KK 3bet PF. FTP 40k

[shaundeeb]

Full Tilt Poker Game #2578334743: $40,000 Guarantee (18858443), Table 12 - 200/400 Ante 50 - No Limit Hold'em - 22:40:17 ET - 2007/06/03
Seat 1: Asiandude7 (9,853)
Seat 2: whoanelly1 (12,905)
Seat 3: tedsfishfry (15,722)
Seat 4: basherman (7,720)
Seat 5: twistednow (7,961)
Seat 6: Le_rische (24,497)
Seat 7: A_Junglen (10,370)
Seat 8: dlperrio (8,980)
Seat 9: UCSF (11,625)
Asiandude7 antes 50
whoanelly1 antes 50
tedsfishfry antes 50
basherman antes 50
twistednow antes 50
Le_rische antes 50
A_Junglen antes 50
dlperrio antes 50
UCSF antes 50
tedsfishfry posts the small blind of 200
basherman posts the big blind of 400
The button is in seat #2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to tedsfishfry [Kh Kc]
twistednow folds
Le_rische raises to 1,850
A_Junglen folds
dlperrio folds
UCSF folds
Asiandude7 folds
whoanelly1 folds
tedsfishfry raises to 5,600
basherman folds
Le_rische calls 3,750
*** FLOP *** [Qc Ts Jh]
tedsfishfry....?

Table has been nutty potting PF was this guys standard raise I had been really active just lost a double vs a shorty with a good hand PF so he may see me as tilty. We both had well above avg stacks.

[cakewalk]

bet/3bet ?

[djk123]

You have about a psb left right? I'd prob just stick it in. Given your description I can see a lot of worse hands callin.

[Eagles]

Just bet call

[johnnyrocket]

yea bet/call, you've got the same amount of chips behind as there are in the pot, we need to stick it in here to try and build our stack, no way in folding at all

only other option is checking and letting him be so he can bluff at it and try building our stack. Has he been real aggro when checked to?

[jcmoussa]

id check and see what he does. hes got to be scared of that flop with your RR oop preflop.

[TheNewf]

I'd just jam, you're *often* behind though.

[Hello Nasty]

Push

[LSgambler]

I'd push, although i don't like it much. Board is pretty scary, but no way I would fold this with your stack so yea I push. The good thing is that vs every hand that beats you (besides AK) you will have at least 10 outs.

[unconscious]

Tough, tough call. I would likely push here, but if I had
time to think I might check/call the flop. But @ FTP thinking is not an option.

Le_rische calls 3,750

Scary b/c this, to me, looks like offsuit AK, but maybe suited AQ/AJ. Just sucks that (AQs/AJs) are basically the only hands he's likely to have PF that you can beat now. I'd say with QQ and JJ even 1010 being in the mix, a push here is probably the wrong play. But common who am I kidding, I'm pushing that flop like 99.9% of the time, cause I suck.

[nath]

[ QUOTE ]
Le_rische calls 3,750

Scary b/c this, to me, looks like offsuit AK

[/ QUOTE ]
What?

[unconscious]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Le_rische calls 3,750

Scary b/c this, to me, looks like offsuit AK

[/ QUOTE ]
What?

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL Nath, this is like your standard answer nowadays. Why is that confusing?

[NHFunkii]

what in the world makes his flatcall preflop look like AKo?

anyway it might depend on the player but I think you have too much equity in this pot to ever fold so I would just bet/call. I don't think people are very likely to bluff this flop so I wouldn't bother checking.

[unconscious]

Flat call after you've been re-raised T3750 PF? What range do you call or re-raise here? What does this feel like to you guys? Im laying AQo or worse.

[cking]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Le_rische calls 3,750

Scary b/c this, to me, looks like offsuit AK

[/ QUOTE ]
What?

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL Nath, this is like your standard answer nowadays. Why is that confusing?

[/ QUOTE ]

obviously the way he called when he put in his chips screamed AK, but not quite the confidence that the suited kind would do this with. (/sarcasm)

Anyway, the pot is pretty large and the only correct move ont his board with you overpair/oesd is to push

[unconscious]

LOL cking. You are so smart. (/sarcasm)

[nath]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Le_rische calls 3,750

Scary b/c this, to me, looks like offsuit AK

[/ QUOTE ]
What?

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL Nath, this is like your standard answer nowadays. Why is that confusing?

[/ QUOTE ]
because
[ QUOTE ]
what in the world makes his flatcall preflop look like AKo?

[/ QUOTE ]

[ASPoker8]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Le_rische calls 3,750

Scary b/c this, to me, looks like offsuit AK

[/ QUOTE ]
What?

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL Nath, this is like your standard answer nowadays. Why is that confusing?

[/ QUOTE ]

Think in terms of ranges please.

Also, AK 4bet shoves here with these stack sizes a ton

[NoahSD]

Meh.. I just shove pre. Also shove flop. You're often behind, but you ain't folding and he's not putting any more money in if you check than if you bet.

[ASPoker8]

[ QUOTE ]
Meh.. I just shove pre.

[/ QUOTE ]

With almost 40 BBs?

[unconscious]

Guys I am learning, should I just keep my "greenhorn" posts to myself? I know me posting ramblings and getting [censored] on is likely helping me somehow....I really don't want to come off as annoying.

[0evg0]

[ QUOTE ]
Guys I am learning, should I just keep my "greenhorn" posts to myself? I know me posting ramblings and getting [censored] on is likely helping me somehow....I really don't want to come off as annoying.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is also a regular MTT forum where there are many people in the same boat you are.

[nath]

[ QUOTE ]
Guys I am learning, should I just keep my "greenhorn" posts to myself? I know me posting ramblings and getting [censored] on is likely helping me somehow....I really don't want to come off as annoying.

[/ QUOTE ]
The whole point of this forum is to provide detailed strategy and discussion, and higher-level analysis of situations. Yes, it's probably better to lurk than to post anything here until you start to understand things and why. Ask questions, or try posting strategy in the regular MTT forum. But don't post statements without meaning or logic or analysis behind them.

I mean, do you understand why a statement like "His flat call looks like AKo to me" is ridiculous?

[unconscious]

Nath honestly no, but does it have the same texture as a flat call if he was the OR?

[nath]

[ QUOTE ]
Nath honestly no, but does it have the same texture as a flat call if he was the OR?

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't understand what you're asking. But think of it this way: Of all the hands he could have that he would raise with preflop and then decide to play after a reraise, why, specifically, would he call with ace-king offsuit and none of the other ones?

[unconscious]

I meant he could have AK, AQs, AJs, QQ, JJ, 1010. I am most scared of his hand being AK after the call? Im not sure I could re-raise PF w/ AKo but maybe AKs. I know I suck @ writing/putting my thoughts on paper.

FWIW, I agree that his hand looks like AKo. Red AKo.

[unconscious]

Oh stfu guys thats enough!!!!lol

[JohnFR]

unconcious I will try to explain what they are saying. Never put somebody on 1 hand, give them a range. Yes AK is part of his 4.5x preflop raise/flat call line, but there are also other hands that fit that action. But his range is quite a bit larger, he essentilaly hit the pot sized button preflop, which means his range is 66+, AT+,KQ and after the reraise that was a bit on the smaller side he is probably calling with 66-JJ,AJs+,AQo+ ish, maybe some other hands like KQs. So don't try to narrow his range to 1 single hand.

12k+ in pot, and 10kish behind, I think this is probably a shove, if you check and he checks behind you don't know if he has no hand, or a monster that he is calling your shove with anyway, and then you find a way to get it in on the turn.

[mastr]

wait wait wait. Isn't checking here vastly superior? What's a bad card that can rip off? I can't think of any, maaaybe Q, and we obv call if he bets and never lay the hand down. But what hand worse then us is calling and if we're beat why not see if we can minimize the chips that go in? I think everyone so far in this thread has been off for this hand. Someone give me a logical reason fo the gain of pushing now vs checking.
Enumerated options.

1. We push he folds a better hand (we can all agree this is never happening right?)
2. We push he calls with a hand we're beating (almost never, maaaybe 99, maaaaybe AQ)
3. We push he folds a worse hand(this worse hand is drawing super slim unless he's 99 where he has 6 outs, otherwise, practically none)
4. We push he calls with a better hand(now all chips are in against a better hand)

CHECKING
1. he shoves, we call (gives him opportunity to bluff, if he has us beat he wasn't ever folding to our open shove)
2. he checks behind and turn comes.
2a. Brick, we check again for same reasons as flop.
2b. other cards should play themselves knowing if you want to check or shove, but there seems to be no downside to letting the card come off)

[JohnFR]

K,Q,J,T are all terrible cards....

[mastr]

but how does that change if we shove the flop? and a lot of those cards give us the win against a lot of his range. Please actually take the time to think and read my whole post before responding, k thanks

[JohnFR]

mastr you realize you are like the only person saying check? I would say shove = bet/call >>>>>> check

[mastr]

your argument is that i'm wrong because of no reason except i'm alone in the view. I'll wait til someone competent reads and responds to this.

[JohnFR]

WOW, nhfunkii, noahsd, newf, cking, eagles aren't competent?

[mastr]

I just meant you for formign an opinion solely on waht others say and not backing it up with logic at all. I just wanted to wait for those guys to read my initial post and think about it and respond, let's stop cluttering this thread because i'm very curious what other people will think of my reasoning.

[JohnFR]

I thought shove instantly when I saw pot > 12k and stack = 10k, I could be convinced of bet/call probably that is why I thought shove = bet/call, because I hadn't put much thought into that exact scenario, but I instantly thought shove when I saw the flat call preflop....

[Newt_Buggs]

Just shove the flop, not that it makes a big difference either way. If we are behind the chips go in no matter what, so the only purpose of checking is to try to squeeze value out of weaker hands. If he can't call a flop shove with a weaker hand though you probably aren't getting more chips out of him either way.

[unconscious]

mastr, I agree with you. That being said, it's prolly NOT a good thing that I agree.

[stevepa]

master, no one's ever shoving anything we beat that they wouldn't call if you shove. You basically just give small pairs a free shot at hitting their two outs. Checking doesn't look weak here, it looks like AK (at least to bad players).

Steve

[the alex]

[ QUOTE ]
master, no one's ever shoving anything we beat that they wouldn't call if you shove. You basically just give small pairs a free shot at hitting their two outs. Checking doesn't look weak here, it looks like AK (at least to bad players).

Steve

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't like checking, not because I'd fear getting outdrawn if I'm ahead, but because of all the action killers that'll peel off on the turn added to that.

[mastr]

yes we're giving hands 2 outs against us, but is there no chance fo a worse hand ever betting at any street or maybe even a better hand not putting us in? (like AA perhaps [I know this is crazy unlikely, but i feel as unlikely as a 2 outer getting there])

[Eagles]

[ QUOTE ]
yes we're giving hands 2 outs against us, but is there no chance fo a worse hand ever betting at any street or maybe even a better hand not putting us in? (like AA perhaps [I know this is crazy unlikely, but i feel as unlikely as a 2 outer getting there])

[/ QUOTE ]
If he ever has AQ or KQ he will call a shove but will probably check behind

[Crispy]

How you didnt push this preflop I am not sure why, he stuck in 1/3 of his stack, he is probably not folding the rest. The only reason I am not fond of checking here, is because its a really strong check. Many hands that we raise and just flat call here are 99+ AQ+ and those hands hit this flop pretty hard, if the opponent is competent he will most likely just peel. However open pushing here can look like KQ, AQ, maybe a naked K, naked 9, a bluff? Adds more mystery and perhaps it will put our opponent to a decision that confuses him.

[NoahSD]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Meh.. I just shove pre.

[/ QUOTE ]

With almost 40 BBs?

[/ QUOTE ]

With big antes after someone opened to 4.5 BBs.. yes. shaun's raise puts in more than 1/3 of his stack, so people aren't really bluff shoving over that.

[shaundeeb]

Good discussion now for results, after a few seconds I figured checking was best too I wasn't 100% sure why at the time but after the fact I was happy my first instinct was to check because doing the analyzing I came to the same conclusion. He ended up shoving I called and resucked on his QQ.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
master, no one's ever shoving anything we beat that they wouldn't call if you shove. You basically just give small pairs a free shot at hitting their two outs. Checking doesn't look weak here, it looks like AK (at least to bad players).

Steve

[/ QUOTE ]

my first instinct is to check because we're behind 80% of the time, but I basically agree with this. and hey, once a year or so, you might even get AA to fold.