The defining hand of Event #9 - $1,500 Omaha 8 or Better

[WarDekar]

Okay I'm not really sure if any of you play O8 much at all, but this hand was definitely the defining hand of my O8 tournament today and I wanted to know if I played well or really donked it.

Blinds 150/300
Stacks and reads:
Seat 10 (Young guy, internet cash game guy, has seemed solid the entire tournament but likes raising PF a lot): ~6k
Seat 5 SB (Older guy, haven't seen tons of showdowns he's doubled recently but seems relatively solid): ~4k
Seat 6 BB (Me, I've scooped a couple pots with nut hands, knocked old lady out in BvB when she was short and I flopped nut straight to her top 2, but overall I should be seen as solid): ~7k

Dealt to Hero in BB: 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif which is just pathetic, but whatever I'm in the BB and we have 4 limpers so I get to see a flop.

(T1500) Flop: 5/images/graemlins/club.gif 7/images/graemlins/club.gif J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

SB bets, I call, 1 fold, MP raises, 1 fold, SB 3-bets, I call, MP calls.

(T4200) Turn: K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

SB checks, I bet, MP calls, SB calls.

(T6000) River: 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif

SB checks, I check, MP bets. SB calls, I call.




I thought this through a lot during this hand but obviously had to make a rather hasty decision. I've thought about it a lot after the fact too because I really was unsure of how I played it. I'll post my thought process after a few replies. I realize most people don't play O8, but I thought this might be an interest hand to post for tourney O8 play.

(Pot T7800)

If I win this pot I'm very likely top 10 in chips I think for this point in time, average at the end of today I want to say was like... just under 6k?

[ilushan]

Well. I'm playing omaha8 a lot online, never played live in a big event obv.

I'm almost sure that correct play is to fold on the flop to the 3-bet. MP can easily have JJ and we're dead - besides we can win only half of the pot. There are 2 cards to make someone's low.

I have to admit that I myself will call 3-bet and check-call both turn and river, though we're definitely dead on the river (just pot-odds), but it's a leak in my game that I'm battling with.

GL in Vegas!

[WarDekar]

Obviously that was why I really questioned what I did here because there is the possibility of me drawing dead. Do note I'm not necessarily drawing to half the pot here, though.

This is obviously a huge leak in people's O8 games (getting setup with non-nut draws/hands and losing tons of chips, especially from some stupid hand out of the BB like this with no redraws)

I kind of want someone to berate me for it because under a lot of situations I think this is really bad, but at the same time I want to be shown that my thinking was wrong.

[WarDekar]

I meant Average at the time was a little less than 6k

[registrar]

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I'm sure that correct play is to fold on the flop to the 3-bet.

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[WarDekar]

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I'm sure that correct play is to fold on the flop to the 3-bet.

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Okay I'm just going to post my thought process now because I know that's what everyone is going to say, and I was thinking the same thing at the time.

I tanked for a pretty long time here actually, definitely longer than at any point up to this, and I felt like I could be making a HUGE mistake by calling the 3-bet (which it seems is probably going to be the consensus, I guess I'm a donk)

Flop:

SB leads out, with players left to act I call, folds to MP who raises, SB 3-bets it. This is really why I hate O8 because I have what seems like a decent hand because I have scoop possibilities which at this point of the tournament would be huge.

This is definitely the toughest decision I had to make all day and I tanked for kind of a while before deciding to call. My reasoning is that I'm not sure JJ is much in MPs range here because any of his playable hands with JJ here he's raising PF based on prior reads and showdowns I've seen. SB could have JJ, especially as he 3-bets it, but again JJ isn't a huge part of his range I don't think here as he's not very likely to play something with JJ OOP like this? He's also a definitely a weaker player than MP, and he has donked some around so I can definitely see him leading and 3-betting draws here.

So after tanking I decided that their most likely holdings are flush draws with low draws, and 2-pair is a very remote possibility I think again given ranges, so if I fill there's a very good chance I'm scooping and definitely will take the high. When MP flat calls the 3-bet I'm 100% positive he doesn't have JJ and definitely think he's on a combo low/flush draw given the action.

Turn:
Okay this was a pretty good card for me here as it doesn't give any straights, no club flush, no low, and the way the hand has been played KK is pretty much non-existent in their ranges, so I should still be ahead here, maybe one of them picked up a diamond draw or straight draw.

Also I think this card helped me a ton to define ranges, if SB bets out I think I can fold safely, but by him checking I think that pretty much eliminates JJ from his range. Again the check looks like a low draw/flush draw to me as there's no way after 3-betting flop that he'd check through JJ.

So I bet, both call. Again I think this really solidifies their ranges as not including JJ/KK and on draws of some kind.

River:
This seems like a decent river to me, but it's still not something I want to bet because I'm taking half at best and in the chance I'm screwed I don't want to be raised and lose another 600 which is rather significant right now, I stand to gain at most 300 (half of one big-bet from another player) but I can lose 600 more if beat.

MP has fired a lot of rivers and taken down pots off other people, and plus my hand still has showdown value as the only things beating me are 36 and 68 (I don't count KK and JJ because as I said they're pretty much eliminated from their ranges by now) so SB calls, I call.

[registrar]

With so many people in the pot, calling the first bet with four to act behind, middle set, no draw, and essentially no low possibilities is by no means a straightforwardly correct decision. Once you are faced with a three-bet and are not closing the action, I really think you need to bail out and against random players in a fat multiway pot, I don't think hand-reading is going to much help unless this is really your game.

Let's think about the cards that you want to see. The case 7 would be nice. That's the best card for you but it's one card and it doesn't guarantee you a scoop. Everything else is various types of bad news - none of it is good news: either because your hand is so strong because you can't lay it down; or because you're handing on for winning half the pot some of the time, the whole pot rarely and none of the pot some of the time; or because you're not getting value when you do hit. Pretty much every card in the deck sucks. You're right that the K is about as good as it gets, but there's still one card to come and neither opponent is ever going to fold once the flop action is done.

[Brighton Belle]

I don't play this high ($150 MTT max) and I don't play live, but I do play a lot of O8, so I hope this is useful...

Why not raise the flop?

Surely winning the pot is more important than winning future bets in Limit in general and Limit MTT's in particular. You want to get rid of rough low draws who might have gutshot/runner-runner straight draws and random non-A/K high flush draws. They should be folding to 2 bets even if they would have called 1.

Then, if it's 3-bet by MP and 4-bet by the SB the fold might be easier too.

And I think JJ is very much in SB's range. There's plenty of hands like JJ32 and JJTT that I'd complete preflop after several limpers and bet out on the flop hoping someone raises to protect the pot.

As played, not sure I could fold to the 3-bet though. Like you I'd certainly tank!

[registrar]

Good point. Facing the SB lead into a fat multiway pot raising>calling. I still think folding is best. There's just too much going on on this board with this many players left to act to start wedding yourself to a limped pot with the second nuts, little scope for improvement that doesn't see opponents overtake, and little chance of a scoop.

[gobboboy]

Agreed, folding is probably best. Raising will just make you play against the guy who when he 3bets is pretty huge for the money that's in the center right now, and that's no good. Calling puts you in this situation whereas folding when you have less than 20% maybe for a scoop seems good.

[WarDekar]

Well... Here are the results:

MP had A336 with the nut-flush and 2nd nut low draw on flop. SB had A3Kx with the 2nd nut flush draw on the flop and 2nd nut low draw. I typed it in an equity calculator, and on the flop I had 47.3% equity vs. 37.6% for MP and 15.1% for SB. When the turn Kd came it then shifted our equity to 61%/29%/10% so again I’m hugely the favorite here. River comes and obviously it shifts to 0%/75%/25% all of the sudden. Sick turn-around, but that's O8 for ya, and why I really hate live O8 tourneys.

[curtains]

lol at four cards and chopping pots

[WarDekar]

LOL at dealers not knowing how to deal 4 cards and chop pots (for the life of me I don't know how many times I yelled at a dealer to stop shoving chips in the middle when a pot was HU)

[MaverickUSC]

Raise SB initial flop bet. Then the hand plays way differently and easier.

Devo

[ericicecream]

I think the first question on the flop is whether or not you can raise. I think you can but it's marginal. I think you can also think about folding here, with middle set, a low draw/flush draw/maybe str8 draw against you, scooping this pot is not very likely. Getting half is likely a crying call on river.

Reverse implied odds are sooo bad here. I probably fold to the initial bet (someties might raise) and as played with the call I fold to the 3 bet.

[ericicecream]

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Well... Here are the results:

MP had A336 with the nut-flush and 2nd nut low draw on flop. SB had A3Kx with the 2nd nut flush draw on the flop and 2nd nut low draw. I typed it in an equity calculator, and on the flop I had 47.3% equity vs. 37.6% for MP and 15.1% for SB. When the turn Kd came it then shifted our equity to 61%/29%/10% so again I’m hugely the favorite here. River comes and obviously it shifts to 0%/75%/25% all of the sudden. Sick turn-around, but that's O8 for ya, and why I really hate live O8 tourneys.

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Your equity was good because you were against the best possible scenario, as they shared the same draws. Against the total of their ranges here you're much worse off.

[WarDekar]

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Well... Here are the results:

MP had A336 with the nut-flush and 2nd nut low draw on flop. SB had A3Kx with the 2nd nut flush draw on the flop and 2nd nut low draw. I typed it in an equity calculator, and on the flop I had 47.3% equity vs. 37.6% for MP and 15.1% for SB. When the turn Kd came it then shifted our equity to 61%/29%/10% so again I’m hugely the favorite here. River comes and obviously it shifts to 0%/75%/25% all of the sudden. Sick turn-around, but that's O8 for ya, and why I really hate live O8 tourneys.

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Your equity was good because you were against the best possible scenario, as they shared the same draws. Against the total of their ranges here you're much worse off.

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I realize that, and I was definitely in a pretty much best-case scenario. BUT, those WERE the hands I thought by far the most likely out of their ranges (or some variation of low-draw/flush-draws) and because of that I thought I had more than enough equity to continue on the flop since they probably had a lot of duplicate cards, not only making their flush less likely but also making pairing the board more likely (the chances of them having pairs on the board was very low).