Folding to a short stack push

[betgo]

Say a short stack pushes in early position for 8xBB. I am in early position with 50xBB and most of the table has similar stacks to mine. What do I need to call? I think I might need JJ+, AK. It doesn't matter that I am ahead of short stack's range. I have to flat call and worry someone else will reraise or reraise and worry about getting stacked if someone has a big hand.

It seems like in this situation, the short stack push is particularly powerful. I think it is a donk play to call without a big hand. Now if you are in late position or a short stack yourself, you can call more loosely.

It seems like the caller has two problems. One is he cannot win the pot without a showdown, and the other is the players left to act.

This is lot of what makes pushbotting so powerful, particularly against good players.

[curtains]

You definitely dont need that strong a hand.

[Eagles]

This is very situation dependent but I would almost always call wider than JJ+ AK

[dcviperboy]

If he re-raises to isolate, then he is putting in almost half his stack. I think betgo is trying to establish which hands are worth the re-raise and which ones are call-able and foldable. The range he gave I think is re-popable to isolate, and I think all pairs might be worth a call and fold to a re-push. But I dont play these high of stakes.

[djk123]

I think you're over thinking. I'd probably call 88+,AJ+

Edit: Versus a tight player I think AJ is a fold.

[bigballz]

that range is wayyyy too tight. Your flat call is going to get plenty of respect and you don't really have to worry about other bigstacks shoving non-monster hands, so you might even be able to get away cheaper than if there wasn't a shorty shove.

[BarryLyndon]

99+; AQ+.

I think 88 is too loose a cut off. I think that AJ is kinduv ridiculous from an EP push. I'd rather have AQ so that I can get a race against JJ (which you see often enough to make AJ kinduv suck) and be WE against the oddily played KQ. I may re-adjust for AJ depending on the player, but I stay pretty firm at 99 for my cut off as far as pps are concerned.

Barry

[Bonified]

I agree with your reasoning. This is something I have said repeatedly on my blog in the last year or so. Most people call or raise too loose when a short stack is already all in.

Having said that, you might be taking it a little too far. AQ/99 is usually OK.

[nath]

[ QUOTE ]
99+; AQ+.

I think 88 is too loose a cut off. I think that AJ is kinduv ridiculous from an EP push. I'd rather have AQ so that I can get a race against JJ (which you see often enough to make AJ kinduv suck) and be WE against the oddily played KQ. I may re-adjust for AJ depending on the player, but I stay pretty firm at 99 for my cut off as far as pps are concerned.

Barry

[/ QUOTE ]
You'd rather have AQ than AJ? Get out of town! Really?

[betgo]

I said JJ+, AK to call or raise an early position push for 8xBB in early position with 50xBB stacks. If my stack was shorter, I could call with AQ+, 99+. If I am in later position I can call wider. From the BB, I could probably call 22+, KTs+, A8o+, A2s+, depending on the ante and reads.

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
that range is wayyyy too tight. Your flat call is going to get plenty of respect and you don't really have to worry about other bigstacks shoving non-monster hands, so you might even be able to get away cheaper than if there wasn't a shorty shove.

[/ QUOTE ]

Problem is if I flat call from early position with AQo or 99, there is about a 15% chance one of the remaining players has QQ+, AK, in which case, they usually reraise, and it isn't good if they flat call. Plus a significant percentage of the time someone pushes to isolate lighter.

When I get pushed off the hand, I lose 8xBB. My expected gain HU against the short stack is not that great, because I am not a huge favorite over the short stack's range. So calling with AQo or 99 in this situation is marginal.

[Foucault]

You got to realize Betgo that your call here puts all of the other stacks behind you in an even rougher situation. It seems you're concerned about getting semi-bluffed off your hand, ie having to fold TT when someone shoves AJ. But really people are not going to be shoving AJ when you call the all in from EP, and you can pretty safely fold TT with 50 BB effective stacks (and pretty safely call the first time, since the hands that can shove over the top just won't be dealt often enough).

I don't think I re-raise anything in this spot, as the price is already pretty steep for anyone to get involved. I think I flat call 88+ and AJ+, and I call a 50 BB re-shove with QQ+ and AK unless reads dictate otherwise.

[betgo]

Regardless, you still need a good hand to call in early position. As I pointed out, the shove over hand does happen with reasonable frequency.

My point was not the exact range, but that people tend to call too loosely in general. You generally have a much better situation if you can open raise and steal than at best case isolate.

[MychCumstien]

[ QUOTE ]
Regardless, you still need a good hand to call in early position. As I pointed out, the shove over hand does happen with reasonable frequency.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with you. I think early position is the key here. I'd probably lower my range down to TT though, i.e. AA-TT, AK.

Late position, I'm opening it up a lot, but early pos, I'm in there with AA-TT, AK, and I'm reraising to isolate .

This way later positions need AA-QQ, AK to come in, and you won't get re-repopped very often. I think if you only smooth call here, you invite worse hands to raise you off your hand, i.e. AQ, AJ, and some worse PP's.

Some may disagree with me there, but I think those hands suddenly get huge value with a stiff raise against you; i.e. if you only call, they see weakness and can safely raise, as they then expect you to fold (I see this often late in tournies); and then they've just sweetened the pot with your dead money, giving them great odds, even if they're behind in the hand.

[Foucault]

Mych, if you are only getting involed wtih TT+ and AK, why would you want to discourage people from shoving worse hands at you?

[BarryLyndon]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
99+; AQ+.

I think 88 is too loose a cut off. I think that AJ is kinduv ridiculous from an EP push. I'd rather have AQ so that I can get a race against JJ (which you see often enough to make AJ kinduv suck) and be WE against the oddily played KQ. I may re-adjust for AJ depending on the player, but I stay pretty firm at 99 for my cut off as far as pps are concerned.

Barry

[/ QUOTE ]
You'd rather have AQ than AJ? Get out of town! Really?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I'm being quite serious.

[gravycakes]

[ QUOTE ]
Mych, if you are only getting involed wtih TT+ and AK, why would you want to discourage people from shoving worse hands at you?

[/ QUOTE ]


I agree with this statement with hands like KK or AA.

I don`t like re-raising to isolate here with anything but QQ or KK. If you re-raise and put almost half your stack on the line with TT in EP and someone goes over the top, what do you do? You`re almost surely beat.

Flat calling shows strength and if you have AA and someone goes over the top, perfect...with KK I think you have to go as well. Flat calling also gives you a backdoor if you have TT or JJ and someone goes over the top.

This EXACT thing happened to me yesterday on PS and I flat called with TT and someone pushed over the top after me. I was thinking about re-raising to isolate and thank god I didn`t. Just my 2 cents.