Should I be raising this? $540 Venetian

[WarDekar]

Level 1, 25/50 and 10k starting chips. Table is filled with older people except me and 2 other young guys, I'm in seat 2, young internet pro in seat 1, and other dude in seat 9.

Folds to seat 1 in CO who makes it 200. I call with 22, SB folds, BB calls.

Flop comes T42. CO bets 500. I call BB folds.

Turn blank. CO bets 1200 I call.

River blank CO bets 2500 I call.

I didn’t raise because no hands in his range that I’m beating are going to call - the board is 10 high, so the only thing he could even conceivably call with is an over-pair, but the way I played the hand I really didn't think he ever would, and I was going to get busted by an over-set.

I knew since he was young pro he’s capable of 3 barrelling and I had perfect position to play it that passive. As I saw it, the only benefit to raising river is so that I didn't have to show the hand, but at the same time it can also play to my benefit by showing.

Was my play standard? Bad/awful? I really have very little experience playing this deep, FWIW, and table reads were pretty non-existent at this point.

There's something to be said for raising on earlier streets maybe, but I just don't see the point of raising the river - guy in Seat 1 after I showed him my hand said something about wtf why weren't you raising? Well.... obviously because I thought I could get a lot more by calling him down, but I didn't tell him that of course.

I mean... I guess if I'm raising earlier streets it's possible I might've been able to get more from an over-pair, but at the same time is he really going to stack off 200BB deep with an overpair on this board? Highly unlikely...

[shaundeeb]

lead that turn he raises it a lot then flat call and lead river line is strong but gets lots of calls.

[Shine]

you need to raise

yes people can get it in with less than bottom set here

no your play was not standard to cold call three streets with bottom set on a dry board

[betgo]

I don't know if flat calling the flop and turn are bad, but you got to raise the river. Of course he will call with less than a set. In fact, he is kind of pot committed to call a push.

I hope you made him show first.

[WarDekar]

Of course I made him show first, and I don't think he's pot committed at all to call a push.

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
Of course I made him show first, and I don't think he's pot committed at all to call a push.

[/ QUOTE ]
There is 10K in the pot with 5400 left. He is getting pretty good odds to call a push or a smaller bet. I don't know what all those bricks were, so I don't know how likely a straight is, but it seems like there is more chance he calls a push with less than a set than he calls with a set or straight.

[Foucault]

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Of course I made him show first, and I don't think he's pot committed at all to call a push.

[/ QUOTE ]
There is 10K in the pot with 5400 left. He is getting pretty good odds to call a push or a smaller bet. I don't know what all those bricks were, so I don't know how likely a straight is, but it seems like there is more chance he calls a push with less than a set than he calls with a set or straight.

[/ QUOTE ]

Betgo, you have AA flop T42r you bet, turn 5 you bet, river J you bet, Villain shoves if it's a 10K pot and 5K for you to call you make the call with AA?

[LSgambler]

You have to at least raise the river.

[mastr]

foucault's right. If the guy knows what he's doing raising the river is bad. Doesn't mean we shouldn't have tried to get more money in elsewhere. I kind of like gobbo's line a lot

[betgo]

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Of course I made him show first, and I don't think he's pot committed at all to call a push.

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There is 10K in the pot with 5400 left. He is getting pretty good odds to call a push or a smaller bet. I don't know what all those bricks were, so I don't know how likely a straight is, but it seems like there is more chance he calls a push with less than a set than he calls with a set or straight.

[/ QUOTE ]

Betgo, you have AA flop T42r you bet, turn 5 you bet, river J you bet, Villain shoves if it's a 10K pot and 5K for you to call you make the call with AA?

[/ QUOTE ]

I might think my AA was good 1/4 of the time. I don't know if a random player in a $540 folds an overpair here.

[NHFunkii]

[ QUOTE ]
lead that turn he raises it a lot then flat call and lead river line is strong but gets lots of calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

he's in position. I'm not sure what the turn/river is, but I don't think is bad at all. when are you raising, and what does it accomplish? yeah, check-calling 3 streets sucks, but when he's in position and the guy is betting pretty strong (and is a theoretically good internet pro, who can probably fold an overpair to a turn or river raise), I think calling down is standard.

[Foucault]

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lead that turn he raises it a lot then flat call and lead river line is strong but gets lots of calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

he's in position. I'm not sure what the turn/river is, but I don't think is bad at all. when are you raising, and what does it accomplish? yeah, check-calling 3 streets sucks, but when he's in position and the guy is betting pretty strong (and is a theoretically good internet pro, who can probably fold an overpair to a turn or river raise), I think calling down is standard.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, just to be clear, the flop is the only street I could see raising unless any of those "brick" cards made Villain a plausible two pair (in which case they wouldn't be bricks). I know it feels weird, but I like OP's line. AA is good against a river shove like 2% of the time.

[nath]

I understand your reasons for not raising anywhere, but this is one of those spots where overthinking things probably cost you a lot of value.

Let me make it simple: you have a set in a donkament. Find a way to play for stacks.

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
I understand your reasons for not raising anywhere, but this is one of those spots where overthinking things probably cost you a lot of value.

Let me make it simple: you have a set in a donkament. Find a way to play for stacks.

[/ QUOTE ]
Exactly, villain probably has an overpair and you got only half his stack.

[Eagles]

[ QUOTE ]
I understand your reasons for not raising anywhere, but this is one of those spots where overthinking things probably cost you a lot of value.

Let me make it simple: you have a set in a donkament. Find a way to play for stacks.

[/ QUOTE ]
QFT Raise flop or turn

[WarDekar]

But even if I raise flop or turn, could I possibly have gotten more from an overpair? I got like 4.5k from him by letting him bet into me the entire way, right?

If I raise flop or turn and keep firing, this guy was going to be able to fold an overpair. Straights weren't very likely for either of us, and I think raising and continuing to fire was going to screeaaaammmm set. There were literally no cards in his range to make 2 pair, so he pretty much either had a.) over-cards or b.) a pair, which could be a higher set or an over-pair.

So if I raise, he's definitely folding over-cards and I get [censored] from him. If I raise he can also get away from an over-pair. If he has an over-set, I'm getting stacked.

The way I played it, I saved myself from an over-set, and I really felt I got the max value, or close to, from an over-pair, and ABSOLUTELY got max-value from over-cards.

[willie]

i'm 50/50 between raising the turn to 3000 and jamming the river.

[NHFunkii]

[ QUOTE ]
I understand your reasons for not raising anywhere, but this is one of those spots where overthinking things probably cost you a lot of value.

Let me make it simple: you have a set in a donkament. Find a way to play for stacks.

[/ QUOTE ]

a donkament is one hting, but he calls him a "young internet pro"
now there's a pretty wide range of skill among "young internet pros" but I don't think it's an awful assumption that he folds an overpair to a raise on the turn or river.

[Exitonly]

i agree once we call the flop that just calling on the turn and river sounds reasonable, but shouldn't THAT be a reason to raise the flop? i think we have to give him a chance to go broke. make it 1500 on the flop and bet 3k on the turn, shove river.

[yellowsub]

dude jam river, he'll never expect it!

[MaLiik]

[ QUOTE ]
dude jam river, he'll never expect it!

[/ QUOTE ]
What do want out of a 22 when you go to the flop, over pairs or a set? When you hit the set you are on doubble/bust mode. Either you should double up with this hand or bust to a higher set/straight/flush. But not getting all you'r chips in is really not the way to play a hand like this!

[WarDekar]

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dude jam river, he'll never expect it!

[/ QUOTE ]
What do want out of a 22 when you go to the flop, over pairs or a set? When you hit the set you are on doubble/bust mode. Either you should double up with this hand or bust to a higher set/straight/flush. But not getting all you'r chips in is really not the way to play a hand like this!

[/ QUOTE ]

DUde that's an awful way to think.

FWIW he had AQo on T-high board so i'm sure I got the most possible this particular time

[RichC.]

I hate to say this, but you can minraise the river. it practically forces him to call it.

[WarDekar]

[ QUOTE ]
I hate to say this, but you can minraise the river. it practically forces him to call it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hate this for all the reasons I hated raising to begin with

[curtains]

Should have of course raised at some point. omg I actually played in this tourney today, but I think you are talking about the day before.

[cking]

I think your being results oriented here. Your saying that u dont want to bust vs an over-set. The chances are small, you cant really worry about these kind of things without a very very solid read. Also you talk about max value, the only thing you get maxvalue from is the exact hand that he has, 2 overs. So all your doing now is telling yourself that it was played perfectly fine b/c he had the only hand that would shutdown vs you if you fired at some point.

If he has anything like an overpair, TPTK, or 2 pair, your going to get more value. Turn you should of repoped to 3k, who knows maybe he even shoves on you or atleast calls that, and if he has a better hand you get more value. You need to be aiming to get maxvalue against his range, and not just against the one hand he has.

Also i like the curtains method of, toss out 3k in 1k chips and when the dealer says raise, be like "omg i thought those were the 500 chips!"

[WarDekar]

There's no way he has 2-pair on this board, and I hardly think I'm getting any more out of an over-pair or TPTK here, I just don't see a good player stacking off with those hands on this board in the first 20 minutes of a deep-stack event.

We started with 200BB here, how the F is he going to call off his entire tournament on such a weak hand? I wouldn't so much say that I'm WORRIED about getting out-setted is that I still just don't think I'm getting any more chips out of a hand that's weaker than mine by raising.

I do realize I may be results oriented, and that's why I posted it to begin with.

[MaLiik]

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dude jam river, he'll never expect it!

[/ QUOTE ]
What do want out of a 22 when you go to the flop, over pairs or a set? When you hit the set you are on doubble/bust mode. Either you should double up with this hand or bust to a higher set/straight/flush. But not getting all you'r chips in is really not the way to play a hand like this!

[/ QUOTE ]

DUde that's an awful way to think.

FWIW he had AQo on T-high board so i'm sure I got the most possible this particular time

[/ QUOTE ]Enlighten me!

why do you play 22 at all when you don't get all your chips in the middle when you hit the set. Are you looking for the four of a kind on the flop to play the twos? As I understand there is no straight or flush possible! Why would you only call him when you have the set, to show the table what a crappy player you are? What would differ if you would have raised on the river and he would have folded, you would still have won the pot. You would just have the table guessing what you had. I bet a few players said "wow, now that's a hand!" when you showed the set.

BTW, stop playing at this level.

[WarDekar]

I already said that one benefit of raising river would be to not showdown the hand, but that it wasn't particularly relevant are there are also definitely ADVANTAGES TO SHOWING DOWN THE HAND.

BTW, stop being an ass and post legitimate criticisms and thought processes about the hand in question if you want to be here.

[Highn]

[ QUOTE ]
Enlighten me!

why do you play 22 at all when you don't get all your chips in the middle when you hit the set. Are you looking for the four of a kind on the flop to play the twos? As I understand there is no straight or flush possible! Why would you only call him when you have the set, to show the table what a crappy player you are? What would differ if you would have raised on the river and he would have folded, you would still have won the pot. You would just have the table guessing what you had. I bet a few players said "wow, now that's a hand!" when you showed the set.

BTW, stop playing at this level.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because he can get villain to 3 barrel him? Don't use such a condescending tone in your posts please, totally uncalled for.

[MaLiik]

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BTW, stop being an ass and post legitimate criticisms and thought processes about the hand in question if you want to be here.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'll try;

1. When you hit a set with a low pair you want to get as much chips in as possible. Survival mode is only applicable at the bubble and even then I'd say you should raise the river. This is the type of flop, turn and river you want with a low pair!

2. If the tuirn/river is blank a lot of the hands that should scare you are gone. You are afraid of a back door flush draw. If an ace would come all the better for you.

3. If you raise and he has a higher set so be it, you won't have this happening to you that often and a 2 pair will (should?) call you.

4. Getting a big stack early in a tourney is often better since you will have much more room to make moves. You wont get flops like this often enough to make fancy plays when you do!

5. It's never good for anyone to see a hand that you play. You want to give as little information on the hands you play as possible. You want the players at your table regarding you as an aggressive player, that will keep them from playing aggressiv against you later in the tourney, if you play passive they will start to stab at you!

6. The fact that he didn't have a hand that would have called you is not niotressting, the times when he has a hand that will call you is!

[WarDekar]

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BTW, stop being an ass and post legitimate criticisms and thought processes about the hand in question if you want to be here.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'll try;

1. When you hit a set with a low pair you want to get as much chips in as possible. Survival mode is only applicable at the bubble and even then I'd say you should raise the river. This is the type of flop, turn and river you want with a low pair!
Ummmm if you think I was playing "survival mode" in this hand you completely have no idea what's going on, and no this is not the flop turn and river I want with a low pair as it gives him no possible good hands really other than an over-set
2. If the tuirn/river is blank a lot of the hands that should scare you are gone. You are afraid of a back door flush draw. If an ace would come all the better for you.
Ummm I'm not afraid of a back-door flush draw at all, and obviously I'm happy to see an Ace hence my response to #1
3. If you raise and he has a higher set so be it, you won't have this happening to you that often and a 2 pair will (should?) call you.
This is still not any reason to raise, and the board was T-high something ridiculous like T2475 or some [censored], I can't even remember now but 2-pair was definitely not in his range so no he's not calling with 2-pair because he never has 2-pair here
4. Getting a big stack early in a tourney is often better since you will have much more room to make moves. You wont get flops like this often enough to make fancy plays when you do!
Ummm yeah that's why I got a big stack by playing the hand the way I did which allowed me to run over my table for the next 3 hours
5. It's never good for anyone to see a hand that you play. You want to give as little information on the hands you play as possible. You want the players at your table regarding you as an aggressive player, that will keep them from playing aggressiv against you later in the tourney, if you play passive they will start to stab at you!
This is just so wrong I don't even know where to start
6. The fact that he didn't have a hand that would have called you is not niotressting, the times when he has a hand that will call you is!
Exactly my point, he never has a hand that will call me here that I have beat

[/ QUOTE ]

BTW, stop posting at this level

[MaLiik]

1. what was your game then?

2. what scares you then? a higher set?

3. you said it was two balnk cards, I made the assumption they were blank. And why would you call if you are so afraid of a higher set?

4. ok, good for you. How did you do in the tourney?

5. ok

6. I'd say there are hands that would call you. He could have had Tx, if your are afraid of a higher set you should have folded on the flop.

[NHFunkii]

if he had Tx he would have folded to a raise (and he also would not have 3barrelled). WTF 2 pair does he have on this board?

maliik your posts in this thread are awful.

[ryanghall]

I think raising the flop is right. He's CB'ing into 2 players, which obviously doesn't mean he has a hand but it's a little more likely than normal and he sure isn't getting away from an overpair for one raise. It will make his decision tougher later, too.

[curtains]

lol at this thread

[adanthar]

look, it's okay to (sometimes) call that flop, and very occasionally (and I mean very) okay to call that turn too, but ffs, raise the freaking river when you get there like this.

they aren't all supertough phil ivey clone hand readers and online donks go broke with AA a bazillion times a donkament, just freaking shove it in at some point.

[snewland22]

Yeah, I think you have to get your chips in here. You're giving the other guy too much credit. Its very possible (likely?) he calls you with an overpair.
Also, although you dismissed this, I think its conceivable he has 10/7s for 2 pair, which he calls you with.
Unlike some others, I don't mind the flop and turn call, but I think you need to move some chips on the river.