Simple Question About the Resurrection [Archive]

Subfallen

06-03-2007, 06:06 PM

I have no idea on what the apostles believed. But if they did believe that Jesus was God incarnate, then He managed to select the 11 most profoundly uncurious human beings that have ever lived. Give me one day with Omniscience Incarnate---ONE DAY---and I will change the face of science and human knowledge forever. The disciples spent what, 3 years with Him, and learned...uhh...DUHHHHH...nothing.

yukoncpa

06-03-2007, 07:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I have no idea on what the apostles believed. But if they did believe that Jesus was God incarnate, then He managed to select the 11 most profoundly uncurious human beings that have ever lived. Give me one day with Omniscience Incarnate---ONE DAY---and I will change the face of science and human knowledge forever. The disciples spent what, 3 years with Him, and learned...uhh...DUHHHHH...nothing.

Post Extras

[/ QUOTE ]

Great point -
Not only did he pick the most uncurious people to hang with, but every person he came into contact with should have quickly figured out he was a God. It’s not everyday you run into someone who is perfect. Historians, mathematician, doctors, scientists, etc. would have been eager to seek out this person and gain information from him. If I were one of his disciples, the bible would contain a bit more useful info than how to treat your slaves and a rehash of Confucius’s sayings. Jesus could have instructed his buddies on matters such as: how germs cause disease, pasteurization, the printing press, etc.

PLOlover

06-03-2007, 07:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Asked Simply:

Do you think the 11 Apostles identified in the Gospels truly believed that Jesus Christ rose from the dead?

There are logical deductions to make from each answer.

[/ QUOTE ]

didn't they stick their fingers in the holes in his hands cause they didn't believe him?

I think the biblical answer is that at first they didn't then after they "examined" him they did.

PLOlover

06-03-2007, 07:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
how germs cause disease, pasteurization

[/ QUOTE ]

I think those two are in there.

kerowo

06-03-2007, 08:18 PM

Meh. Tough to be curious when the only thing you know is the same stuff your parents knew. It's not like there were a ton of journals loaded with unanswered questions of the day. "Yes, super know it all guy, please tell me everything I don't know so I can ask you questions about it."

T50_Omaha8

06-03-2007, 08:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah. Easy to be curious when the only thing you know is the same stuff your parents knew. It's not like there were a ton of journals loaded with answered questions of the day.

[/ QUOTE ]FYP

NotReady

06-03-2007, 08:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Do you think the 11 Apostles identified in the Gospels truly believed that Jesus Christ rose from the dead?

[/ QUOTE ]

This was a toughie but after years of tedious and detailed research I finally stumbled across Acts 2:

14But Peter, taking his stand with the eleven, raised his voice and declared to them: "Men of Judea and all you who live in Jerusalem, let this be known to you and give heed to my words.
...
24"But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power.

Lestat

06-03-2007, 08:41 PM

NotReady,

How is it you know so much about the bible? Obviously you have read it, but do you read it every day? I think even you would agree that it's not an easy book to understand. I guess I'm asking; did you say to yourself at some point, "I'm gonna study the bible"? Your knowledge is really very impressive.

godBoy

06-03-2007, 08:56 PM

I think he was being sarcastic with all that 'years of research' stuff..

Acts is the book that describes the early church, as in what came directly after the crucifixion. It seems like a shoe-in that the start of that book is where this question about the apostles could be answered.

But yes, NR does have a very good understanding of the bible.

bunny

06-03-2007, 08:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Do you think the 11 Apostles identified in the Gospels truly believed that Jesus Christ rose from the dead?

[/ QUOTE ]
Eventually

Lestat

06-03-2007, 09:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think he was being sarcastic with all that 'years of research' stuff..

Acts is the book that describes the early church, as in what came directly after the crucifixion. It seems like a shoe-in that the start of that book is where this question about the apostles could be answered.

But yes, NR does have a very good understanding of the bible.

[/ QUOTE ]

I realize he was being sarcastic, but that just served to remind me how easy he seems to recall just about anything from anywhere, in the bible at the drop of a hat.

kerowo

06-03-2007, 09:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yeah. Easy to be curious when the only thing you know is the same stuff your parents knew. It's not like there were a ton of journals loaded with answered questions of the day.

[/ QUOTE ]FYP

[/ QUOTE ]

My first question would have to be what the hell you were trying to get at.

T50_Omaha8

06-03-2007, 10:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yeah. Easy to be curious when the only thing you know is the same stuff your parents knew. It's not like there were a ton of journals loaded with answered questions of the day.

[/ QUOTE ]FYP

[/ QUOTE ]

My first question would have to be what the hell you were trying to get at.

[/ QUOTE ]The fact that your reasoning for why people had less reason to be curious 2000 years ago is absurd.

If you were being sarcastic, then nh.

kerowo

06-03-2007, 10:59 PM

Why is it absurd? Where do you think curiosity in the way things work comes from? The information you were taught in school was beyond the comprehension of probably 95% of the population 1000 years ago, let alone 2000 if it was even known at all. There were no burning research questions that a bunch of day laborers would have known or cared about. The level of technology wasn't such that there was a ton of mystery in how it works. What kinds of questions do you think a "curious" person would have asked our know it all friend?

funkyworms

06-04-2007, 12:04 AM

Since the question is based upon the premise that the apostles actually existed, I would say the answer is NULL.

NotReady

06-04-2007, 01:14 AM

[ QUOTE ]

How is it you know so much about the bible?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not being humble when I say my knowledge of the Bible is very deficient. I do know a fair amount about the subjects it covers and the research is very easy these days with computer searching. Bible Gateway makes me look very good. If you pay attention to what I quote most of it is from just a few books, and those I am more familiar with, and read more often than the rest. There's tons in there I don't know. Much of the Bible is very easy to understand, some is very tedious (but there for a reason) and some is beyond our current understanding. Probably the most difficult thing is it isn't arranged sytematically. I believe the best way for a Christian to understand it at first is from a good book on systematic theology. For an atheist the only things you really need are "All are sinners" and "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved". That's when Bible study begins.

Zeno

06-04-2007, 01:33 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Asked Simply:

Do you think the 11 Apostles identified in the Gospels truly believed that Jesus Christ rose from the dead?

There are logical deductions to make from each answer.

[/ QUOTE ]

First let's get some facts straight. Take out your Bible and turn to Acts Chapter 1 starting at verse 15 and read to the end of the Chapter. Peter, the other apostles, and the rest of the believers chose another apostle to replace Judas. They picked two candidates, Barsabbas and Matthias based on length of service (from the beginning). After a prayer, they drew lots to choose between the two men and Matthias was chosen and added as the official Twelfth Apostle. One assumes that each man had a 50% probability of getting that last coveted Apostleship. Perhaps the lot was a bent coin.

People should read their Bibles more. I am disappointed this obvious error was not pointed out earlier.

Anyway, it is twelve Apostles not eleven. We have a practice of exactitude on this forum and I want all to start adhering to it with religious zeal.

-Zeno

Zeno

06-04-2007, 01:44 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Do you think the 11 Apostles identified in the Gospels truly believed that Jesus Christ rose from the dead?

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
14 But Peter, taking his stand with the eleven,....

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Peter (a single person) plus eleven = 12.

Do the math NotReady.

-Zeno

PLOlover

06-04-2007, 01:57 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Re: Simple Question About the Resurrection [Re: NotReady]
#10646858 - 06/04/07 01:44 AM
Edit post Edit Reply to this post Reply Reply to this post Quote Quick Reply Quick Reply

Quote:
Do you think the 11 Apostles identified in the Gospels truly believed that Jesus Christ rose from the dead?

Quote:
14 But Peter, taking his stand with the eleven,....

Peter (a single person) plus eleven = 12.

Do the math NotReady.

-Zeno

[/ QUOTE ]

wasn't Judas dead at that point?

Lestat

06-04-2007, 01:57 AM

<font color="blue">For an atheist the only things you really need are "All are sinners" and "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved". That's when Bible study begins.
</font>

I'm more interested in who wrote the scriptures. I'd like to learn more about who these men really were and exactly what were their motivations. Of course, it's no surprise that you and I are going look at it from two different directions. With you assuming everything as fact, and my viewing it with ardent skeptism. Nevertheless, there's no denying it is a fascinating book and I'd like to learn and understand more about it.

Zeno

06-04-2007, 02:03 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Re: Simple Question About the Resurrection [Re: NotReady]
#10646858 - 06/04/07 01:44 AM
Edit post Edit Reply to this post Reply Reply to this post Quote Quick Reply Quick Reply

Quote:
Do you think the 11 Apostles identified in the Gospels truly believed that Jesus Christ rose from the dead?

Quote:
14 But Peter, taking his stand with the eleven,....

Peter (a single person) plus eleven = 12.

Do the math NotReady.

-Zeno

[/ QUOTE ]

wasn't Judas dead at that point?

[/ QUOTE ]

Precisely so. That is why they picked another Apostle. See Acts Chapter 1 v. 18-22 for Peter's explanation.

-Zeno

NotReady

06-04-2007, 02:07 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Do the math NotReady.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, forgot about the Nit Police.

PLOlover

06-04-2007, 02:30 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:

Quote:

Re: Simple Question About the Resurrection [Re: NotReady]
#10646858 - 06/04/07 01:44 AM
Edit post Edit Reply to this post Reply Reply to this post Quote Quick Reply Quick Reply

Quote:
Do you think the 11 Apostles identified in the Gospels truly believed that Jesus Christ rose from the dead?

Quote:
14 But Peter, taking his stand with the eleven,....

Peter (a single person) plus eleven = 12.

Do the math NotReady.

-Zeno

wasn't Judas dead at that point?

Precisely so. That is why they picked another Apostle. See Acts Chapter 1 v. 18-22 for Peter's explanation.

-Zeno

[/ QUOTE ]

well yeah but wasn't there a period in between?

Zeno

06-04-2007, 03:03 AM

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well yeah but wasn't there a period in between?

[/ QUOTE ]

There was of course. The amount of time between Judas' death and the election of Matthias was about 43 days. According to Acts, Jesus appeared to the disciples for 40 days after his death then He rose to Heaven from the Mount of Olives. A few days later was when they had a meeting and elected Matthias. So 43 days is a good estimate. From that you must minus the amount of time from Jesus' arrest to the death of Judas. According to Matthew Judas hanged himself after Jesus was condemned but before he was actually crucified and one assumes before he rose again. If that is correct then minus 1 day or so and we have 42 days that only eleven Apostles graced the earth.

But see Matthew Chapter 27 v 3-9 and compare that with Acts Chapter 1 v 17-19 for something very interesting. The inconsistency of the death story of Judas is blatant and glaring and can’t be reconciled.

-Zeno

NotReady

06-04-2007, 03:05 AM

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there's no denying it is a fascinating book and I'd like to learn and understand more about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are many good books about the Bible and textual criticism. I've recommended Evidence That Demands a Verdict before because it has a good intro to these subjects with a very good bibliography.

F.F. Bruce (http://www.worldinvisible.com/library/ffbruce/ntdocrli/ntdocont.htm) is generally acknowledged as an expert by both Christian and non-Christian Bible scholars. As a matter of fact, I've been meaning to read this and since you bring it up I think I will begin it.

NotReady

06-04-2007, 03:15 AM

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The inconsistency of the death story of Judas is blatant and glaring and can’t be reconciled.

[/ QUOTE ]

You guys really ought to check Tektonics (http://www.tektonics.org/gk/judasdeath.html)
before you allege a Bible error.

Zeno

06-04-2007, 04:08 AM

Back fitting done well. Great read.

Are you implying the Bible has No errors? None? Not even in the Geneologies of Jesus related in Matthew and Luke? Again, what a quaint book the Bible is.

What others think some more support: enjoy (http://www.answering-islam.de/Main/Intro/islamic_jesus.html)

-Zeno

bunny

06-04-2007, 04:18 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Back fitting done well. Great read.

Are you implying the Bible has No errors? None? Not even in the Geneologies of Jesus related in Matthew and Luke?

[/ QUOTE ]
He's claimed that directly many times. Plus done a fair job of rebutting any specific purported contradiction. (Not the "Here's a list of 8000 contradictions, explain them all" kind)

Zeno

06-04-2007, 04:36 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Back fitting done well. Great read.

Are you implying the Bible has No errors? None? Not even in the Geneologies of Jesus related in Matthew and Luke?

[/ QUOTE ]
He's claimed that directly many times. Plus done a fair job of rebutting any specific purported contradiction. (Not the "Here's a list of 8000 contradictions, explain them all" kind)

[/ QUOTE ]

Cool. I'll finally find out where the Flamming Sword which turns in all directions guarding the tree of life is. See Genesis chapter 3, v. 22-24.

-Zeno

PLOlover

06-04-2007, 05:24 AM

[ QUOTE ]
But see Matthew Chapter 27 v 3-9 and compare that with Acts Chapter 1 v 17-19 for something very interesting. The inconsistency of the death story of Judas is blatant and glaring and can’t be reconciled.

[/ QUOTE ]

tell us 2+2 degenerates. the people demand it.

DonkBluffer

06-04-2007, 04:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Great point -
Not only did he pick the most uncurious people to hang with, but every person he came into contact with should have quickly figured out he was a God. It’s not everyday you run into someone who is perfect. Historians, mathematician, doctors, scientists, etc. would have been eager to seek out this person and gain information from him. If I were one of his disciples, the bible would contain a bit more useful info than how to treat your slaves and a rehash of Confucius’s sayings. Jesus could have instructed his buddies on matters such as: how germs cause disease, pasteurization, the printing press, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]
Are you saying that if today there was a man who claimed to be the son of god and who had a small following, you would go and see him right away? Nope. Fwiw, there have been quite a few 'enlightened beings' in the past century, who were considered perfect by many people. Not to mention that not very many people could have heard about jesus back then.

Ben K

06-04-2007, 05:09 PM

Interesting, I want to know who the other gods are that Jehovah refers to in verse 22.

NotReady

06-04-2007, 05:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Are you implying the Bible has No errors? None? Not even in the Geneologies of Jesus related in Matthew and Luke?

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe there are no errors in the original manuscripts and that they can be derived from extant copies. See Tektonics and others for the genealogy question.

If you want to start listing Bible errors and contradictions I have a rule. You have to research the issue on a Christian web site, post their solution and your reasons for not accepting the solution. I do this to save time because all I'm going to do if you post one is refer you to the web site until you have enough info to discuss.

Also, only one at a time, please.

NotReady

06-04-2007, 06:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Cool. I'll finally find out where the Flamming Sword which turns in all directions guarding the tree of life is. See Genesis chapter 3, v. 22-24.

[/ QUOTE ]

38 mi SSW of Bagdad. But it's invisible.

revots33

06-04-2007, 10:56 PM

I could be wrong but didn't at least 1 or 2 of the apostles get executed after Jesus' death because they wouldn't renounce him or the resurrection? If so I think they likely truly believed.

Actually I think they probably truly believed either way. Look at all the crazy things cult members have believed, even in very recent history. Self-delusion isn't difficult if the payoff is big enough.

Hopey

06-04-2007, 11:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I could be wrong but didn't at least 1 or 2 of the apostles get executed after Jesus' death because they wouldn't renounce him or the resurrection? If so I think they likely truly believed.

Actually I think they probably truly believed either way. Look at all the crazy things cult members have believed, even in very recent history. Self-delusion isn't difficult if the payoff is big enough.

[/ QUOTE ]

If being willing to die for your faith is all it takes for a religion to be "proven", then we should have all been lining up to become Muslims after 9/11.

It's quite amazing what an unwavering belief in eternal paradise can cause some people to do.

Zeno

06-04-2007, 11:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Cool. I'll finally find out where the Flamming Sword which turns in all directions guarding the tree of life is. See Genesis chapter 3, v. 22-24.

[/ QUOTE ]

38 mi SSW of Bagdad. But it's invisible.

[/ QUOTE ]

When about 7 or 8 years old I remember reading about the flaming sword and thinking that was something worth going to see. I mean, to a youngster with a simply believing mind and child-like honesty there ain't too many things in life more cool than a flaming sword. The "Cherubims" (KJV rendering and spelling) were not as interesting but still cool in a mysterious way.

Now I learn to my chagrin that the flaming sword is invisible. I have to say NotReady that I am disappointed, but not that surprised. I assume, using my rudimentary logic and substandard intellectual capabilities, that the Tree of Life is also invisible (as are the “Cherubims”). So we have an invisible triad (excluding the "tree of knowledge of good and evil"). An invisible Tree of Life guarded by an amazing sword “which turned every way” and some invisible “Cherubims” to keep it company. In some way this information is actually pleasing. It has an intriguing beauty and symmetrical simplicity about it that is quite appealing. As an explanation I take it at face value and find no fault in you for believing it or placing these interesting facts before the public in an open forum.

As to other errors and nit-pickings at the Bible, I see no real reason to harass you about them. I have books to read and miles to go before I sleep. I think we both have better uses for our time. Thanks for the interesting answer.

-Zeno

NotReady

06-04-2007, 11:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]

When about 7 or 8 years old I remember reading about the flaming sword and thinking that was something worth going to see.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jesus had much to say about children and childlike faith. He said to the adults that unless they had faith like children they could not see the kingdom of God. And He told Nicodemus "You must be born again".

With the faith of a child you would someday see that sword and much greater than that.

Zeno

06-05-2007, 02:48 AM

[ QUOTE ]

With the faith of a child you would someday see that sword and much greater than that.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm going to Hell NotReady. Please resign yourself to this quaint fact.

But to get this thread back on track - Yes, the Apostles truly believed in the Resurrection. Whether that belief translates into a historical fact is another issue completely.

-Zeno: Zen Master

SNOWBALL

06-05-2007, 02:55 AM

[ QUOTE ]

NotReady,

How is it you know so much about the bible? Obviously you have read it, but do you read it every day? I think even you would agree that it's not an easy book to understand. I guess I'm asking; did you say to yourself at some point, "I'm gonna study the bible"? Your knowledge is really very impressive.

[/ QUOTE ]

Five years ago, you'd say the same thing about me and marxist literature. Belief is a helluva drug.

flipdeadshot22

06-05-2007, 03:38 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

NotReady,

How is it you know so much about the bible? Obviously you have read it, but do you read it every day? I think even you would agree that it's not an easy book to understand. I guess I'm asking; did you say to yourself at some point, "I'm gonna study the bible"? Your knowledge is really very impressive.

[/ QUOTE ]

Five years ago, you'd say the same thing about me and marxist literature. Belief is a helluva drug.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT