Drugs and brain damage

[yukoncpa]

I love the affects of drugs. If a genie popped out of a bottle, one of my three wishes would be that cocaine were as healthy as vitamin C. I understand that some drugs are addictive and some will do damage to your lungs, liver, etc, but I’m chiefly concerned with brain damage. Other than alcohol, what other recreational drugs are proven undisputably to cause irreparable brain damage ( sans propaganda) if a user were to cycle these drugs like athletes do with anabolic steroids? By cycle, I mean take them for short bursts of time then lay off for a while. I’m mainly thinking about: marijuana, cocaine, LSD, mushrooms, ecstacy, and opium based drugs.

[hmkpoker]

There's some sketchiness with all the tests (that I've seen) linking permanent brain damage with use of any of these drugs. MDMA is probably the closest to having a legitimate argument, but I'm not too sure about that one either.

[yukoncpa]

Hi hmkpoker,
I had a discussion with a retired homicide investigator in the San Diego PD in a bar on this very topic. He told me that if I were going to do hard drugs, I'd be better off to stick with heroin and cocaine and stay completely clear of designers and meth. Any merit to what he said?

edit: we were discussing these drugs in the context of brain damage.

[Copernicus]

My fraternity would probably be a very effective double blind study on brain damage and hallucinogens. It was equally divided between the hippies and nerds and several of us ingested obscene amounts of LSD.

While I cant claim to know the mental condition of all 120 of us 35 years later, I am still in contact with enough who are in contact with enough and so on, that news of brain damage would most likely have reached one of us.

Then again...there is the radical left, remnants of the same era, who do exhibit an inability to reason at even a minimal level...so maybe there is a link between drugs and brain damage.

[yukoncpa]

[ QUOTE ]
Then again...there is the radical left, remnants of the same era, who do exhibit an inability to reason at even a minimal level...so maybe there is a link between drugs and brain damage.


[/ QUOTE ]

Neither the radical left nor the radical right can reason at a minimal level. Each of these extremeties need to take drugs and learn to love one another.

[Rduke55]

[ QUOTE ]
He told me that if I were going to do hard drugs, I'd be better off to stick with heroin and cocaine and stay completely clear of designers and meth. Any merit to what he said?

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely. Although many drugs can cause brain damage after years of chronic abuse (cocaine, alcohol) MDMA and methamphetamine are practically the only ones that have been shown to be directly neurotoxic in that you kill neurons with each use.

[CORed]

I did lots of durgs whne I was yuonger and I don't think the cuased any dain bramage at all.

[ChrisV]

"Brain damage" is a bit of a difficult thing to define. If you mean neurotoxicity, then methamphetamine has been proven neurotoxic to dopaminergic neurons. I wouldn't quite say that MDMA (Ecstasy) has been PROVEN to be neurotoxic to seratonergic neurons, but there's certainly a lot of evidence out there to suggest that it is. Proving things like that is actually pretty difficult given the illegality of the drug and the infeasibility of epidemiological studies given widespread polydrug usage etc etc, so I think it's wise not to require 100% ironclad proof before you start believing it.

You might also take "brain damage" to mean any kind of undesirable alteration to the workings of the brain. There is ample evidence that psychedelics such as LSD can cause long-term alterations to behaviour and to thinking. I personally feel I have been damaged by MDMA use. Briefly, I've used the drug on perhaps 15 occasions and towards the end of my usage it was causing me anxiety and panic reactions afterwards, as well as things like 3 or 4 day patches of impotence, which as you can imagine didn't help the anxiety. I've been left with an increased susceptibility to stress and anxiety - nothing dramatic, but I do feel like it has changed me as a person. Whether this is down to direct effect of the drugs, or secondary behaviour change due to the panic attacks etc is impossible to say.

[yukoncpa]

Thanks Chris for all the good info. Sounds pretty scary to me. I hope your symptoms aren't permanent.

[hmkpoker]

MDMA is very sketchy to me. I've never done it, mostly because it's notoriously impure and hard to find pure stuff. The studies I've read seem to involve a number of factors (like excessive dosing or polydrug usage), but I think it's still as close as it gets to a drug that causes deteroriation of brain cells.

I agree that LSD can permanently alter your perception. It's definately done that to me, but it's not like I've been "damaged." (I mean, if you went to a magical world of infinite pleasure and enlightenment, you'd be permanently altered too). I was glowing for months after the first couple times I did acid, and I think it's still with me. If drugs can permanently damage your mind, who's to say they can't permanently heal it too? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[hmkpoker]

Rduke:

Can you link me to any studies or suggest any good reading on the subject?

[JoshuaD]

Anyone know about weed and longterm effects on the brain?

[ChrisV]

Well, I think the increase in susceptibility to stress is probably permanent. But that's mild, and I haven't had an anxiety attack in ages and don't have any other symptoms. If you've never had serious anxiety, let me assure you you don't want to. It's a feeling like being trapped in a corner by a wild predatory animal, for the entire day. I never really understood the phrase "nameless dread" until I started getting it. Character building in a way. I have a lot more empathy for the mentally ill now.

[ChrisV]

MDMA was incredibly good. The best experience I had on it, was like being in orgasm for over an hour. I remember I was letting out involuntary gasps and moans due to the sheer pleasure, the way you do during sex.

I used to recommend it to people, but not anymore. It's a bit of a nasty drug. The ill effects creep up on you. If you can trust yourself to only take it a few times, it's definitely worth trying. Taking it in the long term will mess you up, period.

LSD i had a couple of really fun experiences with, but it's a bit of a lottery. One time I decided I couldn't fall in love with anyone ever, because all I saw were people's flaws. I remember being depressed to the point of crying the next day. Six months later I fell deeply in love with someone, so it was all rubbish. A close friend of mine claims LSD saved his life as he was close to suicidal at the point he tried it. Like I said, a lottery.

[ChrisV]

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone know about weed and longterm effects on the brain?

[/ QUOTE ]

Current wisdom is that it can accelerate the onset of schizophrenia in susceptible people, but not actually cause schizophrenia. Anecdotally, it seems to lead to lack of drive and foggy thinking over the long term. That's probably due to either accumulation of THC in the system (it's fat-soluble and hangs around in the body for ages) or to learned behaviour modification. It probably doesn't cause permanent brain damage in normal people in any sense of the word. But it will mess with your life if you do it too often.

[yukoncpa]

Hi Chris,
You seem to be an expert. How about cocaine? What sort of damage does this drug do to your brain long term? Also, What constitutes long term? You mentioned that you did ecstasy only 15 times and thought it did a little permanant damage. That sounds horrifying to me.
Also, once you have cellular damage to your brain, can it heal itself at all? Or is it like having your arm cut off.
thanks.

[ChrisV]

I've never taken cocaine and don't know much about it. There's a cocaine addict who plays in the local casino and he seems pretty messed up, but I assume he's taking it every day. I have no idea what it will do if you take it every now and then.

Neurotoxic damage to the brain is basically permanent. Neurons do not regrow. Studies of MDMA brain impairment show some improvement in the medium term (6-8 years) but not total recovery. Probably due to new axon growth, or some kind of compensatory effect like increase in serotonin receptor expression.

I think most likely the effect MDMA has had on me is secondary, due to the anxiety it induced. But bear in mind that in one of the largest sample size studies to date, which showed mental impairment in "heavy" MDMA users, "heavy" meant from memory anything over 20 times. (Although some users had used on hundreds of occasions).

My advice would be to be careful with drug use. Use moderately and not often. And most importantly, if you experience severe adverse effects during or after usage, stop using the drug. That was my mistake with MDMA, to assume that what I experienced was an isolated effect.

[Reef]

I've read about the following drugs to cause damage to the brain: Alcohol, Ecstasy, Methamphetamines

[madnak]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree that LSD can permanently alter your perception. It's definately done that to me, but it's not like I've been "damaged." (I mean, if you went to a magical world of infinite pleasure and enlightenment, you'd be permanently altered too). I was glowing for months after the first couple times I did acid, and I think it's still with me. If drugs can permanently damage your mind, who's to say they can't permanently heal it too? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

The high variance makes caution wise. I've had some minor "bad trips," and also panic attacks (not drug related). And it's hard for me to imagine anything being more traumatic than a full-blown bad trip could be. I would take physical torture in a heartbeat.

[ChrisV]

An ex girlfriend of mine had an extremely bad trip. Then in a fit of panic, she downed a whole stack of vitamin B, based on some rubbish she'd read about vitamin B aborting a trip. Vitamin B is toxic in those quantities and before long she was throwing up blood and scary stuff like that. She spent about the next month mostly in bed and was permanently affected by the experience.

[Rduke55]

[ QUOTE ]
Rduke:

Can you link me to any studies or suggest any good reading on the subject?

[/ QUOTE ]

I have journal articles that mostly aren't readily available, but I'll look for some later today.

[Rduke55]

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone know about weed and longterm effects on the brain?

[/ QUOTE ]

Weed's pretty safe. A lot of the memory loss stuff you read about has to do with the long 1/2 life of the drug in your system.

[Rduke55]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Chris,
You seem to be an expert. How about cocaine? What sort of damage does this drug do to your brain long term? Also, What constitutes long term? You mentioned that you did ecstasy only 15 times and thought it did a little permanant damage. That sounds horrifying to me.
Also, once you have cellular damage to your brain, can it heal itself at all? Or is it like having your arm cut off.
thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Brain-wise cocaine usually doesn't cause long lasting changes like, say, methamphetamine or MDMA does. For the overwhelming majority of users once they stop they'll eventually be fine. In really long-term, heavy users it can cause irreparable damage to the brain.
Cardiovasular-wise it can be a whole different story.

While you can't replace neurons the brain does have mechanisms in place to try and overcome damage. That's one of the ways stroke patients regain some function that was initially lost.
You don't want to lose brain cells though.

[Rduke55]

[ QUOTE ]
I've read about the following drugs to cause damage to the brain: Alcohol, Ecstasy, Methamphetamines

[/ QUOTE ]

Alcohol can cause brain damage in heavy, long-term users (think Mickey Rourke in Barfly) but the idea that ever time you get drunk you kill x amount of brain cells is a myth.

Methamphetamine and MDMA will kill brain cells.

[MelchyBeau]

LSD can be dangerous if you have a family history of schizofrenia(sp), or some other sort of psychological disorder. I had a friend who dropped like half of a normal dose of LSD, and has not been normal since. It turned out that his grandmother had schizofrenia, and they believe LSD triggered the same effect.

Melch

[hmkpoker]

Calling LSD a "lottery" may be ignoring some of the important factors to a bad trip, most of which are purely psychological. If you eliminate most of the sources of anxiety or depression, you'll very probably have a great trip. Whenever I did it, I always made sure I was in a familiar, comfortable setting, around people I trusted, feeling very, very good (I always did it when my outlook on life was really positive, usually best after getting some good grades back and getting all my homework and papers done), and I knew what I was getting.

If you think there's the slightest chance that you might have a bad trip, DON'T. That's your mind telling you you're too anxious.

In the odd eight or nine times that I've done it, I've had nothing but good experiences. Everyone I know who had bad trips didn't do one of the aforementioned things.

[Toe-Knee]

[ QUOTE ]
I did lots of durgs whne I was yuonger and I don't think the cuased any dain bramage at all.

[/ QUOTE ]
Damn beat me to it. /images/graemlins/grin.gif
Erowid is a pretty decent source for information IMHO. Here's there experience vaults, check out the Retrospective/Summary and health problems of some drugs, interesting stuff---> Erowid Experience Vault (http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp_list.shtml) . You guys ever hear much about DMT???? That's some seriously wicked stuff.

[hmkpoker]

Are there any other amphetamine derivatives proven to be neurotoxic in single doses?

How about tryptamines?

[Rduke55]

I usually see either methamphetamine or MDMA in the neurotoxicity literature. I think it's something about the methylation of those 2.
I'll look tomorrow and get back to you.