UB 109, Final Table, Multiway/2nd pair

[mikeJ]

800/1600 + whatever antes were, probably 150, 6 handed

Reads: "CL is playing the most laggy of all of us... not necessarily getting outta line but his range probably isnt exactly tight [preflop]"

Hero just won the last pot, raising preflop, the HJ in this hand called for 1/3rd his stack, Hero put him AI on 662 flop and won w/o showdown. Otherwise hero had been playing tight.

Hero has 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif UTG

Stacks:
Hero: 38k
HJ: 7k
CO: 12k
Button: 89k
SB: 30k
BB: 27k

Hero raises to 4250, Button calls, BB calls.

Flop: 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif T/images/graemlins/heart.gif (Pot ~= 14k)
BB checks, Hero?

[nath]

Check and shove if button bets and BB folds

[mlagoo]

i think nath's line is fine, but i would like definitely fold this pf. i'm not saying that's necessarily correct, but i think it is. too many good restealing stacks left, and a couple stacks you're going to be pot-committed against, etc... and utg raises (especially shorthanded/lategame) aren't getting the respect they once were. i really think it's a fold.

[Bakes]

[ QUOTE ]
i think nath's line is fine, but i would like definitely fold this pf. i'm not saying that's necessarily correct, but i think it is. too many good restealing stacks left, and a couple stacks you're going to be pot-committed against, etc... and utg raises (especially shorthanded/lategame) aren't getting the respect they once were. i really think it's a fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

agreed

[curtains]

btw just a word of warning, when you raise in spots like this with hands like 98s, 87s, you are going to flop 2nd pair a very reasonable % of the time. It can be extremely difficult to play well in spots like this, and of course especially so when the pot is multiway.

It helps to be a bit deeper IMO because then the pot isn't so important to you, and you can kind of play passively on a 2nd pair type of flop without having gigantic regrets. I mean right now you have 34k and the pot is 14k, a sizable % of your stack. So you really want the pot but you also don't want to risk 34k to win it usually. Meanwhile you don't want to risk 10k and then fold for 24k more when it's so reasonable for your opponent to have a draw. But ok that's not really the main reason not to raise here, it's just random musing. I've seen so many posts lately where someone raises with a hand like this and then flops some hand that's extremely difficult to play well.


Anyway I too like folding preflop without a doubt. I actually think raising is close to terrible given the stack sizes. I think I agree with nath that checking the flop would be my play, usually with the idea of checkraising the button if he should bet, and reevaluating on the turn based on the action and what comes.

[aejones]

[ QUOTE ]
btw just a word of warning, when you raise in spots like this with hands like 98s, 87s, you are going to flop 2nd pair a very reasonable % of the time. It can be extremely difficult to play well in spots like this, and of course especially so when the pot is multiway.

It helps to be a bit deeper IMO because then the pot isn't so important to you, and you can kind of play passively on a 2nd pair type of flop without having gigantic regrets. I mean right now you have 34k and the pot is 14k, a sizable % of your stack. So you really want the pot but you also don't want to risk 34k to win it usually. Meanwhile you don't want to risk 10k and then fold for 24k more when it's so reasonable for your opponent to have a draw. But ok that's not really the main reason not to raise here, it's just random musing. I've seen so many posts lately where someone raises with a hand like this and then flops some hand that's extremely difficult to play well.


Anyway I too like folding preflop without a doubt. I actually think raising is close to terrible given the stack sizes. I think I agree with nath that checking the flop would be my play, usually with the idea of checkraising the button if he should bet, and reevaluating on the turn based on the action and what comes.




[/ QUOTE ]

the person who played this hand knows how to play in tight spots both deep and short, and is very capable of opening this hand and making it +EV, and can play second pair with the best of 'em, dont worry about taht

(it's not me i'm jsut sa ying)

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
btw just a word of warning, when you raise in spots like this with hands like 98s, 87s, you are going to flop 2nd pair a very reasonable % of the time. It can be extremely difficult to play well in spots like this, and of course especially so when the pot is multiway.

It helps to be a bit deeper IMO because then the pot isn't so important to you, and you can kind of play passively on a 2nd pair type of flop without having gigantic regrets. I mean right now you have 34k and the pot is 14k, a sizable % of your stack. So you really want the pot but you also don't want to risk 34k to win it usually. Meanwhile you don't want to risk 10k and then fold for 24k more when it's so reasonable for your opponent to have a draw. But ok that's not really the main reason not to raise here, it's just random musing. I've seen so many posts lately where someone raises with a hand like this and then flops some hand that's extremely difficult to play well.


Anyway I too like folding preflop without a doubt. I actually think raising is close to terrible given the stack sizes. I think I agree with nath that checking the flop would be my play, usually with the idea of checkraising the button if he should bet, and reevaluating on the turn based on the action and what comes.




[/ QUOTE ]

the person who played this hand knows how to play in tight spots both deep and short, and is very capable of opening this hand and making it +EV, and can play second pair with the best of 'em, dont worry about taht

(it's not me i'm jsut sa ying)

[/ QUOTE ]


lol ok, I still don't like opening it at all given the game situations. Just seems dreadful to me. Can't stand any raise, we have 2 shortstacks who are desperate and we have an already described loose giant stack who is on the button and is the only player with more chips than us. Just seems silly to want to play this hand given the tournament situation/info.

[mikeJ]

Flop: 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif T/images/graemlins/heart.gif
BB checks, Hero bets 8500, Button calls, BB folds

Turn: 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (pot ~31k)
Hero?

What's the plan? Hero has 25k left.

Also, I am not hero.

[THEOSU]

hero pushes real good assuming BB checks.

[nath]

Hero definitely jams that turn

[LSgambler]

Thats a good card for you, shove.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
Flop: 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif T/images/graemlins/heart.gif
BB checks, Hero bets 8500, Button calls, BB folds

Turn: 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (pot ~31k)
Hero?

What's the plan? Hero has 25k left.

Also, I am not hero.

[/ QUOTE ]


Yeah I'd definitely go allin at this point, pot is gigantic (larger than stack) and if we are behind they could have plenty of outs if we just check. Meanwhile we can't really fold if they bet, especially since they are aggressive.

[DDBeast]

As played, pushing the turn is the only option.

As for the flop, I like a check/shove, given button is aggressive. Otherwise I'd be more apt to bet.