or 25nl or w/e then i would play a much more nittier style. luckily for us this extremely tight time frame is not an issue really thus idc about it all that much.

so my point is that while playin a more open game at 50nl might lose you a bit of money right now while at 50nl but will allow you to profit much more down the line as you will be much more prepared for 100nl+ and will make this transition much easier for us all. basically as i said, a small step back for 5 steps forward. looking at the loong term affects of doin this will be +EV much more then your stay at 50nl.

as for my range of most profitable stats. those numbers are in a closed vacuum and are imo the best stats for the avg game at any limit. obv there are many stipulations that should change these numbers based on the game you are in or the situations that arise. but if you threw me into a random game where i had no idea of the players and their abilities i would start off at around 24/21 or so and then adapt to this based on wut everyone else was doin.