Stars $200 Billion hand [Archive] - Two Plus Two Newer Archives

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woodguy

06-03-2007, 06:41 PM

Thought this hand had a couple of interesting questions, and of course I want to check my line with others better than me.

Villian is not good. That's my only note, "not good" and I didn't make it this session.

PokerStars No-Limit Holder's Tourney, Big Blind is t400 (9 handed) Hand History converter (http://www.learnhowtoplaypokerfree.com/convert/pokerforums.cgi) Courtesy of PokerZion.com (http://PokerZion.com)

saw flop|saw showdown

CO (t26250)
Button (t9175)
SB (t14300)
BB (t7063)
UTG (t25475)
Hero (t30525)
MP1 (t19350)
MP2 (t8825)
MP3 (t10212)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls t400, Hero raises to t1600, 7 folds, UTG calls t1200.

Flop: (t3800) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets t2400, UTG calls t2400.

Turn: (t8600) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
UTG bets t4000

Hero?

Regards,
Woodguy

Bakes

06-03-2007, 06:42 PM

shove i would if he's bad

THEOSU

06-03-2007, 06:44 PM

goes all in very very quickly?

woodguy

06-03-2007, 06:48 PM

Really guys?

Don't we lose most of the hands we have drawing to 2 outs?

I realize that the frush is there too, but jamming here is like twice the pot.

I am asking sincerely, is jamming a good value play?

THEOSU

06-03-2007, 06:49 PM

woodguy,

fine, make it 12k or something. jamming's the same damn thing.

cakewalk

06-03-2007, 06:53 PM

for some reason i'd be happy taking down 12.6k

woodguy

06-03-2007, 06:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]

woodguy,

fine, make it 12k or something. jamming's the same damn thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, so you see raising here is better than calling.

That was 1/2 the reason I posted the hand, was unsure.

I thought that I lose most of the hand I have drawing uberthin, so I just called.

River

PokerStars No-Limit Holder's Tourney, Big Blind is t400 (9 handed) Hand History converter (http://www.learnhowtoplaypokerfree.com/convert/pokerforums.cgi) Courtesy of PokerZion.com (http://PokerZion.com)

saw flop|saw showdown

CO (t26250)
Button (t9175)
SB (t14300)
BB (t7063)
UTG (t25475)
Hero (t30525)
MP1 (t19350)
MP2 (t8825)
MP3 (t10212)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls t400, Hero raises to t1600, 7 folds, UTG calls t1200.

Flop: (t3800) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets t2400, UTG calls t2400.

Turn: (t8600) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
UTG bets t4000, Hero calls t4000.

River: (t16600) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
UTG checks

Hero?

cakewalk

06-03-2007, 07:08 PM

bet some amount ? i doubt we're behind here, he has no reason to expect a c/r to be profitable

THEOSU

06-03-2007, 07:10 PM

with the heart getting there we check behind.

Foucault

06-03-2007, 08:01 PM

In this tournament, there are plenty of not good players who aren't going to fold an OMG OVERPAIR just because you jam turn. And they aren't going to pay off a lot of rivers anyway. And of course 55 and 66 are drawing to more than two outs, as is 45 and crap like that. Just raise the turn. [censored].

woodguy

06-03-2007, 08:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]

In this tournament, there are plenty of not good players who aren't going to fold an OMG OVERPAIR just because you jam turn. And they aren't going to pay off a lot of rivers anyway. And of course 55 and 66 are drawing to more than two outs, as is 45 and crap like that. Just raise the turn. [censored].

[/ QUOTE ]

Good points.

Main reason I posted was that I was uncertain about turn.

Thanks!

Eagles

06-03-2007, 08:23 PM

Raise the turn for the a million reasons listed already. As played I bet like 7k

woodguy

06-03-2007, 08:38 PM

If I hadn't of raised PF I would have misplayed this one on every street.

I had a bet typed out and chickened out. I don't know why, bad players don't c/r the river. Maybe he check/calls with a medium flush, but I have to think I'm good here 80% of the time.......

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t400 (9 handed) Hand History converter (http://www.learnhowtoplaypokerfree.com/convert/pokerforums.cgi) Courtesy of PokerZion.com (http://PokerZion.com)

saw flop|saw showdown

CO (t26250)
Button (t9175)
SB (t14300)
BB (t7063)
UTG (t25475)
Hero (t30525)
MP1 (t19350)
MP2 (t8825)
MP3 (t10212)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls t400, Hero raises to t1600, 7 folds, UTG calls t1200.

Flop: (t3800) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets t2400, UTG calls t2400.

Turn: (t8600) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
UTG bets t4000, Hero calls t4000.

River: (t16600) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: t16600

Results:

UTG has 8h 8s (one pair, eights).
Hero has Js Jc (one pair, jacks).
Outcome: Hero wins t16600.

potamophobia

06-05-2007, 04:49 PM

I like the check on the river. With your just call on the turn your opponent could easily put you on a flush draw. If you bet this river a worse hand will very rarely call.

curtains

06-05-2007, 05:03 PM

I would raise the turn for sure. Pot is gigantic don't get fancy especially with all the bad river cards that can come. Whether or not they actually hurt your hand is irrelvant, the problem is that people won't be paying you off anymore. Also this is the [censored] stars $200, aka this guy probably got in for 20 FPPs and has never played higher than 5c 10c in his life.

Jurollo

06-05-2007, 07:27 PM

raise turn... 12k seems ok. As played I check behind river I think.

Ansky

06-05-2007, 07:51 PM

Checking river is horrible, like really, really horrible.

No one has a flush here.

Ansky

06-05-2007, 08:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I like the check on the river. With your just call on the turn your opponent could easily put you on a flush draw. If you bet this river a worse hand will very rarely call.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're just so wrong.

And it amazes me how many people still beleive this after playing online tournaments for so long.

Ansky

06-05-2007, 08:21 PM

Ok just to elaborate.

You people have to realize from a game theory perspective (as well as a purely practical perspective) why checking a hand as strong as JJ back here is [censored] horrible (it's a massive leak, not a small one).

People say all the time that in tournaments metagame doesn't matter that much, well that's really not true, especially if you are posting in a thread like this, where you basically announce that you way over polarize your ranges on the river. If you check behind a hand as strong as JJ here, what are you betting? Do you guys who say check, check behind AA here as well? If so that's not any worse, but just as terrible because they are the same thing.

So if you are betting this river, does that mean in a vacuum you either have a set or a flush? Realistically if you choose to bet with a set, it is because you expect him to call with 2 pair hands and 1 pair hands. However, he clearly does not have 2 pair, but quite often has something like A4 or a middle pocket pair, both of which it makes no difference if you have a set or an overpair, they clearly beat everything he can have.

Furthermore, if you don't bet your overpairs, and only your sets/ flushes here, it becomes INCREDIBLY easy to play against you in these spots, because your range is so clearly split between monster and bluff, and you are extremely exploitable (ie, one can safely make a call w/ a 1 pair hand because he knows u either have a bluff or a set+, and he doesn't have to worry about you valuebetting thin).

Additionally, wtf how can you guys possibly think villain has a flush here? He checks flop, donks small on the turn then CHECKS WHEN THE FLUSH HITS. The guy is clearly a moron, he isn't going for some advanced retarded river c/r w/ a flush.

Whichever way you look at it, meta/theory of poker/ game theory/ pure hand reading, checking here is abysmally bad poker.

Foucault

06-05-2007, 08:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Ok just to elaborate.

You people have to realize from a game theory perspective (as well as a purely practical perspective) why checking a hand as strong as JJ back here is [censored] horrible (it's a massive leak, not a small one).

People say all the time that in tournaments metagame doesn't matter that much, well that's really not true, especially if you are posting in a thread like this, where you basically announce that you way over polarize your ranges on the river. If you check behind a hand as strong as JJ here, what are you betting? Do you guys who say check, check behind AA here as well? If so that's not any worse, but just as terrible because they are the same thing.

So if you are betting this river, does that mean in a vacuum you either have a set or a flush? Realistically if you choose to bet with a set, it is because you expect him to call with 2 pair hands and 1 pair hands. However, he clearly does not have 2 pair, but quite often has something like A4 or a middle pocket pair, both of which it makes no difference if you have a set or an overpair, they clearly beat everything he can have.

Furthermore, if you don't bet your overpairs, and only your sets/ flushes here, it becomes INCREDIBLY easy to play against you in these spots, because your range is so clearly split between monster and bluff, and you are extremely exploitable (ie, one can safely make a call w/ a 1 pair hand because he knows u either have a bluff or a set+, and he doesn't have to worry about you valuebetting thin).

Additionally, wtf how can you guys possibly think villain has a flush here? He checks flop, donks small on the turn then CHECKS WHEN THE FLUSH HITS. The guy is clearly a moron, he isn't going for some advanced retarded river c/r w/ a flush.

Whichever way you look at it, meta/theory of poker/ game theory/ pure hand reading, checking here is abysmally bad poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

Heart ansky.

FGators

06-05-2007, 10:42 PM

Horrible players can't get off 55/66, pair and a straight draw,etc. here so we won't "lose a customer". Jam it in there. Sure it would be nicer if stacks were a bit more friendly for getting it in when he donks the turn but the push isn't that much of an overload.

06-06-2007, 12:46 AM

Darcy-

FWIW, I also smooth-call the turn, but I think Foucault convinced me that a raise is probably better.

On a side note, I agree 100% with Ansky's tirade. Checking behind on the turn here is pretty awful. Strassa ripped me apart for this on my WSOP post a month or so back. Bet the river for value. When he CRs the 1% of the time he actually does, then you can probably fold or call if you have some sorta wacky read on him. But we'd be losing tons of value if we check behind river here.